Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello. This is Katherine May here. Welcome to The Clearing. I am currently finding a little clearing in my day by doing a jigsaw I think I’d have done it actually, but my son suggested it. He saw, uh, one in a Halloween display in the window out of our local shop, and was like, “Can we buy it?” And I mean, I’m always looking for opportunities to hang out with him now that he’s 14.

You can hear the, the good box noise. I think, uh, other parents of teenagers might recognize that, like, you know, used to do things together, and now it’s really hard to find stuff that he wants to do with me somewhat heartbreakingly. [00:01:00] Um, so yeah, so I jumped at the chance. I was like, “Yeah, yeah, absolutely, we’ll do a jigsaw.”

And, um, I mean, of course, I’m now completely obsessed with it, and I’m never gonna get anything done again, right? It’s on my dining table. It’s in full view all the time. It can’t be moved until, uh, it’s done. Although, in all fairness, I do have one of those kind of cool, um… Well, I’m, I’m using the term cool very expansively there.

Um, cool to me, um, like, big jigsaw folders that you can, uh, like, make your jigsaw and then fold it up and move it so that you can actually move it off the table. But nevertheless, I’m sort of, I’m fully committed, and so it’s on the dining table. We can’t eat again. Sorry, that’s it now, family, until the jigsaw’s done.

Um, anyway, I’m massively into it. It’s a really good one. It’s got, like, a, um, ah, it’s got an armchair in the foreground and some [00:02:00] shelves with, I would say, kind of curios from around the world, as if it’s the, uh, it’s the sort of bookshelves of a global traveler. Um, and there’s a really good black cat on the chair that looks just like my cat, BB, which I think is why we both really wanted to do it.

So yeah, so I am jigsawing today while I’m talking to you. I hope you don’t mind. Anyway, how are you? I hope you are very well indeed, and you are taking some breaks in this extremely hectic world. Um, Septembers are always really busy for me. They seem to be the moment in the year, it’s like everybody forgets I exist, and I’m quite happy with that all through the summer.

Um, but in September, the world wakes up again. They’re like, “Oh, wait. Isn’t there that woman who wrote a book about winter? We must get in contact with her.” And, uh, just the, I don’t know. It all just [00:03:00] starts up, and I start kind of feeling quite overwhelmed and having to say no to things and feeling guilty about it, which I must learn not to do, but there you go.

That’s how the world finds me. Um, and just in general, everything feels quite… A lot. Um, and it’s my birthday this week as I record this, which is extremely exciting for me. I am still basically a child and look forward to these moments. Um, so yeah, it’s a lot. But one of the reasons why things are stepping up for me this year, which if you’re on my social feeds you may have noticed, but I’m gonna let you know about this in case you’re not, is that we have launched the covers of my, uh, my latest book, which is coming out, well, next March.

I keep saying May, that’s wrong. If you hear me say May, just ignore me. I can’t do numbers and I can’t do months, but there we go. That’s, that’s just how it is. Um, but [00:04:00] yeah, if you haven’t caught the news, do take a look either on my Instagram or on my Substack, which, you know, there’s loads of which you can read for free, including this.

Um, and it’s called Tending, and it is a book about caregiving, about taking care. Um, I wrote it just after the time when my husband had lung cancer. Uh, not the lung cancer, a lung cancer, as I keep saying. Um, and you know, I had to drop everything to look after him, and in the aftermath of that, I really, really wanted to talk about what it is to be a carer and what it means.

Because for me, a whole load of sort of assumptions dropped into my mind about what a good carer looks like and how I had to be very sort of saintly and self-sacrificing. Um, and of course they were, [00:05:00] as many carers will jump up to tell me now, they were just impossible standards for me to follow. And I really had to sort of break myself before I could understand w- what it actually is to give care and how it has to be integrated into normal life.

Um, anyway, I, I sort of wanted to write a book about the inside of my head during a period of caring, like k- what the sort of mind of the carer looks and feels like, or, or me as a carer, ’cause of course that’s one of the things about writing from life is that it’s not, it’s not… it doesn’t look exactly like everybody, but it does look like one person and we can as readers- generalize from that, but also relate, relate in loads of different ways.

Um, and I, yeah, that’s, that’s how I write. That’s what I always do. I’m always looking for not the universal, but the specifics, and I often [00:06:00] find that when I write about the specifics, that’s when people relate to my work the most. So yeah, do have a little look. I will put some links in the bio so that you can, um, check it out and, and just read what I’ve written about writing Tending.

Um, and also you can have a look at the really beautiful covers, um, which are different for the US and the UK. Um, they’re always different. We, we kind of, I don’t know They don’t, the, the, the sort of two, uh, territories don’t quite match up in what they want and need. So I have these two really beautiful covers, um, that I honestly could not tell you which is my favorite between the two of them.

