Katherine May (00:06)

Hey, welcome to the Clearing podcast and our first episode. I’m really excited. I am outside today recording a little preamble for you, an ambling preamble. I’m in a place on the outskirts of Whitstable called Crow Park.

I saw it first of all on a map and thought it was such an excellent name that I absolutely had to visit it. And it’s just a big field, you know where cows often graze. It’s surrounded by woodland, which as I speak to you is the most gorgeous array of autumn colours.

kind of bronzes, yellows, oranges, with a sort of swathe of coniferous forest cutting through it, still green. I can see that in the background. But I’m walking in wide open space, which is just lovely. It’s a pretty grey day. There’s a bit of a breeze, which you can probably hear on my mic.

I am happy. Ooh, I can see a really good mushroom in the background that I can’t get to through a fence. Damn it. ⁓

it’s a big parasol mushroom. I cannot verify because I’m not going to climb over some barbed wire just for that. Well welcome, how are you anyway? I hope today finds you well. I am here to introduce a recording with Cariad Lloyd, lovely Cariad, who has become a friend of mine simply because

we’ve often been put on the same bill at literary festivals. And you kind of get to know someone in those circumstances. The life of a writer on tour, and God knows I do very little of it if I can avoid it because I find it very tiring, but ⁓ doing literary events.

is quite a weird experience a lot of the time. You are, variably, either kind of, I don’t know how to put this, kind of shoved from pillar to post a bit. You often travel long distances for an hour of appearance and then all the way back again. It is quite,

intense I think and there’s always a lot of improvisation and it’s always just such a joy to do that with somebody who is full of good humour. Some experiences are more ego laden than that let’s just say and sometimes everyone’s just tired and cross and exhausted and scared which you know are a valid set of emotions anyway.

Cariad and I are old hands at interviewing each other and for that reason and also because she is just one of the most brilliant people I know, I invited her to do my very first podcast episode for The Clearing and I was delighted when she said yes. Those of you in the States may not know Cariad as well as the people in the UK.

She is often popping up on TV for us on things like QI. She’s very funny. ⁓ But also she’s very well known for her podcast, Grief Cast, which has now ended, where she invited people to memorialise a lost loved one in the most elegant and lovely way.

letting people draw out the light and shade. She’s just such a brilliant holder of space. But I think after a few years of Grief cast, it was time for that to end. And so now you may know her better as the co-host of Weirdos Book Club with her long time best mate, Sara Pascoe. ⁓ I love listening to Weirdos Book Club. They really go deep into every book. ⁓

And there’s not a sense of any like literary snobbery or ⁓ any performativeness from them. You really get their 100 % authentic approach to a book. And it just feels like talking with your girlfriends about, ⁓ you know, a book that you’ve loved. I find it a joy to listen to. And if you haven’t do, I did record an episode, but you know, no obligations there.

But she also is ⁓ a brilliant improv performer. ⁓ She performs with a troupe called Austentatious ⁓ They have a long run at the Vaudeville Theatre and you can catch them there regularly. And next year, in fact, they’re going on tour around the UK. So do look out for that in 2026. I mean, the list goes on and that would be enough.

But she also writes books. She has a book about grief, of course, which is great. But lately she’s turned her hand to children’s writing. And she’s published two children’s books this year, which honestly, given that I managed to maybe publish a book every three years, I find breathtaking. Earlier in the year, she published a book called Where Did She Go? which is a beautiful moving picture book.

which is designed to help young children come to terms with grief. ⁓ And slightly more ⁓ happily, the paperback of her lovely children’s novel, Lydia Marmalade and the Christmas Wish ⁓ is out now, ready for Christmas. I’ve had a little read of it because I really love children’s books and it is such a joy.

one of those really nice books to read with your kids. It’s festive, it’s funny, it’s dramatic, it’s just yeah delightful. So yeah I am interviewing quite the Renaissance woman today, trying not to be intimidated by the sheer amount of energy and talent in the room. But I think we had a really

interesting conversation that began with this discomfort that I think we all feel about whether we’re allowed to even engage in a conversation about retreat and rest in these times when so many people are denied anything like it and denied any let up in the hostilities. And I was really

grateful that she was happy to explore that right at the beginning of this podcast series because it’s my belief that we must not let go of the softer things in life even as we know what a privilege they are. It’s almost like we’re the keepers of those things now. But those of you that are in need of a little bit more soul soothing than that at the moment…

you’ll be glad to know that we moved on to, well, I won’t spoil it for you, but a truly fantastical vision of a retreat that belongs in a fairy tale book in the most gorgeous way. I think you’re going to love it. From the conversations I’ve had for this podcast.

already. One of the things I’ve really noticed is that people’s idea of retreat is so varied and so surprising. We tend to think of it as like an archetype, maybe. Imagine that we all want to burrow down in the same place when we escape from the world. But that’s not true at all.

And there’s just this delicious insight into somebody’s imaginative landscape. I think you’ll really enjoy it.

just passing a whole load of deep blue sloes which somehow got missed by all the foragers this winter. I’m not a big fan of sloe gin myself but I did once ⁓ lacto-ferment some sloes to create something that tasted a bit like an olive but which I really didn’t fancy eating when the time came. ⁓

That is how it goes with many of my weird, pickling expeditions. Anyway, I’ll be back after the recording to say bye bye. But I hope you enjoy it. See you later.

Katherine May (10:22)

welcome to The Clearing. How are you today? It’s lovely to see you.

Cariad (10:26)

I’m good thanks. Yeah, I mean like, I don’t know. I woke up and I was like dancing around the kitchen with my kids and you know when you’re like, that’s unusual for mum. Mum’s in a good mood, isn’t she? I was like, wow, normally it’s like just, ⁓ just get your shoes on, stop, stop. And I’m, yeah, like they looked a bit concerned as well. They were like.

Katherine May (10:36)

Wow, yeah. What’s happening?

Well, that may be that you’re ready for a retreat then in that case, that could be the sign.

Cariad (10:50)

Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, yeah, the sign, losing your mind. But no, I’m

very well, thank you.

Katherine May (10:56)

In a moment, I’m gonna invite you into my lovely clearing in the forest. ⁓ But first, I’d just love to ask, you know, what brings you to the need for a retreat? How’s life been? It’s been a year, hasn’t it? It’s been a year.

Cariad (11:07)

Oh, that’s a big question, Katherine It’s just,

mean, I am a fan of the theory that when David Bowie died in 2016, the timelines

you know, went off where they were supposed to, and there was a glitch, and our great savior left

Katherine May (11:20)

divided. Yeah.

Cariad (11:25)

come back. Like, that’s what we’ve taught to believe for 2,000 years. He just left. He went, I’m done.

Katherine May (11:29)

Yet. Yet.

Cariad (11:31)

So I think it’s easy to forget, isn’t

that we’ve been living in strange times for quite a while. And my

was actually born

Katherine May (11:39)

Mmm.

Cariad (11:41)

2016. And that was the year everyone said, God, this is the worst year. This is the worst year ever. I was thinking, yeah, I was like, ⁓ gosh, well, I’m becoming a mother. So it’s a strange experience. That’s when Donald Trump came to power. There was the absolutely hideous Grenfell incident in London. Yeah, because I was pregnant throughout these moments. I remember really thinking, gosh, what my…

Katherine May (11:42)

really?

She’s part of the great diversion.

So it’s 2016, yeah.

Cariad (12:05)

am I bringing this child into? Yeah, and so I think we forget, and then you add COVID to that, and then you add Donald Trump being elected twice. We’ve been living through strange times for a long time. So think sometimes we go, ⁓ this past year has been crazy. I think we need to be kinder to ourselves and go, we’ve been living in strange times for nearly a decade. it’s no wonder we are all quite frazzled. Like, that’s okay, that’s okay. Yes.

Katherine May (12:06)

That’s quite apocalyptic for a pregnancy.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, that’s really true. Yeah, there’s that kind of continuous tiredness that we’re experiencing that’s

just that feeling that nothing has let up for ages and it just never ever stops.

Cariad (12:37)

Yeah, yeah

and I think, I don’t know, I’m sure you remember this, I remember there being times where you, I know maybe this is, someone would call me privileged and say there’s always been something happening but there was definitely times where you were not, you were less aware so you’d think to yourself, I’m worried about this small thing in my life and generally the world seems, you know, scary but also, whereas I just think now we’re just constantly feeling, I mean, you know.

Katherine May (13:06)

Yeah,

we are living with a kind of level of global worry that is almost too big to process, I think. There’s no good news anymore.

Cariad (13:08)

a lot.

Mmm.

It’s too big to process

in terms of global politics. It’s too big to process. And then, you you sit there thinking, God, I wish I wish it all stopped being so awful. And then you remember that the world is burning. It’s like, you know, so it’s very difficult to even even if I imagine, well, you know, all these political leaders will suddenly have an enlightenment and realize that they are selfish, horrible people and they need to change their hearts and think of humanity.

Katherine May (13:25)

Yeah.

Cariad (13:44)

And then I remember, even the time it takes for them to realise that, we’re like, well, well done. Unfortunately, you’ve become enlightened just in time for the polar ice caps to disappear. So thanks for that. So yeah, the sound’s really bleak and I’m sorry to listeners, but that is, I guess that’s what we’re dealing with, isn’t it? Yeah.

