Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello, I’m Katherine May. Welcome to The Clearing. I am doing the thing I like to do at this time of year, which is to get outside in the dark.

It’s really not a very appealing prospect before you do it, but actually, you know, once you get out there, it’s not so bad. It’s a drizzly afternoon, no stars, but still crisp and cold and kind of lovely. There’s a bit of rain coming in, so I won’t stay out for long. [00:01:00] But I do think it’s important to make friends with the night at this time of year, because otherwise it sometimes feels like you might never leave the house again.

I have just had a great conversation with Andy J Pizza, the writer and illustrator of many, many books, including the absolutely wonderful, invisible Things. That’s my favourite, which he wrote with his wife, Sophie Miller. He is an absolute powerhouse. I’m a big fan of his podcast, Creative Pep Talk, and also just generally his way of being in the world, and in particular, his brilliant way of talking about neurodiversity, which I feel like he always gives me a fresh perspective, even though I know quite a lot about it already.

He has  [00:02:00] ADHD and he articulates it so well, and he does it all over again in this interview today because he’s planned his retreat around his ADHD and thought about exactly what he would need in order to take a rest. And it is, of course not the kind of rest where you sit back and relax. That’s what we’re told over and over again.

That rest is, and rest for most of us, looks nothing like that. And I think we often carry some level of guilt about that, about our rest not being the right kind of rest. But he doesn’t hold that shame, thank goodness. Or if he does, he is able to overcome it because. He offers us this wonderful, wonderful exploration of, I don’t wanna give it away, of a setting that you may already know really well I did.

Um, [00:03:00] but which in his brilliant vision becomes the perfect retreat for a person whose brain needs constant stimulation and constant fuel for its fire. I had the best time in this conversation. I think we’ve got some similar interests, uh, and I just was thrilled when some of my very favorite cultural artifacts came up.

I think you’re gonna really enjoy this. And if you are someone who doesn’t understand A DHD very well, I think this will be really insightful. Well, I hope it will anyway. I think many a ADHDers will be deeply comforted by this, particularly anyone who kind of thinks, oh, I don’t think I could do this because I’m not someone who could go on retreat.

I wouldn’t be able to switch off. I think Andy just gives us amazing [00:04:00] permission here to not switch off in any way and to really lean into the wonder of our brains. I’ll be back a bit later. See you then. Andy. Welcome to The Clearing. It’s lovely to have you here. I’m very excited to be here. I, um, I feel like we only ever talk through the medium of podcast.

This is how our friendship plays out. I feel like most of my friends are like that now. Yeah, unfortunately. When if we need to advance the conversation, it’s like, oh, should, should we just record something? Yeah, that’s true. And then the times you’re like, maybe we’ll just, what if we just talk and then you don’t record and you’re like, ah, that would’ve been the best episode we ever did.

Dang it. It’s the curse of recording podcasts. You’re like, wait, what if I say something interesting accidentally? We gotta make use of this. Anyway, I’m so glad you are here. And I, and one of the things I was about to say before we press record that I held back from saying is, I have a hard time imagining you resting because you are so energetic all the time.

You never [00:05:00] seem to be off. Yeah. Do you take breaks? Yes, I do, but it is very difficult for me. So I’m sure, I feel like there’s a, gonna be a thread through this about A DHD, so I might as well just burst that bubble. Let’s do right from the start. I think being an A DHD person pro, I imagine a lot of a DHD people relate to this.

Just rest is very difficult. Where so much of the brain chemical stuff that I need requires chasing, requires stimulation. I need a lot of stuff going on. So there’s kind of a theme here in my own, like the, the, I’ve been looking through these questions you sent, and I think there, I think I have learned something about what I need when I step away.

Okay. Okay. Even if it’s not typical. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And is it, I mean, a lot of ADHD is, and I think a lot of autistic people as well, actually. Yeah. Talk about kind of [00:06:00] resting in motion in many ways. Like we are happiest in our passions, and if we are resting, it’s about going deep into our passions rather than sitting on the proverbial sun lounger with a.

Airport novel. Very true. And, and I think as my, my, all my passions have become monetized accidentally. Some, some accidentally, some on purpose, but then there’s all these kind of, uh, you know, hangups to do with that, that a lot of the things I will do when I’m resting aren’t directly related to work. A lot of them end up feeding into the work that I do.

Yeah. So it’s still the, the hyper fixations and whatnot. That’s, that’s usually where I go. Um, but if I do too much, like we, we went on a vacation this summer and it was amazing. It was a big one. We went to Italy and Oh wow. Where did you go? We went to, so my brother-in-law planned it. He’d been there, [00:07:00] um, previously.

And so he really, and he’s a meticulous planner, so he, he just knocked it out of the park. Thank God for those people, people, we can just hand it over to them. Gosh. Oh, I would’ve never had a prayer to be disorganized. See all these different things. But we went to, um, Rome, Florence, Venice, uh, and Bologna. Oh, wow.

And it was, it was incredible. But I learned, I always learned the same lessons like, oh. I can do the low stimulation things like for a little bit, like walking around ruins, that kind of thing. Can do that for like two or three days and it’s really good for me. 

Andy J Pizza: Mm-hmm. But 

Katherine May: then after that I’m like, okay, I’m gonna have to take some accommodations.

I need to do a lot of different kinds of things Yeah. To feel okay. Um, so yeah, I do, I can rest, but it, I think it looks pretty different for, for me. Mm. And do you, are you the kind of person who’s happy taken out of their everyday context as well? Because I think that’s another factor for a lot of us is that, [00:08:00] that our homes, our everyday lives are actually what makes us comfortable.

So travel can sometimes seem like, not like the opposite of relaxing actually. Yeah. Yeah. I think. For me, it’s the, it’s the actual getting there. Mm-hmm. And the being locked up in an airport in an airplane and all of that stuff feels so low stimulation that it’s panic inducing. Right. I have a real, you know, I heard this thing about A DHD and I thought it’s one of the most validated that I’ve ever felt because I use the same language without any research backed, whatever.

Like, just having the courage to say, I remember telling my dad, like, I, I can’t explain it to you, but like, severe boredom feels like I’m in pain. That’s right. And it’s, and it’s, it is a. There’s definitely a privilege to that ’cause some, lots of people are in real pain at different times. I’ve had real pain in my life as well, [00:09:00] but it is very validating to hear that the research confirmed that the pain centers actually do fire when A DHD people are bored.

That’s so interesting. It’s so weird. So interesting. Yeah. It’s so annoying too, because it feels like there’s so many things about A DHD that, like if you read the symptoms list 

Andy J Pizza: mm-hmm. 

Katherine May: This is like synonymous with what most people consider to be just bad people. Yeah. Just like, you know, in, in so many different ways.

Yeah. And so like this idea of like not being able to be bored. It can, it just has. There’s so many implications and, and ways that can be understood, and I, and I, I regularly beat myself up about it, you know? Mm-hmm. I wish that I had a higher tolerance for that kind of thing, um, for, for a whole number of reasons.

But, um, but yeah, I, I have to, so yeah. The travel’s a [00:10:00] real difficult thing, but I personally really feed off the novelty. Yeah. Um, and, and so that’s really, really good for me. So I do like once I’m there, but it’s hard for me to get myself to do it. Mm. Yeah. Well, I wonder how we’re gonna do today. Gonna be really interesting.

Well, I have tricks on my sleeve, perhaps. We’ll, okay. Well, well, let’s get into it then. Yeah. So welcome, welcome to The Clearing. Um. Tell me where we find ourselves, where you might go, what sort of landscape, what sort of place you might go for, your kind of rest. So I like the idea that this could be partially fictional.