They’re both absolutely gorgeous. Um, and so, yeah, do have a look at those if you haven’t already. Um, anyway, I’m not here to talk about that today or about jigsaws. Um, I’m here to talk about this week’s guest, which is the British, or who is … [00:07:00] I’m sure he’d correct me. The British comedian Pierre Novellie. Uh, Pierre is, uh, just I mean, an absolutely hilarious person, obviously, as you would expect from a comedian.

But he’s also autistic, and he was diagnosed like me late in life, except he’s kind of a bit more than 10 years younger than me. And so he’s had a really different experience of learning he was autistic and sort of coming out, if you will, as autistic in the world. And I was really curious to talk to him about that after reading his book, which is called Why Can’t You Just Enjoy Things?

Um, it’s a, it’s a kind of like in many ways a very practical guide to, uh, understanding autism. Um, and, and of course, as he’s like very keen to own, every autistic person is different, and so there is no one way of kind of explaining or making sense of autism or [00:08:00] understanding what autistic people need.

But it’s really important that lots of different people talk about exactly what their experience is of being autistic because there’s always something that we learn from it, either by understanding that we’re different to that or thinking, “Yes, I’m exactly the same as that,” and nobody else has ever said this before.

I just think the cultural moment we’re having around autism is so, so important. And so having admired his Radio 4 show, uh, which you can check out on BBC Sounds and which is absolutely hilarious, um, and having also been to see him in Edinburgh this year, um, I really wanted to get a conversation with Pierre, and I think you’re gonna really, really enjoy it.

It, for me, helped me to think about other autistic people I know as well as myself. Um, but we also talk about what it’s like being a sort of representative of autism out in the world, which [00:09:00] can be, as you can imagine, uh, particularly in this wonderful age of delightful online communication, um, quite a challenging thing to talk about and quite a challenging, uh, way to present yourself out in the world.

So I commend the conversation to you, and I hope you very much enjoy it. Pierre also offers us, um, a sort of very characteristic vision of rest that I think many, many people will think, “Oh, yes. Yes, please.” Anyway, I’ll leave you to have a listen. Take care Hi, Pierre. Welcome to The Clearing. 

Pierre Novellie: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Katherine May: It’s lovely to have you. I was, um, I was just saying that I had a very embarrassing situation with you a couple of weeks ago when after booking you for the podcast, I found myself sitting next to you in a cafe and didn’t know whether to say hello or not. 

Pierre Novellie: I don’t think it was embarrassing. I think it was, uh, uh, serendipitous and quite cool.

I, I, I was very pleased. I like that kind of thing. I think that kind of thing probably happens more than we think. [00:10:00] 

Katherine May: I think so. I mean, I, I think I got all up in my head because I recognized your voice, but I’m so terrible at faces, and I was like, “Oh, I think it’s him,” but is it enough to recognize someone speaking?

Pierre Novellie: Oh, was it by voice? That’s cool. 

Katherine May: By voice, yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: Ah, that’s cool. 

Katherine May: You have got quite a distinctive voice, haven’t you? 

Pierre Novellie: Do you think? I… That, that’s the first time that’s happened to me, though, by voice. 

Katherine May: Mm. I can only recognize people by voice and by, um, the movement of their face rather than the features of their face.

So everyone’s- 

Pierre Novellie: Mm … 

Katherine May: face has, like, a distinctive way of, I don’t know, holding itself, and particularly when people are speaking, like mouths are very, very distinctive. There’s a very distinct pattern to everyone’s, like, lips, essentially. 

Pierre Novellie: They can tell, um… I think it’s, uh, fully, fully ethnically Japanese people who grew up speaking Portuguese instead of Japanese have different facial structure to people who grew up speaking Japanese.

Katherine May: Really? Yeah, that doesn’t, doesn’t surprise me at all. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah, even though, like, there’s no… It’s not like a [00:11:00] kind of bone structure difference across ethnicities. It’s- Sure … it’s the same ethnicity, but yeah, just different muscles. Musculature. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 

Pierre Novellie: yeah, yeah. I 

Katherine May: mean, I… You can always tell a French speaker, for example, I think, by the way their mouths move.

Like, I… You know, that’s, that’s very distinctive to me, but, um- 

Pierre Novellie: They drop down a bit. 

Katherine May: Yeah, but also, like, quite a relaxed top lip. 

Pierre Novellie: Mm. 

Katherine May: Mm-mm. Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Katherine May: I… And when I try and speak French, I also relax my top lip just to, you know, just for the authenticity. 

Pierre Novellie: Yes. Do you know the thing about the Russians and their tongue?

Katherine May: No. It’s the 

Pierre Novellie: only European language group where they, their, their tongue rests in the basin of their lower jaw. It doesn’t h- suction to their mouth roof at rest- Oh, wow … like ours does. So- 

Katherine May: Oh, that’s interesting … 

Pierre Novellie: and it makes sense. If you, if you leave it in the basin of your jaw and you try to say, you know, “Nyet po nyemaya”

like other sort of Russian sounds- … it, I think it fits. 