Katherine May (13:52)

you

I think we’re all in a really bleak place.

And it’s, mean, this is, this is the first episode of this podcast I’m recording. And so it’s, it’s great that you’ve produced me such a, no, it’s great that you’ve produced me such a perfect intro to the themes of the podcast.

Cariad (14:09)

I’m so sorry.

Episode guys,

look guys. We’re fucked.

Katherine May (14:17)

This is

Cariad (14:17)

fucked.

Katherine May (14:18)

Thank you so much.

Cariad (14:18)

This is bad.

Katherine May (14:19)

I mean, I spend a lot of my time saying to people, it’s really OK to take a break from this because you actually have to survive the long haul. it’s definitely a privilege to be able to take a break and to even dream of taking a break.

Cariad (14:24)

yes

Yeah.

Katherine May (14:34)

if we don’t, if we don’t kind of restore ourselves or tend to our bodies and our souls in this hideous moment, then we can’t last.

Cariad (14:46)

Yeah.

Katherine May (14:46)

the long

term that it’s going to require to solve this as well. There’s the optimism in it.

Cariad (14:49)

Well, that’s, yeah, I

mean, maybe that’s why I was dancing around the kitchen this morning to, it was Talking Heads, Road to Nowhere came on and it’s just got such a like, I know, my life, but it’s such an upbeat, it’s such an upbeat Road to Nowhere, like, do do, do do do, and I was like marching around the kitchen with my little boy and he loves that song and he was like swinging the tea towel around and you’re like, yeah, you kind of have to

Katherine May (14:53)

you

god, that’s bleak as well!

A bleak bleak yeah bleak song

Cariad (15:15)

you know, troubadour, like.

man the trumpet to dance your way through this chaos otherwise like you said like what it doesn’t it doesn’t change anything if you don’t rest it doesn’t change anything so I think a lot of us are going through that aren’t we no that’s true yeah yeah and you said it’s a real the tension between knowing you are privileged you are privileged to have a roof over your head food in your fridge you know being able to

Katherine May (15:27)

Yeah, I think that’s right. No, and you can’t affect change if you’re not rested actually on some level. Yeah.

Cariad (15:44)

walk out the door and not fear for your life, mostly as a woman in 2025.

It is a privilege, yeah. But then also, I often think, maybe this is a stupid thing to say, but I think that’s just being human is needing a moment, break. And if it was your country that this was happening to, the people, if you could, if suddenly reversed, those people in the other countries would also, you’d want.

Katherine May (15:48)

50-50 that one, surely.

Mm-mm.

Cariad (16:12)

I wouldn’t be like, no, you must be facing this every day. I’d be

fucking

you can.

Why not? Why do we all, we can’t all stare into the flames. Yeah, it’s difficult though, because obviously it’s said with a huge amount of privilege, which I wrestle with, I don’t know. What do we do with it? What do we do?

Katherine May (16:17)

Yeah. Yeah, we just cannot process the level of stuff that we’re… Yeah. Yeah, that’s right.

Yeah. I don’t know.

I don’t know. I think that’s one of the great questions of the age, honestly, because we’re witnessing everything at once, actually, in a way, like it’s closer to us than it’s ever been. And I don’t think we know how to deal with that level of witness, that level of kind of contact with suffering. It’s just, it’s vast.

Cariad (16:36)

Hmm.

Yeah.

No,

I’m a bit, there’s another brilliant podcast called Empire Podcast. I know you’ve ever listened to that. I love that podcast.

Katherine May (16:56)

⁓ yeah, it’s an amazing podcast.

Cariad (17:00)

I think again, like we could all do with this, like just generally we’ll all listen to that. It would make a lot more sense. But when they’re describing, you know, these horrific, horrific things that happen and, know, particularly the East India series and they’re talking about the knowledge that got back to England was so small and it would take, you know, obviously when there was a huge massacre, that would get back, but it would be back months afterwards. then there would be this debate of, who should be culpable for this? But that debate would be so small.

Katherine May (17:17)

Mmm.

Cariad (17:30)

in parliament and within men and most, yeah, most everyday folk wouldn’t really have a full understanding of it in the way that we are. yeah, this is, guess that’s what we’re talking about. Privilege is like, are privileged that we get this information. We would never have been given this information as citizens beforehand, but equally, yeah.

Katherine May (17:40)

Mm.

No, we’re watching it unfold in real time.

Cariad (17:52)

But now we have a responsibility

without privilege, but we have no power. So it’s like a weird, I’m witnessing, but I have I’m not, you know, a politician at the time who can say, right, I’m going to parliament, I’m going to say, you know, Clive of India should be hauled through the courts for what he’s taken part in. I’m just a person on my phone going, I think that’s awful, but I don’t. What do I? How do I? Yeah, I’ve given some money to charity and I’ve spoken to someone else, but.

Katherine May (18:09)

Yeah.

don’t know what to do. Yeah.

Cariad (18:22)

It never feels enough, it It doesn’t feel like power.

Katherine May (18:25)

No, it doesn’t. I would say that the problem is that it feels like, you know, it feels like there should, there is something that you could probably do that would have an impact on it, but it’s not clear what. And so because it’s, you know, like the, the story of the kind of colonial massacres would have come to us a couple of months later because of the nature of communications at the time, whereas we are seeing it happening on social media and it feels therefore like you’re somehow able to act and yet.

Cariad (18:36)

Mm.

Katherine May (18:55)

you sort of aren’t at the same time and I think that that is like part of that very particular exhaustion of our times really. No it’s fine we’re all there on a more personal level Cariad ⁓

Cariad (18:57)

Yeah.

Well, I’m sorry to be so bleak. I’m sorry. I’m so sorry. I’m like, yeah, like I’m supposed to be a

comedian, but like this is the thing, isn’t it? It’s hard to do comedy right now. It’s hard to like be flippant about stuff. It’s really hard.

Katherine May (19:17)

Yeah, it is and it’s hard to know what tone to take really.

Cariad (19:21)

Or to be creative,

which I think is obviously what you’re leaning towards with this wonderful podcast. It feels indulgent when we’re faced with what we’re doing, what the world is looking at. But, yeah.

Katherine May (19:27)

Yeah. Yeah.

It does, it does. But I also think that there’s

something about retaining a promised land in your mind of what it could be, know, like dreaming of peace, I think, is something that we all have access to. And it is mostly just the dream rather than the actuality. But kind of holding something beautiful in our minds might just be one of the ways that we can.

like maybe create it in the future, maybe have half a chance of creating it. I just, it feels so important to cling on to the peace that we grew up in. Like you and I grew up in this extended era of what felt like increasing peace and safety. And I felt so optimistic. ⁓ Like I thought we’d solved it. I thought we’d kind of won. I thought we’d put some stuff behind us.

Cariad (20:27)

You know, but this is it. We grew up in a very strange, we also

grew up in a strange time which seemed normal to us but actually was the blip.

and we just didn’t know it was the blip. So we were like, ⁓ this is normal. And also, as ever, there were hideous things going on that we just didn’t know about because it wasn’t being reported or it was our country, was other countries that we were friends with that were doing those hideous, hideous things. Yeah, it’s, I don’t know. I genuinely feel bad for starting like this, Katherine, I’m really sorry.

Katherine May (20:41)

Yeah.

Cariad (21:02)

Really sorry sort of just like came out because you asked me how I was and I’m like, I’m neurodivergent I have no ability to go. Yeah fine. I’m fine Why don’t people want to talk to me in the playground? Why why this is like valid? Why are they so yeah, why people said I’m too much and I’m intense I don’t understand. This is light chat, right? Light chat like let’s go back through 500 years of colonialism to work out why we are here now That’s my vibe

Katherine May (21:04)

Nope.

It’s good.

Blah. ⁓

Why do the other mothers find me so intense?

You

Cariad (21:31)

I just can’t unsee it. I know. Well, anyway, to listeners, I’m really sorry. I didn’t mean, I didn’t set out to be so bleak, but this is the times we are living in. We are definitely living in the times where, yeah, dreaming of hope and peace does feel important. That does feel important, actually, because I don’t think, I don’t know, I don’t think not dreaming of that is also not helpful. You know, I’m always trying to think, well, what’s useful? What’s practical? And I don’t feel like…

Katherine May (21:31)

I’m here for that vibe, honestly.

They’re right there with you, honestly.

Yeah.

No, that’s right.

Cariad (22:01)

giving up is helpful. That doesn’t feel helpful. It feels like we have to, as the privileged ones, we have to maintain that voice and that peace and be like, another way is an option. And even if you’re having those conversations, you know, with family members and people, you know, again, just trying to like talk about this stuff and connection, it’s important that you come from it from an, I guess, an optimistic as possible point of view.

Katherine May (22:30)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s really, really true. And I think those of us, know, like bringing up children and or supporting like younger generations, like we’ve got to offer them something. We can’t just offer them the apocalypse. It’s not good enough.

Cariad (22:31)

to affect small change.