It’s gonna be, oh, it can be as as daft as you like, my friends. Good. Okay. Uh, there’s a little bit, I found a little bit of a loophole here. Okay. Um, so I thought what I would like to do is go to, have you ever seen the movie? How’s Moving Castle? Many times. Okay. I mean, [00:11:00] only about like 12 times or something.

Good. I was afraid. I was like, if I bring this up and you don’t know it, I don’t know how far we can go. I’m a massive Zaki fan. Okay. Yeah, me too. Um, the, so what I, I’m picking going to How’s Moving Castle as a kind of bed and breakfast? Uh oh. Yes. I mean, I think just alone. That alone is very, uh, appealing to me.

There’s something about those movies 

Andy J Pizza: Mm. That 

Katherine May: have a flavor of paradise and heaven to me. Like I can’t hardly describe that. I mean, I, I would say I’ve, I’ve geeked out about a lot of zaki documentaries. He’s the director of House Moving Castle Spirited Away, the Boy in the Heron, um, uh, princess Mon, all of these kind of incredible films.

Andy J Pizza: Yeah. 

Katherine May: He is another person who is incredibly easily bored and wants it seems like it to be working all the time. [00:12:00] He’s one of those people that has fake, retired like three times. Bless him. He’s like, this is my last movie I’m not doing anymore. And then he is back to work. He bless him for trying, honestly.

I know he’s trying, he’s trying so hard. I, I can’t ima Yeah. Retirement to me feels, I try to make room for the fact that, you know, as I’ve gotten older, I’m almost 40 and I. There’s so much about being 40 that I could have never foreseen. Mm. And as you get older, you realize that you’re like, oh, any I, in my twenties, I was constantly looking at artists and musicians and, and writers and, and I’m, I am very fascinated and analytical of their journeys.

Yeah. But I would look at them and be like, I’m never doing that. I don’t wanna do, like there’s, I just like, I don’t know what it was, just like complete, uh, hubris or something. But as I get older, I’m like, oh, I can’t imagine retirement at all. I can’t, I don’t, I just can’t imagine I would do that, but at the same time, I’m like, you know, who knows?

I don’t know who I will be in that time. But I, I [00:13:00] very much relate to this Miyazaki thing of just not being able to let go of just doing stuff. Like I, I love doing stuff. Well look, and you have chosen, therefore something that is not only moving through a landscape. True. We should, we should take some time Yes.

To describe how’s moving Castle. Let’s describe it in your words. How do you see it? See, I love that. And it kind of, it goes right to that thing you said at the start of like resting in motion. So how’s moving? Castle is a, it’s not, it’s kind of a castle. It’s, it’s a hodgepodge of a bunch of different looking buildings that all look a bit medieval.

There’s sorcery magic, uh, and it’s on legs. So it’s literally moving throughout. It’s a bit of the baba yugas to it. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it absolutely does. So it’s moving, there’s action that you’re, if you’re looking out the window, having a coffee, it’s almost like being on a train. Um, that, but. I, that’s one of the reasons why I picked it.

I like that feeling of [00:14:00] even I most rest when, like, if I’m on a swing even, I really like that feeling. Um, I like being in the ocean a lot. I can really chill in the ocean when there’s just, you know, getting smashed with waves. Like there’s something about that I can like finally chill out. Um, I need that.

It puts me at some kind of baseline. So I like that moving thing. But then also there’s two, there’s two other pieces to this. The first one is I think that I was, I was trying to. Put words to why is it when I almost picked spirited aways bathhouse. But I, I think that might be mine one’s. I love it so much and I would definitely go there.

Uh, but it doesn’t feel like a retreat. It feels al. ’cause there’s a little bit of like a horror. There’s a lot drama. There’s a lot of drama. It’s a little bit scary. I would love, that would be my first choice to visit. Yeah. But not for a retreat. Yeah. Um, fair enough. Wise [00:15:00] choice, really. Yeah. But I thought about like, what is it about, uh, all of my heroes, people like Tova Janssen, Jim Henson, Miyazaki, um, that really influenced the, the work and picture books and stuff that I do.

All of them create worlds that feel more like home than reality, which is sad to me. I do feel like that is sad, but. And I don’t know if it’s a neurodivergent thing. I’m just feeling like nothing’s designed for me. Nothing feels right. I think that’s a very narrative thing. Yeah. And so watching though, there’s something about, and even like, there’s like a spirituality to those movies where I, it’s not, I’m really like, I’m pretty skeptical and cautious about being overly woo woo about things.

Mm-hmm. I like to entertain a little bit of that. ’cause I think it’s, [00:16:00] I Good, good for our brains. I think a little bit Woo is very cheering, you know? Yeah. Just the right amount. Like you let the right amount in, don’t let it take you over. That’s my reaction to it. Yeah. Think having, uh, I, the, the right levels is with that, is really important to me.

So I don’t just take it at, uh, face value, this sort of spirituality or whatever, but I. There’s something about those movies are very mystical, everything is alive, everything’s moving. Um, there’s a sense that there’s a lot more. One of the things I love about Movement and Jim Henson and Miyazaki is there’s always a lot of, uh, life and unexplained things in the background.

Yes. And I love that. That really illustrates how life kind of feels to me. 

Andy J Pizza: Mm-hmm. 

Katherine May: Um, and so I think there’s something about that that feels like a type of rest [00:17:00] that I couldn’t get in the real world. That’s so interesting. I watched the new Fraggle Rock this weekend. Have you seen it on Apple tv? Yeah. My dog is named Fraggle because I’m such a Fraggle fan and my dog is named a massive Henson fan, Moy.

Oh, lovely. Which is a Fraggle if you don’t know, I mean, surely, surely we can trust this audience to know that Okay. Um, if they’re the right people, they’ll, they’ll have like known that Right. Immediately. Yeah. But yeah, there, there is, I think one of the things that I really notice watching it having been a, a lifelong Jim Henson Yeah.

Mega fan. Yeah. Um, is, it’s the detail. There are little characters everywhere. And I love the way they retain that in the new version. Me 

Andy J Pizza: too. 

Katherine May: Just popping up to say hi. The Moss has a little chat with you. There’s a little worm passing that’s just got something to say. Like, there’s it, it’s like there’s infinite life and you’ve just gotta look closely enough and there’s something so beautiful about that.[00:18:00] 

I completely agree. And it’s, and I’m, I feel, uh. Like, uh, just to camp out there for a second, I feel like they captured something really true to it, and that is one of the ways that they, it just feels like easy to miss, uh, if you were trying to recreate a vibe if you didn’t really get it or understand it.

Yeah. And I love how, um, there’s these moments in Miyazaki mo uh, movies where like, on spirit away, they’re on a train. And my, maybe I’ve said this to my kids before, like, this might be my favorite part, which sounds like an exaggeration, but it’s, it makes me feel so strongly where they’re on the train.

They just go by this house that’s like in the middle of the water. Mm. And they stop. It’s not like it’s in the background. They stop and look at it like the, it, it hovers on it for like two seconds. Yeah. And that’s it. You have no idea what’s going on in that house. What, why is it out in the [00:19:00] water? What There’s like something in the yard.

There’s just something about that that feels like it gets at, at being alive in a way that is hard to describe. I, I don’t know. It’s, it’s very like, um, right, I know exactly what you mean, elusive. Um, but it, it’s also that sense that there’s, there’s actual life happening in that house. You know, it’s not a backdrop to a animated sequence.

It’s like there’s a potential other story here that feels like it’s ready-made and that, that it has been already imagined, but we are just not being shown it. And I think. It’s the delight and it’s also the very Japanese sense of which handsome captures too. Yeah. That the planet itself is sentient. You know, that there’s, there’s nothing that isn’t alive in those landscapes.