Katherine May: It does. It does. And then, and then also you get that chin movement that I would think, “Oh yeah, you looked quite [00:12:00] Russian then.” 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: This 

Katherine May: is the point where my son would tell me I’m being racist, so I probably better stop. I don’t know. 

Pierre Novellie: No. That’s at, at, at worst xenophobic.

They’re not a different race, the Russians, and, and race is made up anyway, so. 

Katherine May: It’s fine. Good. Yeah. Well, it’s lovely to have you here. I am essentially investigating with this podcast not just the rest that people dream of taking, but the rest they actually take, and I think that creative people, and we always interview loads of neurodivergent people on this podcast too- Have a weird relationship to rest.

Mm. I think we find it very hard to do, but I’m curious as whether that applies to you. Are you someone that is able to take a break or even wants to? 

Pierre Novellie: Um, I’m not very good at taking a break. I’m not good at going on holiday. Um… 

Katherine May: Mm. Do you… So, so you, would you ever go on holiday if nobody else wanted to go with you?

Pierre Novellie: Probably [00:13:00] not. Mm. There would always be, like, a reason. Um- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: my, uh- uh, if- if- if you’re counting a holiday as something where you set it up, you- you’re going ’cause you want to go- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: then I- I didn’t go on a holiday until, like, from, from during uni all the way through till when I was 29 maybe. 

Katherine May: Wow, okay. 

Pierre Novellie: I went on s- a couple of stag dos, and I went to go see my family-

in South Africa, but that’s not- Stag 

Katherine May: dos are no fun. Stag dos are no fun. 

Pierre Novellie: They can vary. 

Katherine May: Um, 

Pierre Novellie: no, I didn’t go on holiday. I- I was- Mm … I was gigging. I was trying to do stand-up, you know. Um, and that made it harder being freelance, where you go, “Oh, I’m, I lose money if I go away.” Yeah. “I’m not around.” Yeah. I’m not very good at it.

Yeah. No. 

Katherine May: So how are you gonna find imagining a, a sort of dream retreat from the world? Is that gonna be- … unappealing? 

Pierre Novellie: No, it’s in- it- it’s [00:14:00] incredibly appealing is the strange thing. I- I just, I- I- I can’t quite- picture the parameters, I can’t quite make it fit as a realistic idea. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: Um, that’s the part that’s difficult, I think.

But I, I, I want to. I mean, I actively would like to, but the trouble is I… all the versions of it where I imagine doing it still involve me doing things. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: Whereas, 

Katherine May: uh- Well, that’s, that’s fine. I mean, I- Yeah. Well, it’ll be… Your book’s called Why Can’t I Just Enjoy Things?, which seems very- Yeah

pertinent to the conversation we’re about to have. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. 

Katherine May: But, uh, and it’s about your experience of, like, learning you’re autistic as an adult after being basically called out by a heckler on stage, which I think- Yeah … is marvelous. Um, I do, I do think the kind of adult diagnosed autistics quite often recruit quite aggressively.

Like, “You’re one, and you’re one, and you’re one.” 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve bitten a few people. 

Katherine May: Have you? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is… I mean, it’s maybe not vampiric, but it’s interesting, isn’t it? That you, I don’t know, [00:15:00] you, you learn to see a certain set of needs and behaviors, I think, and it is a bit like a new lens being put over the world, and you’re suddenly like, “Oh, I see why I get on with the people that are closest to me.”

That was, that was one of the- Yeah … things for me. 

Pierre Novellie: The social clustering, absolutely. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But that, that makes me wonder about autistic people in particular and holidays, because I do think that we… Or, or breaks altogether. Like, I do think we struggle with, you know, all of the things like newness and, like, not knowing what the hotel’s gonna smell like, and different pillows, and all of that kind of stuff.

But also, I mean, what would normally be called breaks from routine, but I’m not sure that’s what bothers me so much. It’s more like not being able to do my stuff that I love to do every day. You know- Mm … my… I’m not sure that a break from my work seems all that appealing to [00:16:00] me. I- Yeah … yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: Well, then again, I say that, but I, I, I, I’m very good at doing nothing if by doing nothing we, we include video games and s- and scrolling, and just kind of lying down and sleeping.

I mean, I, I, I sort of- 

Katherine May: Sleeping’s good … 

Pierre Novellie: yeah, reading, but there’s, there’s always has to be something intense going on to, to distract my brain. It’s like a constantly chewing mouth. It, it just needs either food or gum, but it needs something. 

Katherine May: Yeah, no, I do know what you mean. I mean, I think boredom is one of our defining experiences actually.

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Constant- Yeah … roaming boredom unless I’m completely occupied by something, and the need to be, like, deep into something for a lot of my day if I’m gonna be awake. I would like to be asleep quite a lot as well, frankly. Yes. 

Pierre Novellie: But if awake, then yeah, some- something has to be sort of happening ideally.