This is it, isn’t it? Yeah. I know, I know. It’s really

difficult. I think,

and obviously not to say, being a parent is harder. It’s just

as a parent, especially as a parent of two children who bicker, my job is often to police, you know, to be like, hey, that’s not fair. You shouldn’t do that. That’s not yours. ⁓ And then you’re, yeah. And then you’re faced with the news and you’re like, my God, why is it someone being like, no, you are, did you ask anybody if you could do that? Then no. ⁓

Katherine May (23:04)

You’re the peacemaker.

Yeah.

I feel like I could take that role in the world. Like

if I had a role on the world stage, I would be the banger together of heads. I’d be happy to do it. It’s not a problem. I’ve been a teacher. I’ve got a teacher voice to rely on. Like, no, you know, like someone needs to do that.

Cariad (23:19)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

feel like when I listen to the news, I, you know, I’m in the kitchen, the radio’s on, and I will say to two children, like, you cannot just grab that, you know, you need to ask. And they’ve said no. And that’s important. We listen to them though. And then you listen to the news and you’re like, that’s not what the adults are doing. This is, but you’re trying to instill a morality that, yeah, it feels like the world is.

Katherine May (23:48)

Hmm. No.

Cariad (23:55)

eventually they’re going to get there and go, ⁓ hang on a minute. Everyone else here does what they want. So yeah, it’s a very weird juxtaposition sometimes of trying to teach morality and kindness. But then again, that feels important to go, well, can I at least put these two out in the world as kind people? Can I at least do that? Because I mean, will I be hung, drawn and quartered for their carbon content?

Katherine May (23:59)

is deeply disappointing.

Cariad (24:22)

Eventually. So can I at go, yes, but they were nice? I don’t know.

Katherine May (24:27)

Well, I mean, it does feel like my clearing in the forest that I’m about to invite you into is kind of under, like we’re ducking under a fog of smoke, really. ⁓ But that’s OK, because it’s still there. So ⁓ welcome to my little clearing. ⁓ I would love to know how you picture this, like where in the world it is, what kind of landscape is it, this place where you would retreat to in these…

Cariad (24:30)

Ugh. I bloody need it. ⁓

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Yep.

I can’t go. I’m ready.

Katherine May (24:56)

really dark and desperate times.

Cariad (24:58)

Well, I’m intense and I’m over dramatic. I don’t know if you noticed. ⁓ So I definitely imagine like forest. But it’s funny as you said that I was like, I have a man imagined kind of English, Welsh, Scottish, you know, our island style of tree and density. ⁓ Having spent a lot of time in Wales as a child as well and many, you know, a lot of time in wandering woodlands in England as a child.

Katherine May (25:02)

No comment.

Mmm.

Cariad (25:28)

So I definitely imagine that kind of like that lovely, you know, the oaks and all the moss and the lichen and like that kind of, that kind of clearing. And I am, I’m a terrible fantasist, I think. And I was obsessed with Lord of the Rings. My whole family were obsessed with Lord of the Rings. We’re like, you know, one of those embarrassing Tolkien families. And I think it’s, definitely has Lord of the Rings vibes about it. You know, that kind of like that.

Katherine May (25:35)

Cool, lovely.

you

Hahaha!

Okay, so

it’s quite mystical, quite kind of ancient and yeah.

Cariad (25:58)

It’s mystical, it’s yeah, ancient, magical.

You know, the trees feel like they could move. They could speak to you. Like it’s definitely not part, like, yeah, I don’t want any pastoral, like, there’s a farm nearby. I want like huge, giant, ancient woodland that has been here for a long time. Yeah, I think I can’t help but have an edge of melancholy about my…

Katherine May (26:06)

oooo

Brilliant.

slightly spooky though.

You

Cariad (26:26)

myself. So yeah, it’s I mean, I’m a terrible scaredy cat. ⁓ So not too spooky. But I definitely don’t I don’t like I get very angry about like, which I’m sure you can appreciate that the prettiness that is put upon ⁓ English and Welsh, particularly countryside, the prettification of it, because I think you should feel a bit scared when you walk into a forest, right? It’s not yours. Like, yeah.

Katherine May (26:49)

think so and I, there’s

something very red in tooth and claw about English woodland, like proper

woodland. It’s not,

Cariad (26:55)

Yeah.

Katherine May (26:57)

it doesn’t feel ⁓ sanitised really. ⁓ It should feel a little like you don’t know what’s going to be round next corner. Like I love that sort of sense of, it always feels like the paths shift in the woodlands as I walk through it all through the year. And there’s something about that that you think what’s there?

Cariad (27:00)

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I want to feel like if I saw a fairy, I wouldn’t be like, what? What’s that doing next to that cafe? Like, I want to feel like, yeah, there’s elves, there’s fairies, there’s something underneath. But, but the I’m they like me, so I’m OK. That’s what I want to feel like. I’m a respecter of the forest. So everyone’s I’m friends. It does, doesn’t it? does, doesn’t it? Cariad I…

Katherine May (27:18)

what’s gonna come out at me.

Hehehehehe

Ooh.

Okay, yeah. Your friends with the fairies. I mean, name like Cariad, I think, just works so well for communing with the fairies. It’s perfect. It’s ideal.

Cariad (27:48)

Yeah, and they all rushed

towards me and I feed them little acorns and yeah, that’s definitely my childhood fantasies of erm wandering around the forest and communicating with magical creatures. erm So yeah, so that’s what I’d like. It’s funny, isn’t it? Because when you said, what do you imagine? was like, ⁓ I can’t imagine anything else. What are other people imagining?

Katherine May (28:02)

Mmm, I love this.

It’s

so funny, isn’t it? You have a really specific picture. Are you in a certain time of year as well, I wonder, in your imagining? Like, is are the bluebells out or… Yeah, I mean, obviously I’m always in a wintry forest, completely. I mean, I don’t want leaves. What am I going to do with leaves?

Cariad (28:13)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I’m a big fan

of turning. Surprisingly being a summer baby, I don’t like it too hot. And there’s something weird about being in the forest when it’s too hot, isn’t it? it’s nice, but also there’s a part of you that’s like, it’s cold, but it’s hot. What’s happening? Yeah, I should be on a beach. So I do really love spring and autumn. Like I really love, yeah, the flowers, bluebells or crocuses that that awakening I find so…

Katherine May (28:33)

Mm.

why am I here

Mm.

Cariad (28:53)

like deeply heartening, like I find that is like my sense of it’s gonna be alright, it’s gonna be alright. And ⁓ the Autumn this time at the moment particularly, we went up to the woods the other day and it was just like, I just sound like such an idiot, but like it was golden because every single tree was yellow or red. And so I was trying to say to the kids, how golden it is. They were just like, yeah, can I carry this massive stick?

Katherine May (29:10)

⁓ it’s so gorgeous at this time of year yeah.

They don’t care.

Can I hit something with it?

Cariad (29:21)

Yeah, you can, but please

can you mind me? No, just mind me.

So yeah, I don’t really like high summer or high winter are not my faves. I like when it’s like, yeah, yeah, it’s like something’s changing, it’s okay. Things are moving. I like the sense of movement.

Katherine May (29:27)

You

Hmm, it’s going to be one of the transitional seasons either way.

it’s going to be lovely.

That’s really nice. do you so what like what is your retreat? Is it a cabin in those woods or are you like more after a spa hotel?

Cariad (29:50)

What depends

I wanted to ask you like what what what are we imagining like is this a real retreat or is this like

Katherine May (29:58)

I think given that there are fairies in your forest, we’ve already gone past the real quite substantially.

Cariad (29:59)

Yeah.

Because in real life, yeah, I’d love a spa. Like, my God, yes, please. But like, if we’re kind of, you know, painting a picture, then no, I’d probably like a tree house lined with moss that looks out onto the stars. yeah, like the bed’s lined with moss. And it looks out.

Katherine May (30:18)

on the inside. Lovely. Moss wallpaper.

Cariad (30:24)

It’s covered but there’s like a window that looks out into the stars but it never rains obviously I’m never going to get wet and cold. I don’t It’s kind of like Rivendell, Rivendell vibes

Katherine May (30:32)

wouldn’t you like that rain hammering

on your ceiling in the night? When you’re in and dry, the sound of rain is one of the best things, I think.

Cariad (30:36)

that would be nice. That’s

okay, but it just can’t be that horrible English rain where it’s like everything is a muddy and disgusting. Like I don’t want… Yeah, fine. mystical rain But yeah, I’m the Lord, I hate to, such a geek, but the Lord of the Rings books I was very into and The Hobbit. And then when the films came out and like, they showed you Rivendell, which is if you don’t know where the elves live, I was like, yeah, that’s…

Katherine May (30:43)

Yeah, it would produce no mud. It’s fine. It’s mystical rain.

Cariad (31:04)

That is what I’ve imagined. I thought the visuals on that film were so amazing on those many films. Yeah, Rivendell vibes, definitely. But probably not as… Yeah, I’d take Rivendell. Although maybe on the outskirts of Rivendell, because Rivendell itself is a bit neat and tidy, isn’t it? Everything’s so beautiful and so hallowed. And I would break something. So I’d be like, I’m so sorry. ⁓ gosh, was that important? Crystal, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Katherine May (31:15)

So your retreat is in Rivendell? Yeah, sounds alright.

God, did I knock that over? no, ⁓ I’ll

pay for it, I’m sorry.