It’s not just the people or the animals inhabiting it, like everything is alive. People get, I’m, uh, anybody that listens to my podcast [00:20:00] or follows me or anything, probably get really tired of me talking about Frale Rock because I was such a huge fan of it. But I do feel I can’t help it because I feel like it’s underappreciated and I, and one of my It is, it is.

I, I think it probably has something, ’cause we had it on, we must have had it on VHS. Because I know we didn’t have HBO. Mm-hmm. And so I wonder if that’s part of it is it just wasn’t permeating the culture the same way that Sesame Street did, or the Muppet show did because it, HBO here was at least like a paid thing that most households probably didn’t have, um, at the time that it was on.

But it has so much depth. Like they, the whole idea of the show is that everything is connected. Mm-hmm. So the FRAs have the doers that are kind of smaller creatures and everything they do impacts each other and the humans impact the Fraggle and the Gores. And so there’s this huge, it’s like a lovely web.

It is. It’s a web and it’s just like this kind of, uh, a oneness [00:21:00] sense that I, I really like. So I, that’s kinda why I picked it. Let’s make this frale hour. Let’s just abandon this premise and just talk about Fra. Can I tell you, can I tell a really fascinat, I think, fascinating fact that nobody else finds interesting that me, but I’m here for it.

I hope. Finally this will, this will work on someone. Your cutaway human scenes were in like a carpenter’s workshop, right? Mm, yeah. Yeah. Our, were a lighthouse with a lighthouse keeper. Oh, I, I, I knew that they did them different. Like they made them in each culture, but I did not know that that was a lighthouse.

That is amazing. I have to tell. So we had like cantankerous Yeah, yeah. Like a cantankerous older man, uh, with a lovely white beard and a captain’s hat. And he was Scottish. And Scott Fraggle Rock was set in Scotland on an actual rock in the sea. Oh, that’s so good. That’s so good. And did he have a dog too?

He still had sprockets. Sprockets exactly the same. He steal sprocket. Yeah, man. Yeah, we had a much like, from what it sounds [00:22:00] like a much goofier American guy who’s kind of like a mad scientist. Um, I’ve, I’ve watched the American ones. Have you? He’s very, and he’s like, he’s much more sort of soft and gentle, whereas our is quite angry, which is very British.

We were happy with that. That’s so funny. That’s such a funny, I love, I love to think about the conversations that led to what, what the British version of that would be. Um, I love it. In France it was aie. Oh man. Yeah, I need to go look at all of these because I knew they were different, but I never really, I don’t think I realized they were in different settings and that they were that different.

I figured it was just like a different actor and different language and kind of, you know, no, totally different narratives. That’s so cool. That’s so cool. And in fact, we like this time with the Frale special, there’s only the American, which is a woman this time, right? Yeah. But still like a kind of inventor.

And I was, I was watching a stick. I ha haha. Well, it all falls away now and it’s all revealed True. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of breaks the illusion. Yeah. [00:23:00] That’s funny. Anyway, sorry, I have to tell you that I thought you’d like that. I love that this would become a Fraggle podcast, Fraggle fan cast. Yeah. Um, oh, we could do Henson Cast, you and me.

That would be Oh, absolutely. Just great, just great. I could talk about The Muppets a lot, but let’s not, um, what, what I’m wondering about how’s moving Castle to go back a long way? Mm-hmm. Is, would it still contain the cast of characters? I mean, I think so. Do you solitude and do you want those guys around?

I think just, I love solitude. I’m a big solitude guy. As long as I’ve got like a door that I can close and they have a great bathtub there. I’m a huge bath taker. Take a bath every day. Um, oh, you can have the bath out of my n Neighbor Toro. Oh yeah. Oh, perfect. Love it. Yeah. Large. Yes, that’s what I want.

Mini, mini swimming pool. I’m gonna, I’m gonna build this out in all these different, um, movies. Uh, but I, as long as I have like a retreat, I would like to have little [00:24:00] weird characters there. Like Caler, definitely Caler, who’s the fire, who’s like a, uh, uh, a, um, personified fire, um, anthropomorphized, um, who’s played by Billy Crystal in the American version.

So yeah, I’ll take that. Um, all of, I love all of that. And then. There’s, yeah, like I said, there’s something, there’s something almost like spiritual about that, that I, I long for it when I go on some kind of retreat. 

Andy J Pizza: Yeah. 

Katherine May: I want something, I have this, I’m saying this kind of a, as an observer of myself because I don’t fully understand what it is, and I’m not even sure that I would say that it’s good or adaptive.

Okay. But there’s something about, so I’m just doing it kind of in a curious way. I’m sharing this of like, um, I very much long [00:25:00] for direction mm-hmm. From the universe, you know? Mm-hmm. I want, or at least connection, just a feeling of. Uh, signpost, even just minor transcendence. You know, anything that’s like, just that gives me, and, and I feel like I get it when I sleep.

I have really active dreams, um, 

Andy J Pizza: most nights, and there’s something about that that makes me feel better. Um. I don’t, I don’t know if this it makes sense to anyone else, but that that’s something that I, I feel like in that space mm-hmm. I would get some of that. And then the other thing that it has, and the other reason I picked it was it has a magical door.

And this is a very A DHD thing. So it’s got a magic is interesting. I was about to ask exactly this question. Oh really? Tell me. Yeah. So, yeah, uh, it’s got a magical door that has like this little. Turn, it’s like a little circle dial thing. Mm-hmm. And it’s got four [00:26:00] quadrants. And when they spin to a different quadrant, that door leads to a different place.

Yeah. And so I thought since this is my imaginary retreat, I would be able to pick where these doors open up. And I feel like if I, if I could go onto as an a DH ADHD person, I want that level of novelty. If I could go to four, you have the whole this that’s novelty for you. Yeah. And it’s very, very ridiculous.

I’m just laughing at how grandiose it is. But it’s, that’s how I feel. Um, I love this. It’s, but it’s so restless as well. It’s, it, it would allow, it’s restless. Allow any restlessness you can throw at it, actually. Exactly. So I really like that. So should I go through these four quadrants? Yeah. Okay. Take me through the four quadrants.

You, I love that you’ve thought this through. This is awesome. I’ve been thinking about it a lot. Uh, I’ve, I’ve been thinking about a lot too, [00:27:00] because as I’ve gotten older, fun is harder. Mm-hmm. And that’s one of the saddest things. Yeah. Esp. Esp like fun is especially, um, for a neurodivergent person, I think.

Staying engaged in life. Mm-hmm. Making sure you have those things, those threads that you’re pulling and staying interested, staying curious, all of that. Mm. It can feel, especially when times are the way they are, if you don’t have some of that zest, you are dead. You are in bad, you are in a bad spot. And I can find myself in those places.

Of course, some of that’s very reasonable. Mm-hmm. Um, and necessary, and we need that too. But it gets to be dangerous. Like it feels like, oh, I’m like losing my, um, yeah. Energy if I don’t have those little things that are, and so I, I like this activity as a prompt [00:28:00] to cultivate all of the things that really make me feel alive.

Well, I think curiosity and fun feel really similar if you’re neurodivergent true. Like being, to pursue curiosity, I think. Like I don’t find stuff fun that other people find fun. Really always. You know, I always found other people’s fun, like really alienating and it’s been, finding a neurodivergent community has been so important to me in terms of understanding that my fun is their fun as well.

Yeah. Although everyone’s fun is slightly different, but it’s the same route, which is like, I wanna get deep into something that I love and that is the most fun thing, but adulthood does disrupt that, doesn’t it? Yeah. All of those duties that we have, all of those kind of domestic demands, work demands, it pulls us away from our fun.