Katherine May: Yeah. And also those, those deep interests too, that, I mean, I- you are a [00:17:00] massive history buff, nerd, geek. I don’t know what you’d… Enthusiast? Probably 

Pierre Novellie: nerd, yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. I’m not sure what the lines are between those things, 

Pierre Novellie: but- I think there is a th- a dork is someone who is, is unpopular and socially awkward as a nerd but doesn’t have the accompanying academic excellence.

Katherine May: Interesting. And dork initially was slang for vagina. 

Pierre Novellie: Ah. 

Katherine May: Mm. Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: I think everything starts that way. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that is the key insult we like to throw around. Um, I, you know, I just wondered how much that is a need in your everyday life though, this kind of contact with the sort of historical data and detail.

Yes. But yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: Absolutely, yeah. I, I, I can’t really enjoy … I, I, I have to know about the history of if somewhere I visit or go, yeah. It can’t be contextless. I, I, I, I cannot believe people who are willing to go … I, I’ve heard of people who go on holiday to the same town every year for 10 years, and they don’t know anything about [00:18:00] the, about the town.

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: The, the history of the town, and I c- I can’t It’s almost unforgivable, really 

Katherine May: Well, it kind of is, isn’t it? Because visiting a place without actually engaging with it is, it’s not actually visiting a place. It’s just going somewhere where presumably the booze is cheaper really. Yeah. That’s not enough.

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. You could argue that if all there is left in this historic town, say, is cheap booze, then they’re engaging with the place as it stands. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: And what you’re doing 

Katherine May: is- Yeah, what 

Pierre Novellie: I was thinking about … what you’re doing is engaging with a series of elaborate ghosts that aren’t really relevant to the inhabitants anymore, so.

Katherine May: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it, it does, it’s another kind of way of thinking about seeing the world in different layers, I guess- Mm … that, you know, for me, I’m always trying to… I, I’ve got this deep need to connect with everything, like to really, really connect with it. I don’t, [00:19:00] I don’t like skimming over the surface of everything.

I’m not particularly a history buff, but I would definitely always take an interest in the history of anywhere I’m going and want to understand, yeah, just what- Yeah … I want to understand why, why this now is there. Um, and I get quite confounded. I mean, like when I first visited Cairo, I couldn’t read the history of it in a way that I could a European city, for example.

You know, like I, I couldn’t tell what was old and what was new in the same way, and I felt really… I mean, obviously I understood the pyramids were old, but like the, the sort of buildings in the city center I would, I’d be like, “Is that, is that old?” Or, you know, what- 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah … 

Katherine May: what is this? And I felt really lost in that place because of, because I couldn’t read it in the same way.

Uh, 

Pierre Novellie: and it’s a challenge with, um, with… I, I, I recently went to Japan, and every building there just burned down. Every 100 years everything burns down- Yeah, of course … and gets rebuilt. 

Katherine May: Yeah, yeah. So 

Pierre Novellie: are, are you in the medieval [00:20:00] castle or, or are you not? You know, it’s a sort of Th- Theseus’s ship- 

Katherine May: Yes … 

Pierre Novellie: uh, uh, situation

Katherine May: that gets renewed. Well, of course they, you know, the earthquaky-ness of Japan is, um, is kind of a l- an endless revolution. But there’s also that sense of deep, deep continuity that they have in a way that I think we don’t understand how to do. You know, like shopping centers built around a temple or- Mm … you know, like the new and the old sit very comfortably together in a way that would make English culture feel very, very uncomfortable.

Like it’s either heritage or it’s new for us. But the squishing together of everything in a very kind of easy way really I found very astonishing in Japan. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. It is r- side by side, whereas w- our reaction, if you saw a kind of amazing medieval church with a bunch of vape shops next to it, you’d go, “Oh, no.”

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: As opposed to- 

Katherine May: Yeah, horrifying … 

Pierre Novellie: I don’t know. Maybe how do they do it? 

Katherine May: I [00:21:00] mean, you know, I live very near Canterbury, and it’s maybe not that far away from that. Yeah. I mean, there are now, you know, the cathedral, the cathedral prin- precinct or the area around it, the butter market, is full of like weird touristy tat shops.

So I guess, I guess we kind of do do it, and maybe, maybe that’s a false impression I have. But, but they’re in very old-looking buildings still. It’s a vape shop, but it’s in like a nice Tudor building, so that’s- 

Pierre Novellie: Oh, man. So, so strange. 

Katherine May: Um, I wonder, before we, you know, really get going, I wanted to talk a bit about your book, because I think it’s gonna be of interest to loads of people who listen.

And, like, one of the things I asked you when we bumped into each other last week was what it had been like writing a book about being autistic more recently- Mm … because I, you know, when mine came out, it was, it was really difficult, and I’m only 10 years before you. Um, but I found that I had met [00:22:00] with a baffled, a mostly baffled audience.

I mean, obviously, like the autistic community were really interested in the book. But the public at large was quite- I mean, it felt like affronted by the idea that I might be a, you know, a person in front of them speaking to them, and that they f- they found kind of, uh, hopefully, like, intelligent and interesting, and also be claiming this label.