Cariad (31:34)

god, can I make another one? it was ancient. Sorry. God,

I’m so sorry. So yeah, like the outskirts maybe, like adjacent to Rivendell, but also maybe near some witches as well. I’ll mix my genres. I don’t mind. Mm, tree house.

Katherine May (31:50)

So you’re in a beautiful tree house, there’s moss on

the inside of the walls. What facilities do you have? Is there an open fire? Is there a hot tub? Like, where are you? ⁓ Yeah. How are you situated? Okay. ⁓

Cariad (32:01)

May I clarify that the moss is not on the walls?

Because that’s making me think of bugs. I think I would bug attract. We’re a bug free space. Well, within reason, would like the bed lined with moss and a blanket maybe over the top so it’s soft, but you’re not in contact with too many bugs. not, look, I want there to be some bugs. I want the ecosystem to exist, but I don’t want… No, I think moss in the walls. Maybe one, a feature moss wall. That might be nice.

Katherine May (32:08)

Okay, we are a bug free space.

Mmm.

but just not in your tree house.

A feature moss wall Okay.

Cariad (32:33)

nice.

I think I’ve got a fire, yeah I’ve got a fire because I want to make hot chocolate. It’s like a little stove. I’m also heavily influenced by Brambly Hedge. Do you ever read Brambly Hedge?

Katherine May (32:38)

Mmm.

⁓

I have literally just written about those in my newsletter today. I love, it’s only a tiny mention, but I am obsessed with Brambly Hedge. Yeah, I’ll tell you exactly what it is. It’s the cutaways of interiors with lots of tiny little perfect things in them. just,

Cariad (32:46)

⁓ I haven’t read your newsletter today.

Yeah, so, Brownby Hedge.

trees. The detail.

the detail. I know I used to stare at that for hours as a kid just like looking at all the cups and the pans and the pine cones and yeah, I’d like a Brambly Hedge treehouse vibe please because I don’t think I’d maybe I’d do it actually we have a tree house at the top and then you can go into the tree trunk Brambly Hedge style if it rains if you need to but it’s decked out in that kind of beautiful mouse style where like

Katherine May (33:19)

Okay.

Sure. Yeah.

Cariad (33:27)

There’s also, it’s also.

Katherine May (33:28)

and you’ve got presumably

you’ve then got a kitchen full of little jars of jam in there like perfect little pickled things. Yeah. Yeah.

Cariad (33:31)

I’ve got a lovely country kitchen. I’ve got really nice country kitchen. Wouldn’t be out of place in

a very expensive country mansion, but it’s in a giant oak tree.

Katherine May (33:40)

No,

absolutely no problem at all. And in fact, that makes me wonder, would you in your dream retreat, would you cook for yourself or would food like miraculously appear by little mice?

Cariad (33:52)

I’m not a, yeah, yeah.

I’m not a good cook. I’m a very bad cook. Mostly because just don’t care. And I’m not very good at, if I don’t care, can’t, my talents disappear. But I’m a very good baker. So I would happily make cakes and I’d be very happy to make cakes in my country tree house. That would be delight. But yeah.

Katherine May (34:15)

With

your sweet tooth I feel like you could happily live on cake for the entire course of your retreat really. Yeah.

Cariad (34:18)

I think I’d be fine. Yeah, I could do

like a savoury muffin. Cheese and ham muffin. I love a cheese and ham muffin. I’ve got some good recipes for savoury muffins, breakfast muffins. I think I’d probably be all right. I’d definitely, I mean,

Katherine May (34:23)

Yes, you could.

Hmm?

Cariad (34:33)

maybe that’s why like autumn is quite a good time, isn’t it? Because you can gather berries. I love berries so much. So can go and get blackberries and red currants and all that sort of loveliness and make jams and pickles and then just live on toast and jam throughout the winter.

Katherine May (34:38)

Yes, a little bit of foraging.

I mean there’s vitamins surely, that’s fine.

Cariad (34:50)

I look quite like a mouse and I think I’d fit in well with the mice people. I think the mice would accept me as one of their own. I think they’d be like, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katherine May (34:58)

They would! Yeah, you’d be invited to their lovely summer weddings and all

of the lovely Brambly Hedge things that you might do. Okay.

Cariad (35:04)

Yeah, yeah, they’d be, they’d share

their jams with me.

Katherine May (35:08)

I think that just sounds lovely. I would love to live in Brambly Hedge world. That’s just ideal. Okay. So what do you bring with you? What kind of cherished objects would you bring with you into your retreat? Like what would give you comfort or make you feel really settled there?

Cariad (35:27)

I definitely need a good blanket. Like a good du- like

Katherine May (35:30)

Mmm.

Cariad (35:31)

like good- I’m very obsessed with like sheets and

think coziness is I mean this is why all this kind of cottagecore and like autumn pumpkin core is is so strong at the moment isn’t it because we’re just looking for this kind of ideal world where it’s like Everything’s okay. Everything’s okay in this world Goblin core So yeah, I’d like a blanket, but then I’d also I’m quite a collector of trinkets, so I’m looking at my desk And I have a lot of trinkets, so I think I would probably bring some things So on my desk well

Katherine May (35:41)

Mm.

Goblin core. Yeah.

Mmm.

knicknacks.

Cariad (36:04)

I owe this to you. I’m doing some great product placement here. The Winterfold candles that you first gifted me. my God. So I’ve got three on my desk at the moment. One is currently burning. So I I was going to speak to you. thought.

Katherine May (36:08)

We love Winterfold

I’m burning a Winterfold. Winterfold would be delighted by this. You’d think they pay us. They don’t. We just love them. I’m burning Winterfold right now too. Which Winterfold are you? I’m burning Equinox.

Cariad (36:19)

They’ll be delighted by this.

I What one are you burning. yeah.

I didn’t get I haven’t got it. I’m burning Misty Mornings because I was like, it’s technically still morning so I can get way that I nearly bought it. And then I have lots of nice. God, love Winterfold. And then I’ve got like I’ve got pine cones on my desk that like my son has bought me and I’ve got ⁓ a Playmobil unicorn that my daughter gave to me a long time ago. Yeah. And then like

Katherine May (36:30)

I love Misty Morning.

It’s kind of slightly smokey. It’s nice.

Love, Playmobil

Cariad (36:52)

I’m trying to look now, like conkers and a pair of Lego scissors from, like this little Lego scissors that’s so cute. And I’ve got a lovely, I’m trying to reach it without knocking my microphone. I this amazing artist. my God, what’s her name? ⁓ I’ve got amazing artist called Meg Fatharly. And she did this lovely thing. Look, it says, what if it all goes right? On like embossed. Yeah, so I keep

Katherine May (37:00)

You

⁓

Cariad (37:20)

guess that’s what we’re talking about, isn’t it? Like small things. I’m currently holding a tiger’s eye in my hand, which I also, ⁓ is my birthstone, so I like to hold onto that. So yeah, I think I’d need to bedeck it very quickly with little things that I can put meaning on, which I’m quite good at doing. So I would like some of these things to be there to remind me, probably, of my beloved.

Katherine May (37:27)

⁓

Mmm.

Yeah.

Cariad (37:45)

children but also I think I’d collect them quite quick. There’d be a blackberry that Mrs Mouse had given me that ⁓ had frozen in ice and was all lovely and frosty or something and then like a leaf that Mr Fox left at my door. I’m very good at that.

Katherine May (38:04)

I, that’s,

you’d probably go out very quickly and bring stuff in. I think I’m really like you in that I, I’m not particularly sentimental about things in a big way, but there’s always like a little arrangement of, of items around me that sort of seem to matter in that moment. You know, some, normally some stones and yeah, pine cones are a big one, shells, like little twigs, like a little, a little twig.

Cariad (38:07)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Katherine May (38:28)

some kind, like a little objet. I, yeah, at the moment, look, I’ll show you, I’ve got little elf people around my desk. Little wooden elf people.

Cariad (38:34)

I love that.

They are gorgeous. That’s exactly what you want. ⁓

Katherine May (38:40)

Yeah, yes

that’s right you just need a selection of elven goods really to rearrange as your day goes on.

Cariad (38:46)

Yes.

And then I should say, the other thing that I have quite a lot around here is little Moomins Talking of other books that have kind of inspired me, I’ve got my little Snork Maiden pen there. I

Katherine May (38:53)

Mmm.

Cariad (38:59)

keep Moomin things I

Katherine May (38:59)

little Moomin things.

Cariad (39:02)

your little wooden person, it’s sort of like idea. There’s an idea isn’t here. There’s an idea here that there are other creatures that are looking after the small details. And I think.

Katherine May (39:12)

It feels

like your house is full of little tiny kind of fairy workers almost, you know, like the mice or or little elven folk. Like it feels like a very enchanted sort of fairy tale space where everything’s being repaired and looked after by these little lovely people.

Cariad (39:17)

Mmm.

I think I like the idea that I’m not alone.

I wrote a book about it. I like the idea that, oh, I’m very good at it. I’m just dropping these plugs like very easily. But yeah, I think there’s something in that that you’re…

Katherine May (39:33)

Yeah.

That’s a great plug incidentally, that’s a really, really, really good link. Amazing.