Yeah. And it’s not easily solved by like, going out to a nightclub at the weekend, which is, you know, the, the sort of societal or going [00:29:00] shopping at the weekend or something like that. Right. The sort of societal recipe for, for having fun back in your life. I can also have this thing where. I kind, kind of like when you get into a song, uh, and you play it a hundred times mm-hmm.

And the juice is gone. I have whole threads of my life that are like that, where I’m like, like the little carcasses that you’ve sucked dry. Yeah. And so I’ve had to, I’ve, I’ve realized when I’ve gotten myself into those places where, ooh, I don’t feel curious about anything. 

Andy J Pizza: Mm-hmm. And it feels kind of scary and I can’t, and I’m trying all these old things, it’s not working.

I’ve realized that. I have to be proactive about that. Right. I have to like, make sure that I don’t, that I’m always, if something does grab me, I need to catalog it. ’cause I also have an out of sight outta mind kind of thing. I can, can forget the threads that I’m like pulling. Um, and so I like, yeah, I like this activity as a means of going over mm-hmm.

And, and [00:30:00] cataloging and, and really meditating on what are the things that really do it for me. Uh, there was something that you said a second ago that I want to go back to. It reminded me of, I, I might lose it, but it reminded me of, um, something you said on the first episode of this new, I was listening to, uh, one of the first episodes of the, of the Clearing and you were talking about, oh, I know what it was you’re talking about how.

Curate curation has become a big thing when we’re being like just ons slotted with information and content and all this. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, and then, and also though we’re in this time where the old forms of curation, curation have, they don’t work as well because we don’t have that monoculture anymore.

Andy J Pizza: Yeah. And we, we are, we have this very specialized, uh, taste profile that we have to figure out where do we find these things? ’cause we can’t [00:31:00] just go searching. We don’t have the free time to just find all these things. Yeah. And as you were saying, this notion of finding neurodivergent community where people, where there’s similar types of fun.

Yeah. That’s one of my biggest points of grief as an adult. Mm-hmm. In the era that we find ourselves in that. Back in college and, and right after that we still had enough of commonality. Mm-hmm. That if I would go out with my friends to the bar, what we would be talking about is all of the albums that released that week.

Yeah. Or you know, we just, whereas now it’s tough to find people who are watching even the same TV show that you’re watching. That’s so true. I, there’s too, there’s too much culture. Yeah. And I love that there’s too much culture. Me too. Me too. It’s, I mean, the moment you said you love Fraggle Rock, I was filled with delight.

Yeah. Because [00:32:00] honestly, it’s really hard to find anyone that’s watched the same thing as you or listened to the same album this year, or read the same book even like, and I, that kind of puts us into this perpetual state of guilt as well. Like, oh wait, yeah. Have I missed something? Have I not caught up with, you know, I read.

A lot. And then I talk to my other friends who read a lot and I’ve never read the same books as them. And I’m like, what have I been doing with my time? Have I been slacking on the reader? Am I even a reader? You know? Yeah. It’s, yeah. Yeah. And so I, yeah, I think maybe that’s where the birth of the rebirth of book clubs, um, they’ve come back with such fervor because of just that need of a little discipline that we’re, I don’t know where, this is not related to House Moon Castle or my retreat or anything, but it’s just something that came to mind, um, as you were saying that.

So we’ve gotta take you back to your diet back. You had your hand on the diet. Did I mention I had a DH adhd? I think I said that at the start. Um, so, [00:33:00] alright. Uh, don’t have to apologize again for these tangents, um, to the dial, please would be great. Back to the dial. We’re on the dial. Our hand on the dial.

We the, we’re on the, so I’ve got, my first one would be, I’d like to wake up in LA now. Right. LA is a controversial place. Not everybody likes it. I see the critiques. Okay. I’ve been there and I, I feel it. There are plenty of things that are, there are plenty of things. Not to like about LA I feel, but I am kind of a huge fan, and it’s something about it.

I think it’s almost as simple as the air. When you go outside, there’s something about this, the temperature being like exactly where you would set it, right? It feels deeply calming. It feels like, oh, everything’s all right. You could be like, doom scrolling in your bed, and then you walk outside and you’re like, ah.

Nope. [00:34:00] It’s good. We’re good. Like, it feels pretty good. We’re pretty good. Um, so I think that’s where I’d go. I’d go there, I’d go to Intelligentsia, get some coffee, go to Squirrel to get my breakfast. And there’s just something about that. I feel like waking up in LA that’d be just a, a great vibe. I always, I’ve never been to LA it always looks to, from a distance, like it’s very frenetic.

Right. Is it, is that the experience on the ground or, you know, I think it’s like, I think that what I like about the energy is that a okay, it feels almost like a foil to New York City. So I like gonna New York City. There are things I really like about it. There were times where I was like, this is really feeding me.

Um, but there’s something about, there’s like a, a callousness to. You better get it together and get on with it. Like, and you better be quick, um, about it. Like, there’s something [00:35:00] about that that doesn’t jive with me. And I think in LA even though the, the, okay, so everybody that, not everybody, but a lot of people you meet are deeply friendly and warm.

Yeah. The only little dark side of that is there’s a little bit of desperation in the air in la right? Everyone’s got a. An ambition, a goal that they’re trying to meet. Yeah. Um, but I, I don’t know. There’s something about it that I actually feel, I, I like this explanation too of, um, if you’re ever doing calls with teams and half of ’em are in New York, half of ’em are on the West Coast.

There’s just this established feeling that the West Coast people are slackers. ’cause they’re three hours behind. They’re just like, they can’t catch up. They, they put a catch up. Yeah. They’re in bed right now, like, we’re getting stuff done. So I think there’s just an energy of, um, it’s, it, to me it feels a lot more laid back.

Um Right. Which I like as well. Um, so yeah, I [00:36:00] think I, I think that’s where I would go. That’s my first dial. First turn of the dial. Yeah. And then the second, second dial is, uh, Stockholm. Ah, nice. Which I just love big contrast. Very big contrast. Again, this is, I mean, hey, I’m, I live in the land of contrast. I lo like, this is great when I, uh, I’ve developed my taste a bit in terms of music, but when I was younger, um, and I’m still a little bit of a sucker for it.

I love the songs where it’s like, like drop after drop after. Like, you thought that was the drop, this is the drop, boom. It just, like, the contrast just keeps going up. And again, it’s just the stimulation of that multiple key changes. Like, whoa, we’re on a, you know, um, I like that kind of energy. So yeah, I think that’s what is so appealing about this dial is like, I can be chilling in LA in the warm, nice vibe and then boom, Stockholm.

And the time I went there, it was super [00:37:00] cold, so I, oh yeah. Even my go in the winter, um, Stockholm in winter is a whole vibe. It is. Candles everywhere. Gloomy, light. Yes. Ice in the harbors. Yeah. Uh, it, it, it’s, it was amazing. I fell so in love with that place. Everyone so wonderful. Like everyone was wearing black and no one in the streets, like the streets are quiet.

Like, no, every if they are talking, you can’t hear them talking. Um, it just feels like, it felt like an alien planet to me, honestly. Coming from America in the best kind of way. And there’s, they have such good taste and amazing, like design and bookshops and, um, I just love to mull around that kind of, uh, space for a few hours.

So that’s definitely my second dial And open sandwiches for breakfast. Open sandwiches. Yeah. And cotton buns. And they have all these, every lunch you have, uh, wherever you go, they have like five bowls that you can just [00:38:00] pick things from. Um, I, I love it. Heaven. So we’ve done two turns of the dial, two turns of the dial.