There was a lot of very sort of disgruntled questioning about it, and also some really- Yeah … horrible questioning. I just wondered, I wondered whether time has changed… times have changed. 

Pierre Novellie: Oh, it’s definitely different. I mean, I had much, much less of that. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: It’s sort of filtering through generally, but I, I, I think the most disruptive thing that’s happened to the public understanding is, is the loss of the term Asperger’s.

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: People were across what Asperger’s was. They, they understood it. They, they… Th- the… [00:23:00] You could, you could tap a guy on a shoulder in a pub and, and say, “Oi, have you heard of this thing?” And he’d go, “Yeah, k- I think so, yeah.” 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: And that… The trouble is that the people in charge of this research, of this renaming stuff, it’s not that they’re incorrect.

They’re absolutely right that it is an autistic spectrum- 

Katherine May: Mm … 

Pierre Novellie: and there is a wide spectrum. Of course that’s correct, but these… this is where their input should end. They are not marketers. They are not public communication specialists. And unfortunately, all of us mere mortals are downstream of the research findings of these people.

Mm. And they, they need to unfo- I, I know it’s not their job, but someone at some point in this information chain needs to have a think about how it’s going to be explained to the general public. And if you do abolish something like Asperger’s, which I know there’s the levels. I’m, I’m, you know, uh, ASD level one or ASC- Mm

as some people are saying now. [00:24:00] It’s changing again. 

Katherine May: Yep. 

Pierre Novellie: But the people, no one’s talking about the levels to the public. No one’s going to The Telegraph and saying, “Can you at least put something about the levels in?” No one’s going to the Daily Mail or, or, or Mumsnet or wherever people get their information and saying, “No, no, there’s levels.”

Katherine May: I think for me, yes, you’re right, nobody’s explaining it to people, but in fact they are talking about it and, and we’ve, we’ve somehow got into this place where this kind of change can be politicized before it’s explained. I think that’s- Yeah … that’s the thing, and so it’s another instance of like the language has changed and how am I supposed to cope?

And it, it’s fascinating to me that that is coming from the people who are most objecting to people labeling themselves as autistic and, and yet- Yeah … it is actually a kind of common experience of rigidity around language and finding it really hard to change. And, you know, it’s a route through which you could understand what life’s like for us a little bit.

When you come across a language change that is, that feels affronting to you, [00:25:00] like someone’s changed my world, and actually it wasn’t even that relevant to me, but I feel upset by this because my brain cannot make this acrobatic leap from saying Asperger’s to saying autistic or, or whatever that change is.

It seems to me that that’s like actually a bit we have in common because we find those changes quite hard. And that’s one of the things we’re complaining about, like those. But it’s, but it is overcomeable and, uh, and you have to be willing to make a few mistakes along the way. 

Pierre Novellie: What I’ve found is that with, particularly if, if I come out on stage and I see a, a sea of gray hair I know that I’m gonna have to- You’re a little more nervous about this

explain that ASD1 is Asperger’s. But I have found, to be fair, that once I explain that, I see people going, “Oh.” I see them suddenly realizing the last three years of Telegraph articles that have made them annoyed are actually fine. 

Katherine May: Mm. Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: But no one is telling them, and we’ve had 13 years. It’s not even new, this change, and it still hasn’t filtered through- Yeah

’cause no one involved in that change [00:26:00] bothered to think about the second order effects in people’s actual social lives. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: And you can’t go around renaming conditions willy-nilly without thinking about how this is gonna be filtered through schools, unis, down to a GP level. 

Katherine May: I’m reliably informed now that neurodivergence is talked about right through medical training now.

It’s really- Mm. That’s good … in, in very current medical training. And I’ve got a good friend who trains GPs in the sort of language and experience of neurodivergent people. So stuff is happening, but it, you know, obviously there’s a, there’s a huge kind of bulk of people who’ve been through their entire medical careers not having to know about this stuff and, and still not.

Listen, when they start The Rest Is Neurodivergence, you and I are a dream team. 

Pierre Novellie: We can get onto Lineker about that. 

Katherine May: Yeah, yeah. We’ll have a word with Lineker. Yeah. It’s time. Like they’ve done the rest is everything else, I think it’s time for the rest is neurodivergence. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah, I think so. 

Katherine May: So is there anything that you’re [00:27:00] in need of getting away from at the moment?

Or, or getting away to do? Is there a, is there a need behind this retreat? 

Pierre Novellie: Um, I’m definitely… I can feel I’m burning out. I, I’m, I’m- Mm … sort of, I’m, I’m doing that thing that I think a lot of autistic people do where I’m, I’m playing chicken with the, the bottom of the ramp. And as long as I just- Yeah … or like as long as I pull the fighter jet up at the last minute, I can…

I’ll be f- I’ll be okay. But we’ll, we’ll see. 

Katherine May: Brave man. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Have you, have you burnt out many times before? 