Cariad (39:48)

I think my head is a very, very, very busy place. I know my head is a very busy place. So the idea that to be in, I find being in retreat very difficult. I find being quiet and still very difficult. It’s not something I do easily. So the idea that I could be still, but there’ll be all these other people, creatures buzzing around means that I will be living in the same mental space as I am now. It’s just, I will see it externally. And I think that’s comforting to me. And I know some people want peace.

Katherine May (39:59)

Mm-mm.

Cariad (40:18)

they want nothing but I the idea of nothing is I’ll be dead that’s when I’m ⁓

Katherine May (40:19)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, so you don’t want to be still. You

want to be, you don’t want to be alone. I mean, would you actually bring someone with you? I mean, it, doesn’t have to be solitude or retreat.

Cariad (40:37)

gonna feel because if I don’t if I say no husband to be like ⁓ but I think

Katherine May (40:42)

Really? Doesn’t everyone want to escape their husband ultimately all the time? Sorry, I probably shouldn’t say that aloud, but…

Cariad (40:46)

I know he might be sad. I would like, if

it’s a retreat, like if it’s forever, if I’m stuck here forever, I will bring people. But if it’s a retreat and I can come back to this life here, then no, I would like, I’d like some time by myself, some peace, within my terms and conditions of peace are like that they’re still buzzing and fairy tale magic and things. But like you said, yes, that is.

Katherine May (41:08)

Yeah, you’ve created a kind of busy peace which is kind of lovely, like

a sort of really, you know, industrious peace. Yeah, industrious peace.

Cariad (41:16)

That is my goal. Busy peace, yes. That is, is, could sum

me up quite well, busy peace.

Katherine May (41:24)

I love that. And so what would you be doing? Because actually there’s no sense in which you have to sit still. Is there like an activity that you’d like to retreat to get on with? there something you’d do?

Cariad (41:37)

I think, when I have done real life retreats, because sadly this one is making me like, I really want to go on this one that I’ve described. So I go away with an amazing organization called Mothers Who Write, run by Rebecca Schiller, our mutual friend, who runs these amazing retreats for mothers to get away and do writing ⁓ in Wales. And one of the biggest things I do there is read, is just reading. But I think…

Katherine May (41:45)

Yeah.

the lovely Rebecca.

Mm.

Cariad (42:07)

There’s something about reading whenever you feel like it that is, because I do most of my reading in real life on trains, like on the bus, on the tube, or before bed. That’s like my, I’ll get reading done. But when I’ve been on a retreat with ⁓ Rebecca and… ⁓

Katherine May (42:11)

yeah.

Yeah.

Cariad (42:27)

my other retreat buddies. have the, just being able to go, it’s one o’clock in the afternoon. I’ve done a bit of writing. I’m just gonna pick up my book. Just gonna pick up my book. that feels so indulgent to just, I do a lot of reading. Yes.

Katherine May (42:36)

I’m disaffected.

is lovely. Well, you do a lot of reading, don’t you? mean, you have the brilliant Weirdos Book Club podcast with Sarah

Pascoe. ⁓ And I am an avid listener. But in fact, I binge listen, which makes it even more kind of to me. I keep thinking, how do they read all these books? I mean, the pace must be extraordinary.

Cariad (43:03)

And I’m a judge on the Women’s Prize for fiction this year. Thank you. ⁓ But I am doing the most reading I’ve done, well, I guess since I was an English student, like this level of reading where they would just casually say to you, you just need to read the complete works of Chaucer by next week. And you’d be like, okay, how can I lie about that? So I did, I read it. Yeah, what, is it on video? The Wife of Bath, can I get, read that? ⁓

Katherine May (43:06)

Yes, congratulations, that’s even more reading.

No worries! Yeah, how can I effectively lie?

I sat

down one evening at university to read the entire four volumes, I think, of Das Kapital. Yeah. ⁓

Cariad (43:36)

The things you think you think. I’ll

just read this now as if it’s watching a film. my god.

Katherine May (43:42)

I had to read it for an essay and

I was like, well, let’s get down to it then, you know, like what else do you do? I don’t remember a word of it. I mean, that’s the problem with that kind of reading.

Cariad (43:47)

Let’s go! No, this is it, isn’t it? The

thing, yeah, you just don’t remember what you’re like. I did read it. No opinions on it. Yeah, no thoughts. So yeah, I do really… Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it was good! Yeah, I liked it. Really interesting. Oh, important. Yeah, really important. Yeah, glad I read it.

Katherine May (43:58)

Yeah, no thoughts, no thoughts at all. Can summarise it as long as it’s not more than one sentence, you know? Yeah, that was great. Oh yeah, really interesting. I mean, a seminal work, absolutely seminal, you know?

Yeah, I thought it was

really important. Yeah, yeah.

Cariad (44:15)

Really glad I read it and I feel like if

you haven’t, you should, you know, you should really. But that’s to you. Yeah, it’s…

Katherine May (44:20)

You should, yeah. Yeah, the people that just read the Communist Manifesto are cheating. You’ve got to go for

Das Kapital.

Cariad (44:25)

It’s not really,

but look, whatever you got time for, it’s fine. ⁓ Yeah, so I do a lot of reading and I’m often having to read in unsatisfactory circumstances. For example, on the sofa whilst they watch another episode of boy dog mouse cat cheese, boy girl dog mouse cat cheese.

Katherine May (44:30)

Yeah, sorry.

Yes, okay cheese

you can only remember the title by singing the theme tune. Yep.

Cariad (44:50)

Yep, and trying to

read like some sort of gentle, beautiful piece of writing while… is going on is… but then if I don’t do that like, you know, and I think there’s like, there’s something to be said for not being precious about creativity, you know, like just doing it when you can. But if I’m designing a retreat, yes, I would like some really nice bookshelves with some really good books and a really… I don’t want to read on the bed because I have to read on the bed here because it’s like the only comfy place and they’re watching telly. I want a really good armchair.

Katherine May (44:56)

You

Yes, 100%.

Cariad (45:20)

like a properly massive armchair that you can like curl up in. A great throw.

Katherine May (45:25)

Do you have

a specific reading armchair in your house? Because in my little writers chat group over the last year, it’s sort of spread like a virus that every one of us in turn has bought a reading chair. The first person bought one and we’re all like, ⁓ that’s a special chair, you know. And then the next person bought one and everyone was like, ⁓ is this, I mean, should I? And I was the last to fall and I bought the one over at my shelter very recently.

Cariad (45:29)

Now

Yeah, I don’t have one and it does make me, I wish I could, we live in a flat and we just don’t have the space basically. it’s difficult when you’re living in that, I guess very urban living of like this is, I work in a corner of the room.

Katherine May (46:00)

Not enough chair space, yeah.

Cariad (46:12)

My husband works in another corner of the room and then there’s the sofa

Katherine May (46:15)

You

Cariad (46:15)

they watch telly and around the edges are toys and crap. So yeah, I would love to have,

it’s my retreat, right? So

have a bedroom in the tree house and then I’ll have, my God, an office. ⁓ my God, my God. A room of my own with a big chair in, that would be amazing. Yeah, that would be amazing.

Katherine May (46:24)

Yeah, you can have it. Yes?

really nice chair

foot stool as well.

Cariad (46:40)

I want one of those armchairs that’s so big you don’t need one. You know when it’s like you could curl up your whole body. I do love a footstool but I think if I’m gonna design it, it’s one of those ones that like in an advert in the 80s you would have disappeared into the chair. That would have been it. And I have sat in them.

Katherine May (46:55)

Yes. I

want to be unselfconscious enough to want one of those chairs that like reclines and the foot bit pops up but I can’t. I can’t allow myself it. It’s too ugly. But I want to allow myself to want one.

Cariad (47:04)

⁓ yes.

They are ugly. Do

you know what? think I had, when I was at university, I lived with a very brilliant human called Charlie who turned up and the first thing he bought in was one of those chairs for the living room and like a widescreen telly and speakers because he was like obsessed with watching stuff. And I’ll be honest, it’s not the comfiest. yeah, we are actually, it’s not good for reading.

Katherine May (47:22)

and everyone wanted to sit in it.

no!

My

dream is broken. Okay.

Cariad (47:35)

It’s not good for reading

at all. It’s fine for like lying back and watching like a trashy movie, it’s perfect. But for reading, it’s not right. You need to be sat up a bit more because you’re just like flung, flung back. Yeah. So I will just let you let you know that you’re not missing out, I would say. I think a good armchair is better for reading. But yeah. As long as you’ve got a footstool.

Katherine May (47:47)

Right, it’s too horizontal. Okay. Okay.

As long as I’ve got a footstool. Honestly, I

my feet to be elevated. What can I say?

Cariad (48:01)

I know, I do as well.

I’m always putting them on the table and getting like sore from like hardwood table. Yeah, and being like, I wish I had a footstool. Maybe I can invest in a footstool, that’s what I’ll do.

Katherine May (48:07)

Yeah, you get the little ridges, ridges onto your ankles.

You could probably be allowed a footstool. Yeah. Yeah. I think we’ll allow you. You work hard, you know?

Cariad (48:16)

I mean, I’ll see what my children do to it. I know, I know.

They will make, thing is, my kids are so young that if I buy a footstool, it will become their castle, their jumping off point. Yeah, so I’m not at the point. Yeah, I need to wait. Yes, exactly.

Katherine May (48:28)

Yes, they take all the good things children. They identify the best bits and take them. Yeah.