All right. The third turn, in many ways, quite opposite pace. Not, not, maybe not opposite, but sub contrast. Very different. The third very, very different. And that’s what I love about it. That’s actually, as I was doing this like exercise, I’m thinking really hard for me to want to go somewhere for very long.

Like I, that’s, that’s, I really would prefer, and even any vacation I have, I want to think about do they have, is there a city aspect and a beach aspect? Is there, like, can we mix it up? Um, because I really need that. Third one is the most, this is the third turn of the dial. That one is gonna be question marks.

Mm-hmm. Now I have a few places that maybe I could pre-select. It’s one of these, right. But they’re ones that I’ve never been to. Oh, interesting. And they’re, it’s either it maybe Egypt. If I could just go, you know, [00:39:00] I can imagine a lot, all of the travel and airports and all that, that would ca that would it take to get there.

That sounds like too much. But if it was just a turn of the dial and it was randomly selected, I could definitely show up and Egypt, just step out of that door and into Egypt. Would love to see Cairo. See that? What’s that? Yeah, maybe C or maybe, yeah. Um, and then, uh, I would say Tokyo and then I had another Germany.

So I haven’t been to any of these places and I would love not to pick. I would love to. It’s just a novelty thing. I turned the dial. Don’t know which one it is. Walk out completely unprepared. Wow. Wow. That is, that is not relaxing. No, it’s, that’s, that’s novelty though. And that’s what it is. Yeah. It’s like when I think about, uh, retreat, I think I am rarely thinking about.

Relaxing. I’m, I’m thinking about filling up my [00:40:00] cup inspirationally and feeling Yeah. Have again, that zest. Like that’s what I’m, look, that’s what I’m lacking. I think a lot of time, yeah. If I, when I get burnout, noise, color, stimulation, input, like I, I often say I need a randomizer. I need something that’s a randomizer in my life because I need to not be choosing, which is exactly what you’re saying here.

Like, I need stuff to come at me. Sometimes that is outside of my control because when I’m in control of it, I make everything the same all the time and it’s really smooth. Yeah. And lovely, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I read the same kinds of books and I listen to the same kinds of music and I watch the same kinds of TV and everything gets the same.

And I, you know, I see my same friends. What I used to love about going to the school gates was, which I don’t anymore, my son’s too big to, you know, pick him up and drop him off. Mm. Was You’d have chats with people Yeah. That just randomized your day and they’d tell you something and you’d be like, oh really?

[00:41:00] Oh, right. Okay. That’s, and then you’d go home and be like, on Google trying to find out about it. Like those kind of randomizes are so valuable. Absolutely. I think that, uh, I also feel like it’s just so important, like I think a lot about the different types of creativity. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think when we talk about creativity, I think we’re usually talking about one specific aspect of.

Being creative and often even when we’re talking to people, we’re talking about different aspects and maybe don’t realize it. Yeah. Uh, two aspects of creativity that I’m really interested in and I try to dip into them. I think of them kind of like curious creativity and then strategic creativity. Yeah. I think they’re both super.

Important. Um, you can’t really do them at the same time, but they’re the [00:42:00] opposite. So the curiosity is starting without knowing where you’re going, knowing where you’re, you’ll end up. And strategy, like the definition of strategy is literally the opposite. We’re gonna start with the end. Yeah. And then we’re gonna work backwards.

Mm-hmm. And I actually think you need both of those. We all have those like TV shows that we loved until the end, and then we hated it because they didn’t have any of the strategy, you know? Mm-hmm. They didn’t have the strategic creativity. The reason I bring that up is because like, you let it resolve itself somehow.

Yeah. Right. And I, I think I really respect, and I, I love a thing that, like, I think a lot of the Miyazaki stuff is very curiosity, creativity, there isn’t a lot of strategy. It’s not really clear. It’s very mythical, symbolic. It’s not very obvious what this is about or what it meant, but it’s still you cry or you, you know, feel these big feelings.

Yeah. So it’s very effective. Um, I bring that up [00:43:00] because I think strategy is so over-indexed in, uh, both the culture because of the way the economy is and how much every we we’re in that survival mode. So we need to know where this is going. We need to know where this is going. We need to know this is gonna have an output that is gonna be meaningful at the end.

Yeah. And then if you’re neurodivergent, you have all these ways that you feel the need to protect yourself. Yeah. Um, for me that looks like how do I avoid getting in places where I’m in deeply low stimulation? 

Andy J Pizza: Mm. Because I will feel that pain of boredom, um, in a kind of an extreme sense. So I’m constantly thinking about how do I control.

My life, you know? Um, how do I, how do I keep the pace up? How do I, like, make sure that I’m provisioned in a way that isn’t familiar to other people, but that is my provisioning. I need stuff coming at me. Yeah. Yes. And so this is ideal. You’ve chosen the ideal. Yeah, I’ve thought about it. Um, now I’m just sad that it’s not [00:44:00] real.

Um, but, uh, I know I’m actually feeling some grief that we’re gonna have to end this conversation at some point. I know. Uh, but, uh, but yeah, I think that, um, I love the randomizer point, and I, it reminds me also of how, uh, I will, there are, like, I listen to like, um, online radio, uh, different online radio stations now.

And I feel like we get in this space where we’re very. Pessimistic for good reason in lots of ways. Pessimistic about the world and people, and I get it. I feel it very frequently, but I also think generation to generation we’re more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. Yeah, and we, there are a lot of ways in which.

Behaviors that a generation gets sucked into and addicted to. The next generation looks at that and is like, we’re, I’m not doing that. Like, yeah, we’re not gonna do that. And so I think in this moment where everything is on demand and we’re choosing everything and we’re [00:45:00] curating every minute of our lives and we’re all exhausted of the mental tax of choosing.

Yeah. Choosing is so tiring. It is. And the tax of like having to look consistent within that. True, very true. My generation was obsessed with that. Like I noticed that generational difference between myself and my son, that when I was a teenager we had to pick a stream and fully commit to it. So like if you were like, I don’t know, a bit punk, like I like to be Yeah.

You couldn’t then listen to a dance record. Yeah. That would be, that would be appalling. That would be like a massive betrayal. I mean obviously I’ve, just to be clear, I have grown out of that attitude, but when I was his age, I was fully committed to that and now he will. He just doesn’t genre. He’s, he’s really super aware of what the genres are, but it’s just like a buffet for him.

He’s just like, yeah, I can just have, I’m gonna like a bit of opera here and then I’m gonna love some swing, and then I’m gonna take some [00:46:00] Brazilian funk. He’s talked to me about that a lot. That’s cool. I know, I know about funk guys. I’m not, I’m still with it. Yeah. Um, but it, it’s like he’s got this, this amazing array out in front of him that it’s like, yeah, I’ll take a little bit of everything.

Thank you very much. So different and I think it is very, very different. I also wonder if. With my own kids, their habits are very similar to that. Mm-hmm. And I’ve noticed that in their generation that’s pretty common. And even the bands coming out of their generation, like Yeah. Super into, into this band Geese and, uh, Cameron Winter.

And they, they are so eclectic and they have a, there’s a lot of stuff that you recognize like, oh, there’s a Rolling Stones kind of bit, there’s a Bob DIY thing going on, but they do, they’re just not beholden to any one way of being. Yeah. And even track to track. It’s just all over the place in a way that’s really refreshing.

But I, I see in my kids too, there is a little bit of incoherence in their. [00:47:00] Like, who am I? It’s not, there is, yeah. We, we were given identities in a much stronger way. Yeah. I think. Um, so yeah, I don’t know. Uh, but that’s, yeah. So that’s my third dial is just random. Wait, so wait, is there a fourth turn at the dial?