Pierre Novellie: Without realizing, yeah, I, uh, mainly without realizing. And, um- I think, I think I’ll be able to avoid it. I’ve, I, I, I was touring and, and getting married and going on honeymoon until July, and I’m writing my entire Fringe show in one month in July based on, uh, some notes.

So that- 

Katherine May: Oh … 

Pierre Novellie: that’s not- That’s tight … 

Katherine May: that’s 

Pierre Novellie: not normally how you’re supposed to do it. And, um- 

Katherine May: Yeah, okay … I’ve 

Pierre Novellie: got a big writing project that I can’t s- say too much about, but that’s also needs to be done, and [00:28:00] four half hours of standup for Radio 4 that will be coming out in January. So the sequel, the sequel to the first series- Ooh

that, that you, 

Katherine May: uh- Which was wonderful. We’ll link to that actually in the show notes. Thank you very much. It’s fantastically good. Yeah. Yeah, love it. 

Pierre Novellie: Um, so there, there’s another one of those, another four half hours have to be, have to be birthed, um- … by December. So i- there’s a lot, uh- Wowee … 

Katherine May: there’s 

Pierre Novellie: a lot to do.

Um, so I, I- 

Katherine May: Yeah, there is … 

Pierre Novellie: I would like to imagine this happening at almost at the end of all that. ‘Cause until all the work is done- Hmm. Yeah … you can’t actually relax. It’s totally. There’s no point in having a break in the middle I find, ’cause I’d rather use that time to just speed this whole thing along.

Katherine May: You’ve, you’ve got to have, like, the continuity as well- Mm-hmm … haven’t you? Like, once you’re, once it’s all rolling around your brain, you kind of have to keep it there. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Uh, as otherwise it sort of dissipates and, you know- Yeah … that’s not useful. 

Pierre Novellie: And when I do the Edinburgh Fringe, it’s 26 to 28 days of performing in a row.

Um- Wow, that’s a lot … and for years now I haven’t taken a day off. They offer performers a, a, a day off in the middle, and I find it [00:29:00] just makes- Oh … life even harder, the, the day off. It’s, it’s not enough. Yeah. One, one day where you, where you sleep in, you feel bad, you miss out on a, on a day’s ticket sales, and then you do, go back the next day and no, useless.

If, if it was four days, fine. If it was a- Yeah … a week, absolutely. But one day, n- no. 

Katherine May: But one’s not enough. No. 

Pierre Novellie: I’d rather stay focused. 

Katherine May: It’s like doing panto or something- Yes. Yeah … isn’t it, that? You know, that, yeah. That’s, that’s a huge, huge effort. It’s a 

Pierre Novellie: long run. Yeah. 

Katherine May: Oof. I’m gonna come and see you in the middle 

Pierre Novellie: of it.

Uh, 

Katherine May: well. We’ll see how you’re doing. Well, 

Pierre Novellie: by the time this comes out, we’ll have known. The, the scores will be on the doors. We’ll see. 

Katherine May: Um, I’m inviting you into my clearing. Yes. I’ve got a clearing in the woods, and in it you’re gonna find your, the place where you could truly, finally rest your busy brain, but, uh, but only in your way.

So it doesn’t have to mean stopping being you. Where would you take us [00:30:00] that would be your place? 

Pierre Novellie: Mm. It’s gotta be somewhere very remote. If, if I’m, if I’m accessible, then I’ll, I will participate. I, I’m not very good at saying no. 

Katherine May: Right. 

Pierre Novellie: So one of the reasons that you bumped, and I bumped into each other in that cafe-

is that me and, and a friend were doing a writer’s retreat. We were trying to go to, uh, to somewhere where, where people couldn’t say, “Oh, if you’re around, you know, do this,” or, “Oh, are you free for this?” 

Katherine May: So, I’m so sorry about that. 

Pierre Novellie: No, no, no. Hi. We were in the cafe. We weren’t working. We were- Yeah … it was break time.

Um, no, no, no. But, but if I was in town, I, I would find it hard to say no. And if I’m in the house- Mm … I would find it hard to not stop my work and go and do the, the, the- Yeah … the non-emergency DIY that has 

Katherine May: been bugging me. There’s always some non-emergency DIY to do. I’ve, it’s a very hard thing about, um, about being a writer, I think, that suddenly everything needs cleaning the second 

Pierre Novellie: that 

Katherine May: you- Mm-hmm

you need to do something. Yeah. [00:31:00] So, so where would this be? What, what kind of remote do you enjoy? 

Pierre Novellie: Um, like Orkney Islands remote. My gran was from the Orkneys, so My distant cousins, I don’t really know what, uh, relatives. I, I, I can never figure out second cousin, first, 10 times removed. 

Katherine May: Right. 

Pierre Novellie: Anyway, my, my, my mystery cousins, they still have their farm there, my grandmother’s- 

Katherine May: Oh, wow

Pierre Novellie: other descendants. It’s the same family, same surname I’ve, I’ve been told. So they’re still there. 

Katherine May: And is that where your, is that where your surname’s from? I assumed it was French. 