So you’re reading on your retreat. Presumably, I just wonder if your reading is going to be different. If it’s, you know, if you’re going to step out of the reading obligations that you have right now. And, you know, are you going to go back to Jane Austen, for example, because I know you’re a huge Jane. Like, what do you immerse in?

Cariad (48:38)

Mm.

You

Yeah, I think I’d definitely like to have my faves there. I’d have Persuasion there for sure. ⁓ And PnP because why not? ⁓

Katherine May (49:03)

You

How many times have you read Persuasion now? Roughly.

Cariad (49:07)

I’ve actually only

read it, I haven’t read as many as you’d expect or I wish I had, probably three I think I’ve read it. Yeah, yeah, I think, I’m such, again, I think this is a bit neurodivergent that I find it very hard to reread because it’s like, I’ve done it, I’ve done it. And actually it’s the podcast, both me and Sara have had to do rereads because we could not remember a book and then we had to talk about it. And both of us have, we said recently, I think on our…

Katherine May (49:14)

Okay, that’s quite civilized.

Yeah.

Of course, yeah, in that kind of detail.

Cariad (49:35)

one of our Patreon episodes we were talking about rereads and saying, God, this is something we never would have done by choice ever. Because it’s like to us, it’s gross. It’s like, oh God, going back, going back. And actually, it’s been really interesting to go back to books that you’re like, huh, that is not as good as I remember it. Or that is even better than I remember, which is a lovely feeling to approach a book at a different time of life, I think, rather than it’s not really the book, it’s you have changed or you are in different position.

Katherine May (49:43)

You

Yeah.

Yeah, you grow into

books and you grow out of them as well, I think. Yeah.

Cariad (50:05)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And was one

that I was obsessed with at university that we did recently that both of us were like, huh, it’s all right. Like, ⁓ okay. So yeah, I definitely would like some rereads. then I think I’m very, again, I’m

Katherine May (50:15)

It’s funny, isn’t it?

Cariad (50:21)

lucky that I get to read these books for a job. But I think what you don’t get when you are reading for a job is you don’t get the whims.

Katherine May (50:22)

You

Cariad (50:31)

So you recently on your newsletter sent out some Halloween recommendations and every one of those books I was like, ooh, ooh.

Katherine May (50:31)

Yeah, that’s right.

yes.

I spent

so much money putting that list together because as I was looking for them I found all these other books I was like oh I think I’m gonna need that one it cost me about 200 quid honestly

Cariad (50:41)

god.

⁓ my god.

Well it nearly cost me because I was

I need to buy these books. And then because I’m on a job at the moment I was like, you cannot, you cannot add to the pile. So that’s the one problem when you make reading a job is you can’t just see, you can’t go into a bookshop. Like bookshops for me at the moment are really horrible because I just can’t look. I can’t go, that looks interesting. I’m like, nope. I don’t need any books. I have a pile of 40 next to my bed. Like, nope.

Katherine May (50:56)

No more books for you. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Can’t do it, can’t do it.

Cariad (51:16)

Don’t look! It’s so…

Katherine May (51:18)

I have this, I repeatedly sort of say to my family, okay, the To Be Read pile has taken on an air of menace now, help me, like what do I do?

Cariad (51:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

and I do that as well I go through I recently because of what’s happening because of the reading I went through the TBR pile because I did think one day it was gonna fall and kill me I was like that will be what happens and Yeah, it’s very real and I thought right let’s be honest So I got rid of quite a few that I was like you’re not gonna read that like that’s okay You haven’t failed

Katherine May (51:35)

Yeah. It’s a very real possibility, honestly, for one of us.

Cariad (51:50)

And then I made two piles some just went back on the shelf and I was like, it’s just not the time for you I’m afraid but but I will hopefully get to you one day and some I Charity shop to gave away cuz I was like, I’m not gonna read you You are seem nice, but I it’s like a meet your friend at parties. It’s like look we met we had nice time at the party But I’m not gonna take a number It’s not that situation you live in you live in Dundee Yeah

Katherine May (52:09)

Yeah.

just not that into you.

Cariad (52:18)

and we’re just not gonna see each other and

you’re not on Instagram so I won’t even be able to message you. I think let’s leave it here, let’s leave it here. So yeah, I think you have to be, I’ve also got piles on my desk which are separate, they’re not even the TBRs so I’m like, look at another pile here, I’m like, there’s so much on there that needs to go. It’s terrifying.

Katherine May (52:36)

terrifying. I

don’t think it’s really it’s really hard to talk about this because I mean we both love books and also we both get sent a lot of books and I want to read all of those books and I want

Cariad (52:44)

Yes.

I know.

Katherine May (52:47)

offer as many people as I can quotes or you know help or whatever but you reach in this industry you reach a limit and if you’re not really kind of boundaried about it you can end up hating books because

Cariad (52:50)

It’s so hard, isn’t it?

Katherine May (53:01)

They just like a book, a great book that you didn’t want to read in the first place is like a kind of thorn in your side because you feel like you should love it, but you just don’t care about it. It’s not, it might just be a kind of temporary thing as well. Like this is not the book I need at this point in my life. And then it just glares at you from your shelf in the most accusing way. And you just like, why can’t I just pick up this book and read it? But you just can’t.

Cariad (53:07)

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

It’s weird, I get very angry because, yeah, no, it’s not the authors. I got sent one. So yeah, same as you, I get sent books and I got sent one the other day that I hadn’t asked for. Because obviously I’m at the moment saying no to all, as you know, most quotes and proofs, because I just can’t, ⁓ it’s, you know, like something very specific. So like my friend, Rachel Parris, just wrote a Jane Austen spin-off called Introducing Mrs. Collins. So I…

Katherine May (53:31)

Interview books. It’s not the authors, it’s the books.

Yeah.

Hmm

Cariad (53:57)

Obviously it was easy to take that on the pile and easy to read that and I’m doing a book event with her tonight actually so That was one that was like yeah, that’s a simple one, but I got sent one recently saying thank you for your order Thank you for ordering this book. We would love if you enjoy it and I was like I have never heard of this book I have never heard of this person I did not order it and I felt so angry because it

Katherine May (54:16)

you’re like I know my spending’s out of control but I did not order that

Cariad (54:22)

It me and Sarah say sometimes they feel like time thieves. Like you don’t have enough time anyway. And so you can look at a book and that book becomes, know, that book is looking at you going, I’m three hours. I’m three hours. You’ll never get back. You’re like, but I need that three hours. So yeah, it’s a funny relationship when I guess this is a very common thing with creative people of like your hobby has become professional. And so something that I did as a kid and a teenager and a student.

Katherine May (54:27)

Yeah,

Yeah, I’m three out of your life, yeah.

Mm, mm.

Cariad (54:51)

you know, because I liked it without thinking that this meant anything. It’s just like, oh, I just like reading. Now is like the day job. So then the day job is it’s so weird because when you first get sent free books, you can’t believe it. You’re like, this is the oh my God, this is amazing. Oh my God. Yeah, you’re like, I don’t even have to buy that one. I was going to buy it. Now they just send it to me because they just said, do you want it? And you feel amazing. But then, yeah, it’s sort of, you know, that classic kind of

Katherine May (55:05)

I know, I’ve discovered the money tree.

Hehehehehe

Cariad (55:17)

And it’s a Aesop’s fable about it, isn’t it? It’s like, and then hundreds of books came in and the woman could not breathe.

Katherine May (55:22)

It’s

like, be careful what you wish for writ large. And I think probably as well for both of us, we’re both thinking I’m gonna have to say something intelligent and interesting about it as well. Whereas once upon a time I would have just read a book and gone, that was nice. That was the only thought I had to have about it. I loved that, that was really nice.

Cariad (55:25)

Be careful what you wish for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

And I think that’s

also interesting that we’re living in this time where everyone is expected to have such opinions on everything. Like you’re supposed to have an opinion on every single thing that’s happening. When often I think, don’t really understand. I don’t fully grasp what the words you’re saying. And yeah, I miss those times where you could just read a book and go, yes, yes, I quite liked it. That would be it. But now it’s like, well, it used to be enough. Yeah. Yeah.

Katherine May (55:48)

Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

That’s it. And that used to be enough. Like that entertained me for a few hours while I was sitting on the beach.

I mean, I’ve never read on the beach, but there’s sand and… But do you? I don’t think I’ve ever managed to read anything on a beach.

Cariad (56:11)

I like a beach read. I do like a beach read. Yeah, yeah, I’m all right.

I’ve done lots of beach reading, but very, I’d need to be on a raised sun lounger. I’m with you with the sand. I have real problems with sand as well. But raised sun lounger and being able to walk in the sea, yeah, you get some good beach reading. But yeah, trying to say something intelligent about.

Katherine May (56:26)

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Proper. Yeah. Don’t like sand. Don’t like it.

Yeah, that’s nice.

Cariad (56:40)

Sometimes you just, yeah, book that just filled the time, you know, is, yeah, I sometimes wish you could, there was less, there was less conversation about things. Just a little bit less, 10 % less. Yeah. Well, also it’s difficult, it? Because it’s the democratization, I said that badly,

Katherine May (56:50)

Yeah, let’s just stop talking about books. Let’s just read them. I know.