Yeah, there’s a fourth turn. The fourth turn is uh, I want to go to the hills of Yorkshire. Um, I lived there for five years. I would love to go to home Firth, uh, I’ve never seen last of the summer one, but that’s, haven’t you ever seen last? I’ve never watched. Oh, my watched. I lived there though. I lived there.

You must rectify this immediately. Well, at the time, like living there, that’s all. And it was like, oh, last of summer one. I’m like, yeah, I don’t know that, but I’ve heard about it. Um, and I know, know a little bit about the vibe, but, um, but I actually lived it, lived it last, the summer wine. Yeah. It’s where there are a lot of people that retired that go there.

We kind of randomly picked it, but it was, it’s [00:48:00] gorgeous and, uh, it, it’s, I would love to spend the evening going on a Yorkshire hike, ending up in a pub. I have a pub in mind. Even no music, no TVs. Lovely. Just with some friends I, Yorkshire pubs are little, little heavens they are. Absolutely. So that, that’s, I think those are all my dials.

This is wonderful. So normally I ask people if they’re gonna bring a cultural artifact, but I’m not sure you’re gonna need one. Are you, like you can just step out into any major in the world? I’m pretty busy. Yeah. Or do you have something in mind? Uh, I am pretty busy, but I think that, uh, I would probably, I just brought, uh, the Little Prince to my last vacation and reread that.

I don’t reread things very frequently, but that’s probably my all time favorite book. And I [00:49:00] love that it has this ability, like the things we were talking about earlier, and I think all of this is kind of getting at. Trying to get back in touch with as much of a pure creative side as I can. And I use the word creative, but I actually feel at a loss of words for what this is, because there was a period of time, and sometimes I talk about it this way, but there’s a period of time where it would be called the right brain.

But there’s so much criticism around how it’s really nuanced, whether it’s left brain, right brain, they’re all involved just, and, and I actually feel kind of annoyed. I get that we wanna be accurate and, and uh, that concept was really useful to me. Very don’t take it away useful. It was very useful. And, but to me it’s more like, okay, I don’t care if they’re the hemispheres of the brain.

I know the difference between being in this zone and that zone and, [00:50:00] um. I got about halfway through this audio book, which doesn’t sound very impressive except for, it’s like a 20 hour book and it’s called A Master in his Emissary. It’s all about left and right hemisphere. It’s trying to be Oh, like yeah, the master’s, Emmi, SPHE.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s trying to be very nuanced. I think still there’s criticisms around like the science of it, but, um, I think, and I think the, the philosophy still holds up and is pretty respected. Um, but he makes this great argument around when you’re in what they would call, what he would call the left brain hemisphere or you’re in the mode of parts, like mm-hmm.

Pulling things apart, being rational thinking, probably a little bit more strategic. Yeah. Uh, the, the, it’s really useful. It’s very important. Uh, but the problem is you can get stuck there easily. 

Andy J Pizza: Right. 

Katherine May: And his argument is. That [00:51:00] part of yourself doesn’t respect the other part. 

Andy J Pizza: Mm-hmm. 

Katherine May: But the other part does respect that, the rational side.

So if you talk to creative people, I haven’t met very many creative people. She’s very true in life. It’s so true. It’s so true. And it, the more that I’ve thought about it, the more I’ve become kind of on a mission to figure out what are the things that snap you back into that other softer side of you mm-hmm.

That senses wholeness and has this, you know, in touch with the symbolic and that. So I think that’s what this whole thing was about, is I, I am always, and I’m always trying to build into my life things that snap me back because against my will, the world we live in requires so much of the other one, and it’s so easy to get stuck there.

Yeah. Yeah. When did you first read The Little Prince? Was it, is it a childhood book or is it something you’ve come to as an adult? So it’s something where [00:52:00] I think, I don’t really remember how I got a copy of it. I know it was from one of my teachers. Right. I don’t know if they gave it to me or if I accidentally took it, but I had, might have stolen it.

No big deal. I might have stolen it. I don’t know. I can’t be for sure. Um, but I didn’t read it right away. I don’t even remember how old I was when it was given to me in quotes. Um, but when it came into your possession, well, I didn’t, I can’t be so passage tense is so useful sometimes. Uh, so I can’t be sure when that happened, but I know I didn’t read it then.

I didn’t read it until I was in high school. I don’t remember why. What? ’cause I wasn’t a big reader when I was a teenager. Um mm-hmm. Or a kid Really. Um, and I read it. I read it in probably like one day. It’s pretty short book. Um, but I remember. Feeling like everything had changed. Yeah. It was one of the first books that I read that had that, I mean, [00:53:00] I’m sure everybody can relate to that.

You have those books where like, 

Andy J Pizza: yeah, the 

Katherine May: book looks like that. The world looks different in a dramatic way and nobody understands ’cause nobody had that experience. Um, and now I love, every time I dip into that book, I feel like it snaps me back into that, that other side. So there’s like this kind of pure, pure moment there that’s like, that’s available for you.

Presumably you can’t go in there too often. You have to have a little, little space between it, right? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I haven’t, I reread it this year. I haven’t probably read it in six or seven, eight years maybe. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was effective. It di and I kind of had low expectations because rereading something, even though I would think of it as my favorite book, rereading it, you just don’t know how you’re gonna feel.

And, um, yeah, it, it definitely puts me in that place. I love the, the nonsensical, uh, stuff of myth [00:54:00] and fairytales and this sort of creative work. Does something to you that, uh, I I, that we’re like, oh, this makes more sense than, than real. Um, and that’s can what does every time. Can you outline the story a little for anyone that hasn’t read it?

Maybe, maybe you’ve got some new converts here, but, um, what’s the, what’s the premise? Yeah. So the premise is the author Crash Lands in the desert. Um, he’s an air, he’s a, he’s a, um, pilot and he comes across this little prince who’s a boy. And, you know, initially you’re not really sure if this is real or not.

Like is he really having this encounter? Is it a mirage, is it a hallucination? And they spend time while he is fixing his plane over a few days talking, and the little prince is telling him the journey from his tiny planet to earth. And it’s got, um, it’s very melancholy [00:55:00] and bittersweet. There’s some real tragedy and.

But there are these little anecdotes as this Prince is going from planet to planet. He’s encountering these different types of adults. And, and actually I feel like each one is kind of obsessed with that strategic brain that we were talking about. They’ve lost themselves. And so a lot of it is about, it’s kind of like, um, uh, it’s, it kind of reminds me of how, when you think of Peter Pan versus Hook, that they, they’re the, there’s these two opposites that are intention, like Peter Pan is about a kid that will never grow up.

Right. And obviously it’s about all kinds of things, um, beyond that. But then Hook is very much about an adult that’s lost their inner child. Yeah. And I like that. Tension of the opposites that you, and it’s again, back to this like strategic brain, curious brain, [00:56:00] rational brain, irrational brain, all that.

Like there is this, I’m very into the seasonality of that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in this book, it’s very much about how you get back in touch with your childhood self. And it always feels like a book that’s really written for adults To me. I definitely, I mean, I’ve only read it as an adult, so maybe I don’t, I don’t have that childhood thread to connect me to understand like what it would’ve look like then.

But it feels like something’s being snuck under the fence with this book for me. Oh yeah. Like I really love that. Yeah, me too. I don’t, I, I’m not very convinced by the strong line between children’s books and adult books anyway. Me neither. I think, I think adults who love reading children’s books are the best people anyway.

Yeah. But um, yeah. Interesting that that’s your choice. Yeah. So that’s gonna reset you and that’s going to give you that pure hit of creative thought and, and just take you back down to get rid of all of that mechanical thinking out your [00:57:00] brain. Yeah. I love this. And we also asked if there was an artifact that you’d bring with you from home that would either comfort you or just remind you of where you’re from or, or even be practical.