Pierre Novellie: No, my surname’s Italian. This is my mom’s side. Ah. Um, so- 

Katherine May: It’s a very showbiz surname, I think. 

Pierre Novellie: You’d think- Somehow … you’d, I think it’s a showbiz surname in a kind of Cirque du Soleil cabaret way.

Yeah. I don’t think it’s a, it’s not a 

Katherine May: UK- 

Pierre Novellie: Glittery jacket. Yeah, exactly. Glittery 

Katherine May: jacket. Maybe a little top hat. 

Pierre Novellie: Something like that. Yeah, sinister kind of sideshows. 

Katherine May: Nice. 

Pierre Novellie: Um, I think. Okay for that. It, it’s not a showbiz name in the UK. It’s, it’s ungoogleable, and it- Okay … implies something that, um, d- isn’t, isn’t delivered.

If you have a name like mine and you get booked [00:32:00] onto or, or, or considered rather for a panel show, I think they would ideally want you to be a kind of louche Frenchman, and when you’re not, it just, it’s just annoying for the viewer. It, it makes you hard to explain. You need a, you need a pigeonhole. 

Katherine May: Yes.

What is your pigeonhole then? What do you do? Louche autistic instead? 

Pierre Novellie: No. Yeah, that’s the closest we can get. Nerd brackets autism, autism brackets nerd maybe. But yeah, some, some remote stone building- 

Katherine May: Mm … 

Pierre Novellie: by the 

Katherine May: sea. Like a little kind of crofter’s cottage or… 

Pierre Novellie: Yes, although one of my other, uh, uh, uh, answers to your questions would m- mean it might have to be a slightly bigger than a crofter’s cottage, but we’ll- 

Katherine May: Okay.

But- 

Pierre Novellie: But nominally, the, the, the, the feeling of the building would be like a, a- Mm … 

Katherine May: a 

Pierre Novellie: beachcomber’s bothy- 

Katherine May: Lovely … 

Pierre Novellie: or something. 

Katherine May: Oh, a bothy would be really nice. 

Pierre Novellie: Mm. 

Katherine May: And also some really, I mean, fantastically good history in Orkney. 

Pierre Novellie: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of shell middens- 

Katherine May: Ah … 

Pierre Novellie: for any Neolithic fans out there.

Katherine May: So what about if I give you a kind of medieval longhouse? 

Pierre Novellie: [00:33:00] Yeah, or one of those incredibly, um, austere Whenever you see Scottish castles, it tends to just be like a huge cube- Mm … with, like, no extra bits. 

Katherine May: Have you ever- Maybe one of 

Pierre Novellie: those … 

Katherine May: do, do you know about the Landmark Trust? ‘Cause you can stay in one of those cube castles w- you can rent it through them.

They have a good couple of kind of- 

Pierre Novellie: Ah … 

Katherine May: really, like, terrifying looking Scottish castles that you can- You could go there … you can live in. Yeah. You can go and live in them for a week. I think, I- Yeah … they let me stay in one of their properties, um, earlier in the year, but I have a son who doesn’t like old buildings, and so we didn’t- Oh

it, we, we weren’t allowed a, a scary castle, unfortunately. Oh, yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: But- So for, for, doesn’t like old buildings for ghost reasons or for structural reasons? 

Katherine May: Structural. Mm. He’s convinced they’re gonna fall down. But I think the fact that they’re old is evidence that they’re gonna stay up. For me- Well, that, that’s the good logic

Pierre Novellie: that would be my approach. If it, it was gonna fall down, it would’ve fallen down. 

Katherine May: It’s had a while to fall down. It’s proven- Mm … that it’s gonna [00:34:00] stay standing. I, is my personal feeling, but he- 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah … 

Katherine May: vehemently disagrees about that, so. So no scary castles, but yeah, you could go and stay in one of those. Anyway, that’s, that’s by the by.

All right. So we’re, we’re on Orkney. 

Pierre Novellie: Mm. 

Katherine May: What are you, what are you gonna do with your days there? So if you’re not able to- Do your, do your daily stuff and get distracted and say hello to people. What are you gonna- Yeah … spend your day doing? 

Pierre Novellie: Um, the way I turn my brain off in normal life is, uh, generally gaming.

Katherine May: Mm. But, um- Well, we can give you, like, a wicked broadband link. Sure. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah, yeah. High-speed internet maybe. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: Um, the trouble is even when I was trying to think of my answers to these questions, I’m still thinking of, like, way- ways where, ways I could live that would mean it was easy to do writing. I’m still thinking about work all the time, even in these questions.

Um- 

Katherine May: I think that’s okay, though. I mean, I, I, I was just saying in a previous episode [00:35:00] actually, like, I never stop writing, and in fact, when I go away I just switch projects. I just do … I just write something else to normal. 

Pierre Novellie: I know what you mean about the switching thing. The sort of holiday, holiday project, fun holiday project that’s not the main project.