Cariad (57:01)

You know, things like social media. there’s amazing book accounts that I follow on Instagram that are like recommend brilliant things. And you think, God, if this was 20 years ago, I wouldn’t have known this person that they wouldn’t have got through to old stream media and their take wouldn’t have been here. And old stream media obviously was very white and very male. And this is, you know, it’s opening up so many doors, but you know, it’s opening up so many doors, like everybody. And then you…

Katherine May (57:25)

Too many doors! Shut the doors!

Cariad (57:28)

I think that’s in someone was talking the other day about curation and that is sort of what’s becoming ⁓ like a skill, a tangible skill that like if you follow someone on Instagram, it’s a very, it’s a deliberate choice these days, isn’t it? Like this person’s curation of their thoughts or the books that they like is worth it. Whereas there’s so many people shouting in the ether. You have to get really kind of savvy. Like you’re in a market, aren’t you? Being like, I don’t trust that trader. Those apples were all powdery. I’m not coming back to you.

Katherine May (57:37)

Yeah, that’s right.

Yeah, all the time, yeah.

Cariad (57:58)

Like, mm-mm. Yes, yeah, yeah. Whereas I’ve got a couple of people that have recommended things that you’re like, ⁓ we’ve got similar tastes. It’s not even good tastes, it’s similar tastes. And you’re like, yeah, if they like that, then I’m sure. Yes, exactly.

Katherine May (57:59)

We’re still in a fairy tale world for you. There was poison in those apples!

Yeah. Yeah.

If she likes it, I know I’m gonna, yeah, that’s right.

I think that’s probably why book reviews in newspapers don’t work anymore, famously for the publishing industry, because they’re for too general an audience now and we’re looking for our personal curators.

Cariad (58:20)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

Katherine May (58:30)

so I was gonna ask you what cultural artefact you’d bring with you, what item of culture you’d kind of consume. Will it be a book or will you take a break?

Cariad (58:42)

Now I think I would have some books there I would have bring I wouldn’t I would try not to surround you know I don’t know I don’t want I don’t feel hemmed in by books I want like if I’m retreating I should be retreating from the books for a bit so I’d like to feel very naturey but the thing I would like is a record player I know what a what a little manic pixie dream girl of a cliche I am what can I say I’m just as cute and then

Katherine May (59:01)

Ooh, nice.

I’m so analog. ⁓ how heavenly.

Cariad (59:08)

What I would really love is Jo- Yeah, I’d love Joni Mitchell’s Blue on vinyl.

Because

I feel like that album is a retreat in itself. Like, it’s such an incredible album, but it is an intense album and it can be hard to listen to. Like you can’t sort of just go about your day. Sometimes you’re like, bloody hell, Joni, I’m just trying to do the washing up. And so I think in a tree house with the stars above my head and you know, little mice preparing me apple crumble and listening to Joni Mitchell’s Blue, I think would be…

Katherine May (59:21)

Just lovely.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, it requires your commitment.

Cariad (59:46)

a very cathartic, like I think that would be helpful and would be what the purpose of a retreat is, you know, to like heal yourself a little bit and soothe yourself a little bit. And so yeah, that’s why I would, I think just being able to listen to that over and over again.

Katherine May (59:54)

Yeah.

that’s lovely.

So when did you first meet that album? Because it feels like that’s the kind of thing you remember about the album.

Cariad (1:00:10)

Yeah,

that’s a good question. So my dad was a DJ, like an actual DJ back in the day, back in the 70s. And ⁓ he at one point went to Copenhagen to be a DJ with my mum. He wasn’t supposed to bring my mum. He was supposed to be like the hot, they hired like the hot hot single man to be a cool DJ. And I think they just got married. And so she like hid basically like hid in the apartment, wasn’t supposed to be there. And ⁓

Katherine May (1:00:25)

wow.

it ⁓

Cariad (1:00:39)

What the reason I’m telling it sorry they have they had a lot of vinyl unfortunately they had to sell a huge amount of my dad’s collection to get back from Denmark because they ran out of money So my dad used to have like he used to talk about this of like he had like all original Beatles Rolling Stones. my god, know, like Jimi Hendrix stuff like he was obsessed with music obsessed with gigs He went to see the Beatles when he was a kid. Like he went to one of the early concerts

⁓ because he loved the music and my grandfather took him and they both like literally couldn’t, know, one of the ones where you couldn’t hear anything because the girls were screaming so much. And so when I, my brother was also DJ as a teenager. So there was like lots of vinyl around and then I, so my family, I was given a record player, maybe at like 14. It was like, she needs one. Maybe I wanted one. Yeah. And.

Katherine May (1:01:12)

.

Yeah, yeah, well you did, you did, you absolutely needed one

Cariad (1:01:30)

So we had like the dregs of my dad’s collection that we would listen to. But what he had done is he tried to sell my mom’s vinyl and she only had like five albums and she went and grabbed them so that he couldn’t sell them. And so they still have the stickers on saying like one Kroner, two Kroner. Now some of this was like, no offense to my mom, like Bread

Katherine May (1:01:42)

Hahaha!

Cariad (1:01:56)

They’re not a great band. I Want to Make it With You is a great, great song. But like the Bread album, I was happy to get it, but I was like, okay. But the one thing she saved from the waves was her Joni Mitchell collection. And so when I must have been about 14, she came in and said, would you like this album? Like I really love it. And it’s one of, you know, meant, meant up to me. Yes. Yeah.

Katherine May (1:01:57)

You

my god, every girl should be given Joni Mitchell’s Blue aged 14. That

should happen ceremonially on your 14th birthday.

Cariad (1:02:24)

I know.

And the thing is with music is now my kids have such access to music that they’ve actually listened to a lot of stuff. But when I was a kid, like, you know, I just I’d never heard what my parents really listened to apart from what we had on tapes in the car. So I remember getting it and playing it. And I vividly remember being like, ⁓ OK. This is this is something else. And I just listen to it again and again. then.

Katherine May (1:02:30)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Cariad (1:02:51)

And then I had, I think we had ⁓ Caught and Spark on vinyl and For the Roses on vinyl and maybe the Woodstock one, maybe I bought that from a charity. Then I started going to charity shops and buying vinyl and trying to find old Joni Mitchell stuff. Cause back then it was just, yeah, it was quite hard to just, you couldn’t listen to it, you know.

Katherine May (1:03:08)

There

was a long period when the female singer-songwriter was really denigrated in our culture and it was seen as really kind of lame to like it. I think we’ve really got through that now, but it’s hard to remember that there was a time when that actually was sort of slightly forbidden.

Cariad (1:03:15)

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I’m, you know, I’m Jagged Little Pill Generation. So like, I’m, I went from Joni Mitchell to Alanis Morissette to Lisa Loeb. Like, I have always loved women singing about their problems. And now I feel so grateful that we’re living in the age of like Chappell Roan and Lily Allen. I’m like, we are blessed right now. And Beyonce, of course, our queen, with women.

Katherine May (1:03:32)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cariad (1:03:50)

singing

about stuff that like matters. But yeah, I do remember when it was slightly embarrassing that I was listening to Joni Mitchell. was like, again, it was a cliche. It was a cliche at university, definitely. They’re like, oh, oh God, what’s this woman banging on about? And I had a friend who used to say, she cried at Woodstock. It’s like, she’s lame. She cried at Woodstock. And I was, I would have cried Hugely overwhelming. What a sensory nightmare it must have been for the neurodivergent divergent people.

Katherine May (1:03:54)

Mm.

Yeah, it was a bit lame. Yeah.

I would have cried at Woodstock, mainly because of the lack of sanitation, like… Awful.

Awful. Just dreadful, sorry. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Cariad (1:04:17)

That’s why they were all on drugs, Katherine. They were all on drugs to deal with their sensory overwhelm.

So yeah, I think we’re living in really good times right now. And if you look at music right now, I grew up as well with like bands, there were bands and they were mostly men and they were even boy bands or they were just guitar bands that were men. And now there’s this death of bands and I saw really, yeah, but there’s not a death of women singing.

Katherine May (1:04:35)

Mm.

Yeah.

Apparently so, yeah.

Cariad (1:04:46)

And that is the most, you know, if you look at them, who’s selling the most obviously, you know, it’s people like Taylor Swift and Beyonce and Chappell Roan It’s women singing by themselves, Sabrina Carpenter. There’s so many these days that Billie Eilish like, when I was growing up, there’d be like one, there’d be, you know, Alanis Morissette or Lisa Loeb were like, ⁓ Tori Amos, sorry, never forget. So yeah, I think it’s funny that women singing still has capitalist power compared to like a

Katherine May (1:04:51)

Taylor Swift.

Mmm.

Yeah. Tori, yep.

Mmm.

Cariad (1:05:15)

of men.

singing about stuff doesn’t seem to have the same power. But I saw a funny meme the other day being like, all those guitar bands now just have podcasts. she was like, she was like, get back in the garage, stop podcasting, pick up a guitar and like sing some songs. Because that was, it was better when you were doing that.

Katherine May (1:05:33)

It’s really sad. I, yeah. But I love, I love, love, love you bringing Joni Mitchell with you. I just think, I mean, she is like a kind of Elvin spirit as part of your whole mossy tree house universe. mean, this is, it’s a consistent universe. I love this. I can tell you’re a writer. That’s the, you’re creating these complete fantasy universes. Yeah.