Yeah. Is there something, I mean, is there something this castle really needs? It feels like everything’s there, but is there something you’d bring? So I was thinking, um, I would bring probably like a Dream journal sketchbook. Okay. Um, I love. I mentioned this before, I’m really into dreams on a bunch of levels.

I think at the very least, again, it’s the same theme. It’s getting into that other side of the brain and self. I feel I’m not really, I’d love, I’d love to entertain the idea that dreams are somehow otherworldly spiritual. I, who I love it. It feels, it feels true. Mm-hmm. I don’t [00:58:00] really know that. I wouldn’t really say that it’s true.

Um, but I like to entertain that. The thing I really love about it, I love about Dreams is that. They are a, an escape. And I guess this whole theme is an escape from ego. Mm. And control and, yeah. And I, I, I love how Youngian talk about when they’re interpreting a dream. Something that I think they get really, really right, is that you don’t trust your perspective in the dream.

That’s the ego’s perspective. Interesting. Right? So if you’re like, okay, I’m dreaming and there’s a bad guy there, then the, the interpreter will look at everything and be like, let’s put all the evidence together. What? Right. What, what told you they were a bad guy. You were just assuming they’re a bad guy.

Or when you, you know, you find a monster and you run from it. Like, how do you know that was a monster? How do you know they were gonna hurt you? Like, and it, and you really, they’re trying to encourage a [00:59:00] curiosity into your subconscious. And that’s the dream is if it’s sort of external to you almost, it’s that it’s this thing that’s happened that you have a perspective with him, which.

That’s quite a surprising idea to me. It is a, it’s a weird idea, but I think the, you know, I went on, one of my big threads in hyper fixations was Jungian, uh, thought. Mm-hmm. 

Andy J Pizza: And I have kind of have this feeling like that all, there’s a lot of ways where the academic and scientific community really doesn’t want anything to do with young.

And I think, I think they have some good critiques that are very, uh, justified. Yeah. Yeah. It’s fine. But an element, it’s fine. Yeah. We, yeah. There’s too, there’s too much there to pull out, but there’s plenty. Um, but I almost feel like it’s like the kind of medicine that we discovered. Mm-hmm. And we thought it did one thing and then later we were like, oh, this is actually much better at treating this other thing.

And so, yeah. I feel like Jungian thought really got put [01:00:00] into psychology and psychoanalysis and then therapy and that sort of thing. And all of the way it doesn’t. Its efficacy rate for that sort of stuff. Yeah. Doesn’t necessarily Doesn’t stand up. Yeah. It doesn’t really stand up to a lot of the modern things that we do, but I think in terms of like if you aren’t dealing with a major mental health issue, yeah.

Uh, I have a feeling that if you are stuck in that rational egoic brain, if you’re someone that is going to work every day and just going through the motions and trying to make more money and you know, all that sort of thing. Yeah. It’s almost a way of engaging in life and art. It’s like, it’s a sort of spiritual and philosophical tool, rather.

Yeah. And so it’s rather than a, a therapeutic tool in, in terms of like a person in crisis. And it makes me sad that because of its framing, it’s been rejected because as I’ve read, it’s so rich in, it’s so rich, so [01:01:00] rich. It’s so interesting too. Yeah. It’s just so interesting and actually think a lot. But that’s the thing is that it’s like we’re allowed just to find something interesting.

Yeah. What if it’s just, yeah, it’s just interesting. And I get, you know, I get the thing of like, well, there’s a rational critique if people are using this and, and especially the more out there parts of it and it’s doing more harm than good on peop and people that are sick or, you know, whatever. Yeah. Um, I get all of that, but I think it even in terms of like so much of, uh, of his work.

So perfect for artists like mm-hmm. A man in his symbols is really like just an engagement in imagery and what it, yeah. The power of it and understanding it on a deeper level. It’s, it made such a big impact on me as an illustrator. Really, really has in direct kind of obvious ways. Um, but I love that it’s full of little nuggets like that around, you know, when you go in, when you go into your dream, you think about your dream.

Just ma, two things that it does. One is like, don’t be so quick to [01:02:00] identify with the point of view with the ego. Mm-hmm. That you’re moving through useful tool for life. Very. Use some kind of intellectual tool for life. Yes. And then also. It’s safe to assume that everything in this dream is a part of you.

It literally is. ’cause it’s in your mind, but also it’s part of parts of yourself kind of working out things. Um, and so the reason I’m trying to remember, oh, why I brought that up is because I brought the dream journal and, and so I love dreams. I will often take notes about my dream when I wake up. But in my every day, I really don’t have the time.

Yeah. I don’t really have the time and it makes me very sad. And so if I had a retreat and I have that space, I would be, I really want to go through a period of time in my life where I’m not, I have a dream journal that’s a sketchbook and I’m drawing the dreams. Mm-hmm. Instead of just writing about them.

And the times I have done that. The dream recall aspect is so much stronger. Like if I flip through that, I’m, oh, I, I remember feeling that. Um, yeah. [01:03:00] So that’s definitely something. My dream, I I, I spent about six months writing down, I think it was in my mid twenties. Yeah. Wrote down my dreams every morning and every day the detail got greater and greater.

And in fact, it was, it became self-limiting for that reason because yeah, it got to the stage where I was remembering my dreams in so much detail that there was, it would’ve taken an hour to write it down every day. Yes. And one of the interesting, I still sometimes find that journal and I read through it and I, I am still now seeing ideas come up in my work that are in that dream journal.

That’s amazing. And I’m, I’ve forgotten it consciously, but they’re, they’re coming up still. And I think that’s one of the good critiques of. Youngian thought, even though I am a fan, is, you know, he had a psychotic breakdown. Yeah. And I think that, I’m not saying that’s directly related to, it could be there, it could be genetic, it could be all kinds of things.

Mm-hmm. But just that as an example, you writing down your dreams and they, they get longer and your [01:04:00] memory gets more full of them until you could lose yourself in the symbolic side. So I think you could, it just became completely impractical to be engaged in it anymore. Like you just, you had to let it go.

It does, it does. So as a retreat, I feel like that’s, that’d be a great thing to just get, just touch base with and get in tune with. And I like, like I said, what I like about dreams, really, even though I’d love, I love to dabble in thinking maybe they’re more than this, but I think they’re definitely a picture.

Of how you’re really feeling. And it’s an ego check in a couple different ways where, um, sometimes it’s like you’re feeling these big feelings, existential encounters with your shadow and all this stuff, and it’s really big. And then sometimes your dreams are really humbling ’cause you’re like, oh, that was about how I forgot the groceries in the car.

Andy J Pizza: Yeah. It’s so, it’s again, it’s, yeah. You know, in, 

Katherine May: yeah. So I, I like that it’s just a way to get past your ego and be like, okay, what’s going on? It sounds, it sounds [01:05:00] absolutely perfect. Yeah. And so you’re spending your days, you’re, you’re getting up, you’re dream journaling, you are exploring cities. Anything else you’re gonna do during that time?

Are you, are you gonna be drawing for example? I think so. I think so. You know what’s interesting about drawing? I feel very much like a writer and an illustrator. Yeah. I’m very in the middle of that. Uh, and I think that. Drawing didn’t come from a place of passion, it came from a coping mechanism. 

Andy J Pizza: Mm-hmm.

It was literally a thing where at any time I almost any time I could draw and that would eliminate boredom. Yeah. And so for me, I don’t know, I guess I don’t know if there would be drawing, ’cause I’d be trying to fill this up with nothing boring. Um, and so you might not need drawing. Not needing, not needing drawing.