Cariad (1:05:39)

Feels right.

She’s Galadriel isn’t she? She’s Galadriel Okay, good. So that’s good. didn’t. Yeah, I want it to be consistent.

Katherine May (1:06:03)

absolutely consistent, must be fully constructed, fully realised. How do you know when it’s about time to come home from your retreat? Like what are the signals for you that say I’ve had enough time on my own now I’m ready to enter the world again?

Cariad (1:06:06)

Yes.

Sadly, in real life, it’s because there’s a train booked and my husband is like, when are you coming back? What, you said Saturday? Yeah,

Katherine May (1:06:22)

The kids are crawling up the walls. Yeah.

Cariad (1:06:27)

especially my children. So in real life, there’s like a maximum amount of nights before I’m called back to being, and also,

house is such chaos that I genuinely feel guilt. don’t feel like he’s not being unreasonable. There’s only so much you can take before you’re like, I can’t do this alone. Like I need back up here.

⁓ So yes, shout out to people who do do it by themselves because my god, my two are so full of beans that I would be in a ball. ⁓ So I think when it’s time, I think…

When would I know it was time? That’s really difficult, because once I get into a vibe, I’m quite hard to shift transitions. So I can imagine myself getting quite comfortable and being like, well, this is what I do now. I live here. I’m one of those people, if you plonk me anywhere, I just think, well, this is my life. And I can’t really remember what it was before. And I have to really, like, remind myself that this isn’t your life. Like, I think it comes from being, from having a…

Katherine May (1:07:07)

Yeah.

Yeah, this is my life now.

Cariad (1:07:30)

overactive imagination. And I’ve talked about this thought as an improviser. You know, if you’re in an improv show and you get very lost in an improv show, it feels very weird to come back to reality where that person isn’t your sister and that person isn’t playing your, you know, beloved.

Katherine May (1:07:43)

Right.

Cariad (1:07:46)

I did a 50 hour improv show in, I’ve done quite a few 50 hour improv shows. And I

did a 53 hour in Canada where

yeah.

Katherine May (1:07:56)

What you… Wait, wait, wait. You weren’t

awake for the whole time. No! How? I’ve never been awake for that long.

Cariad (1:07:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Katherine, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It

was before kids I will say, it was before kids So yeah, it’s a called the Improvathon that was bought here from Canada by Ken Campbell, the amazing, mad theatre performer, Ken Campbell. And we don’t sleep, and the point was, Ken used to say, like, if you don’t sleep, you hit lizard brain. So you hit like this primeval state where you’re gonna be pure improvising, because you’re just not gonna be thinking anything.

Katherine May (1:08:26)

You ⁓

Cariad (1:08:27)

Now I will caveat

You just get really tired and you lose your mind, but it was a real fun experience and they still do it every year, the 50 hour show. mean, you don’t have to do, some people do like 10 hours or five hours or two hours or something, but there are a core group who do the whole 50 and I used to be in that group, but I’m not anymore because it started affecting me. yeah, I went to Canada and I did the 53 hours there.

Katherine May (1:08:30)

I’m just really, really tired.

Yeah.

Cariad (1:08:56)

and as Canadian improviser who had chosen to play David Bowie from the Labyrinth years. I thought he was really David Bowie. And we got together on stage, we were a couple, our characters had got together. And I have told this story before, so apologies if you’ve listened to me before tell the story. And I genuinely thought,

Katherine May (1:09:04)

Nice.

Cariad (1:09:26)

I had married David Bowie, but also prince the prince like yeah He was also, you know, the goblin prince in my head. And ⁓ I was sitting at the side of the stage thinking I’ve broken up a marriage because he’s married. You know, at the time he was married to a Iman and I was thinking she’s so gorgeous and she’s so amazing. And I this is going to be all over the papers. This is global news. Like I absolutely lost my mind. So so I am quite bad.

Katherine May (1:09:27)

you

Yeah. Wow.

Cariad (1:09:55)

like leaving situations and not that becoming reality. So I feel like I might need a fairy to go and check on my real life and give me a little like, like the mice to be like, it’s time to go. It’s time to go. Yeah, the winter’s coming. It’s time to go. So yeah, I think that’s what I would need. Cause I would just, I’d be lost. Yes, please. Thank you.

Katherine May (1:10:00)

Yeah.

Might be time to go home now. Must go now. All good things must come to an end. Yeah.

be ready to go. Okay so a fairy I will arrange for a fairy to come and just

you know just gently tap you on the shoulder and say I think it’s time now love it’s okay. No no but she’ll be really nice about it and you’ll feel very soothed and comforted it’ll be okay she’ll come with like cake as she does it just to or maybe like chocolate milk or something just kind of ease you out yeah it could be okay.

Cariad (1:10:24)

the

And then I’m like, no, no. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. ⁓ okay. Great, great, great. Yeah, that’s fine. ⁓ a hot chocolate and a cake. Yeah, great. I would actually,

all news should be delivered to me with hot chocolate and cake and then I’d be pretty much fine with whatever you tell me. Yeah. Definitely.

Katherine May (1:10:49)

I think that’s good for all of us, like just bring me it with chocolate.

And the final thing that I just want to ask is what do you bring back home with you? It could be like a thought or an insight or an item, like is there something you return with that enriches your life from now on or brings that retreat back home?

Cariad (1:10:58)

Ooh.

I think we’re coming back to our trinkets, because when I go to Wales on the Mothers Who Write retreats, we often, there’s like a river that’s running by this cottage and we often, I go and get in it if it’s not too freezing. And I will try and take, you know, a pine cone or a stone or something, because I want, and I keep it in sight because I want to remember, like there was a time when you were not in domesticity, you were in the water and you were, or you were, you know.

Katherine May (1:11:14)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Cariad (1:11:36)

you were just being you. You weren’t being someone’s mom or someone’s wife. You were fully writing all day and being creative. I think seeing those, I know you talk about this a lot, like they anchor you, don’t you? There’s something in seeing that stone that like pulls you down and is like, oh yeah, that’s who I am. I’m that as well. And it’s not that I don’t want to be mother, wife, daughter, but it’s nice to remember, isn’t it? Like there’s a part of you that’s completely an individual.

Katherine May (1:11:52)

Yeah. Yeah.

little connection.

Cariad (1:12:06)

and isn’t connected to anybody

Katherine May (1:12:07)

Yeah.

Cariad (1:12:08)

and is what you would do without any responsibilities. And it’s like, yeah.

Katherine May (1:12:13)

Yeah, there’s a kind of purity to that self that exists on a retreat, I think, in

a way that, like, at the rest of life, it feels like you’re always constructing yourself around people’s need in lots of different directions. And there’s something about being alone and just existing that feels really, really kind of true for a little while.

Cariad (1:12:25)

Mmm.

Yeah, it’s nice to return to that, isn’t it? And I think you don’t want to, I would want to leave the retreat, you know, I sound, but you, yeah, I promise guys I’m coming. But you almost, as well, I feel you never want too much of anything in my life. I’m someone who really needs things to change and be interesting and shiny. And so, yeah, I think it’s good to remember like, oh, there’s that side and that side and that side. And I can choose to be podcaster, writer, actor, improviser, comedian.

Katherine May (1:12:43)

I promise!

Yeah.

Cariad (1:13:05)

mother like I need all those roles otherwise I get very I feel mad I feel so bored that I like you know I’m not right so yeah I think I would just bring back a little a little trinket perhaps a tiny little knitted thing from Mrs Mouse from my Brambly Hedge friends that I could keep ⁓ and then maybe like yeah a pine cone or something

Katherine May (1:13:12)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hehehehehe

Cariad, thank you. I just loved being in your imaginative universe. That was just heavenly. And I wish you many retreats with the mice in the future.

Cariad (1:13:36)

Thank you.

Yes, we’re gonna, we need to get ready for autumn. Everyone’s pickling and doing their jams. I’ve forgotten all their names now, I feel bad, but whoever they are. So we, and we’ve got quite the feast to prepare for, obviously. It’s harvest time. So, but you’re welcome to visit us, Katherine. They’d like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much.

Katherine May (1:13:43)

You

We will, I will, yeah, I’ll be there, no problem. 100%. ⁓

thank you,

Katherine May (1:14:05)

Well, welcome back. I hope you are full of visions of delightful scurrying mice bringing you baked goods. And may your whole day be filled with them.

I honestly had to, after that interview, go into my loft and turn back to my Brambly Hedge books, which were so beloved in my childhood and just full of delight now. You can actually follow Brambly Hedge on Instagram for a regular dose of tiny, perfect, mousy interiors, which are exactly the kind of interior that I wish for.

But it is. If you’ve never come across the books, I cannot tell you what a treat they are, honestly. 100%. And I just hereby want to offer permission for any adult to buy any children’s book because that in itself is a retreat in my view. Anyway, do follow Cariad.

on Instagram, Substack, and I think you’re going to love the Weirdos Book Club podcast.

two little sparrows having a fight in the bushes there.

This is a truly delightful little break today. I’m going to leave you now, but I hope you get a little break in your day too.

Hope one day you get to retreat to your clearing, whatever it is. Take care, see you soon.