Yeah. And now drawing is both, it can be a coping mechanism. So there are lots of times where I’ll reach for it when I know like, oh, there’s gonna be a bout of boredom [01:06:00] coming up. Um, or it’s more like a tool for communicating. Like I, I really kind of think of it that way. So I don’t know, maybe I’d take a break from drawing.

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I have never succeeded in taking a break from writing. Really? Yeah. Like a, yeah. As soon as I say I’m gonna take a break, I’m like, oh no, I’ve gotta write a huge thing now. Sorry guys. I’m gonna invent a whole new universe. You know? I’m more like that with writing. Yeah. And I actually think there’s something too about, like, again, going into, so much of creativity for me is like understanding how to work with your brain.

How do you, it’s, it’s so fickle, it’s so difficult to, like you, I’ve, I’ve thought about it like. Um, it, this came from that book Master in his emissary mm-hmm. Where he talks about creativity is like falling asleep. Mm-hmm. It’s not something that you can force to happen. It’s, you can create circumstances where it, it’s more likely to show up.

[01:07:00] Unfortunately, one of those circumstances is what you just described, which is, um, pretending not to look at it. You know, like, pretend like I’m not gonna do that. Yeah. And that’s exactly when your brain’s like, okay, here’s a huge creative idea. All the days I spend when I’m like, turning off at my desk going, come on.

Yes. You know? And as soon as you go, oh, it’s okay. It’s, it’s like having a cat. You know? You try and make friends with the cat, the cat’s like, no, thank you. You’re so lame. So true. You turn away from the cat book, it’s like, hi. It’s so true. And so who knows? I’ll bring a sketchbook. I got the Dream Journal.

Yeah. Maybe I’ll probably think of my best idea. Uh, in fact, I will say, uh, a few of the biggest creative breakthroughs I’ve ever had came on vacation. Yeah. Always. It just, it’s, it’s just likely to happen. Well, a work of great genius may be born here. Um, so yeah. It’s time to go home. Okay. I guess, how do you know when you are ready?

Is there a moment for you when you’re [01:08:00] like, okay, I’m done. Or do you want to, do you never wanna go? Are you kind of like singing, don’t stop me now? I think for me, with the retreat, there’s three phases. Mm-hmm. There is the resistance phase. You’re like, I can’t let go of all the I got. So why am I doing this?

All this stuff. If I’m uncomfortable, everything’s wrong. This is not the right place for me. I made a bad choice. I shouldn’t have ever come here. Yes. And then if you are in it, and this is one of the things, this is a critique of America. America doesn’t know how to holiday. They can, they think they can do it in four days.

You don’t have much time. That’s the problem. Days. You’ve got like two weeks a year or something. Oh yeah. No. It’s my critique of the system, not the people. Yeah, yeah. Uh, they like the first four days, that’s your resistant phase. You’re like, I can’t let go of everything. I don’t even like vacation. That’s why.

Yeah. Four days. Yeah. That’s just the beginning. A lot of that’s just getting into it. That’s the on-ramp. Exactly. And that’s why a lot of, I think a lot of Americans think they don’t like holidays or vacations ’cause they’ve only ever had that little section. The first section. The next section [01:09:00] is, I don’t ever want to go back.

You know? Yep. Oh, these are so familiar to me. You’re like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I resisted this. W work sucks. I don’t even wanna do that. I hate bills, I hate all this stuff. Um, and then, you know, you’re done when you’re like, okay, I’m, I, I need to go back. I wish we could, could we end this a day earlier?

’cause I need to go get on this creative thing. Um, so that’s, yeah, that’s how you know. So you know, you’re gonna be really clear. And is there something that you’ll bring back home with you, an idea or an item back to your home? I would love to just bring back. One creature from a Miyazaki world to just be in my house.

I, I, you know, I saw this, I saw this, uh, 

Andy J Pizza: sorry, exci excited. Look, 

Katherine May: I saw this, uh, like, I don’t know, short form video. And it was a guy, and he is like looking longingly by a river, and it’s got a little [01:10:00] voiceover that says, and it repeats it a bunch of times. Man, I wish Pokemon was real. And I thought, yeah, like my son shares that sentiment.

That’s me. Like, maybe not Pokemon, but all the, like, all these different things. I just wi I have this feeling that, and it’s what my, all my kids’ books around invisible things are about. Yeah. It, I have this feeling that what I love about, uh, that idea is that we’re, we are surrounded by like 95% of the universe is invisible to us.

Andy J Pizza: Yes. So 

Katherine May: we are surrounded by weird, almost magic, strange things, and I think we have, when we get into that side of the brain, we get a sense of it. We’re like, we know. Stuff’s going on. I’ve got some sensory things telling me there’s stuff 

Andy J Pizza: there. There’s stuff 

Katherine May: happening. Yeah. And so I would love to bring back one of those creatures just to be like a little reminder.

Like, you have, which one? Are you gonna pick one [01:11:00] or is uh, or does it matter? I mean, maybe it would, it would follow you home. Yeah. I, I like the ones that don’t have names. I like all of the, in the bathhouse and spirited away. I like all the ones. We don’t know what they are. We never hear anything about ’em.

So be one of those. Or, um, movement has that where there’s like these little creatures in a tree or something. You don’t know what they are. Yeah. Be one of those. Be one of these. We don’t know what it is. Um, yeah. That, that’s what I want. I have to show you. Yes. No face could, I mean it was definitely up.

There’re my, yeah, no Face is definitely, uh, a contender. Um, I don’t want him to eat me. I don’t obviously either. But I just feel like he’s a kindred spirit. I absolutely agree. There’s something, I understand that feeling of wanting to eat the world. I, I think that’s what this whole retreat was. That’s what this all about.

Yeah. Could I just have the whole world at once please. Um, [01:12:00] yeah. Yeah. Let me swallow it all. Yeah. 

Andy J Pizza: Yeah. I relate. And 

Katherine May: thank you so much for taking us on retreat with you. It has been such a joy. Thanks. And, um, I really hope you get to do it one day. Me too. Maybe in a dream. The cold’s beginning to get at me a little.

Now my eyes are making friends with the dark. One of my favorite sites of the year is the silhouette of bare winter trees against the dark sky, kind of black and black. You realize the depth of texture that’s possible. Even in the dark is absolutely lovely, and also the glowing windows of houses as you pass.

Suddenly they look really inviting and mysterious, like there’s a whole world in there that you’d forgotten really existed. I think that takes us [01:13:00] straight back to Zaki, doesn’t it? I hope you really enjoyed that. I, as you know, loved it, and I think Andy is just such a wonderful leader in a world that wants to talk about neurodiversity as a problem or is something that isn’t real.

He obviously does not believe that, but what he actually does is talk about how to use that brain. In a way that feels satisfying and joyful rather than how to treat it or how to get around it or how to ignore what it needs. And his vastly successful, wide ranging career. I mean, this guy’s even been on Sesame Street, that’s surely the peak of anyone’s career life.

Uh, just goes to show how well we can live when we treat [01:14:00] ourselves as we need to be treated. And for me, that is walking around in the dark in the winter, trying to get a little bit colder after a day indoors. I definitely still need my fresh air, even when the air is maybe a little too fresh for some.

Listen, you’ll take care of yourselves. Do tune into Andy’s podcast as well. Creative pep talk. It will do you the world of good. And if you enjoyed this one, please like it, subscribe it, do whatever you need to do. Whatever your app allows, oops, needy fell over for them. It’s not helpful. That’s the problem with walking in the dark, right, and I will see you next week for a lovely new romp through someone’s creative imagination as we explore how they dream of rest.[01:15:00] 

Until then, take lots of care. I’ll see you soon.