I would feel gaming, reading … I, I’m, I’m eternally promising that I’ll, I’ll have time to go back to doing drawing and painting and stuff, which I used to do. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: Um, but I haven’t done for years properly. Um, but I used to be good. I … When I try and doodle something now, I can feel that my hands aren’t as good.

Katherine May: Right. 

Pierre Novellie: I can feel the loss of skill. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: Um, but l- I suppose at least if you’re aware of it, you can train your hand again to, to have that control. 

Katherine May: It’s muscle m- … Yeah, you probably … I, I’m similar to you, actually. I used to be quite a, a keen sketcher, and I, I can still … Like, when my son was little, I used to draw things for him, and I still had it a bit- Mm

but I’ve lost that level of control certainly. [00:36:00] I’d love to get that back. 

Pierre Novellie: It’s, it’s like the gym, I think. It’s, it’s like a lot of creative stuff. It’s just boring repetition, and- Mm … I loved drawing a lot when I was a teenager, and, uh, I just got obsessive about being able to draw hands, and not necessarily- Oh, wow

realistically, but just being able to get them even in a cartoon, like a silly comic book strip- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: holding an object correctly or pointing or- 

Katherine May: Mm … 

Pierre Novellie: doing these gestures. And so I would just fill … I, I would nick textbooks from You know, when the teacher has blank ones Oh, yeah. 

Katherine May: Which they, they always have.

But also you get those textbooks that are full of, like, hand positions, don’t you? Those sort of- 

Pierre Novellie: Oh, those. Yeah I quite like those … No, I, when I was a bit older, I used those. But I’d just nick blank exercise books and just filled them with hand doodles. It must have looked like a serial killer’s- … book. Just 

Katherine May: hundreds of- Dismembered hands

Pierre Novellie: thousands of hands, yeah. 

Katherine May: I would find that quite a relaxing activity, to have a week to draw hands. I would- That’s something I could genuinely quite enjoy. It would be 

Pierre Novellie: nice. 

Katherine May: The, [00:37:00] 

Pierre Novellie: the thing I’m jealous of that people who go to art school do complain about, and I sort of think I would also complain, but it’s nice to complain about h- having to do something, is the drapery is the other thing that people complain about.

Yes, 

Katherine May: of course. 

Pierre Novellie: Hanging robes off bodies and things, which obviously is r- big time Renaissance art stuff. 

Katherine May: I think that sounds lovely. Yeah. I’ve often thought that I would love to… I wouldn’t love to go to art college because I, I want to be a writer, so I’d, I’d just spend the whole time skiving off and writing like I have with every other thing I’ve tried to do.

But I love the idea of that, that deep immersion in the nitty-gritty of craft. And the- Yeah … and they, they kind of break you a bit as well, I think, don’t they? They make you do stuff that you can’t do so that you get frustrated and, and bang your head up against what you, where your limitations are. Yes. But I think, God, that must be so good for the soul.

Definitely. It’s a bit like the army, but for soft people. [00:38:00] 

Pierre Novellie: I, I, I think that’s right. And I think, um, I find it increasingly true that all these things, when they’re good or fun or deep or interesting, a- are as a result of a kind of suffering. Not, not, not an immoral suffering, but a, a, a, a, like you say, r- they break you down or the repetition or- 

Katherine May: Mm

Pierre Novellie: stretching, stretching, stretching and I, I, I just think that’s how you, you crack through these, these walls. Almost like you hear marathon runners talking about breaking through a wall. I think it’s true with drawing and with standup and writing and- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: all these things. So, so few people just show up with a savant level talent.

There’s no point planning to be like that if you’re not like that. Right. The rest, everyone else just has to sit and chew. 

Katherine May: I, 

Pierre Novellie: yeah. Chew through everything like a- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: a beaver. 

Katherine May: I find it… I still find it’s true for every book I write that I have to get to the point when I feel like my head has broken and I, I have to get to the point like, “I can’t do this.”

I, [00:39:00] I- Yeah … my husband is now, like, really familiar with me c- crawling out to kitchen going, “I can’t write anymore. I don’t know. However the way I go, why did I…” And that’s, you know, and he’s, and he’s like now he’s like, “Yeah, that, this is, this is the good moment. Well done.” Shut up. Well, I’m really curious actually about, about the process of becoming a comedian because- Mm

you must… I mean, again, autistic people, we’re bullied a lot, we’re rejected a lot, and yet comedians have to go on stage and fail. Like, that is part of the learning. Or maybe you, maybe you never did, maybe you never failed, but- 

Pierre Novellie: Oh, you fail all the time. Yeah. It’s sort of exposure therapy for rejection sensitivity, to be honest.

It, um, it’s, it’s quite useful in that way, um, because it, it simply must happen. And you try to avoid it. You’re, you’re trying to think of things you think are funny, but After the 100th time that a group of strangers has informed you that actually [00:40:00] they don’t agree with you on anything that you think is funny or good or interesting, and also they don’t like your face or the way you sound, then it’s actually just a boring, you know…

It goes from horrifying to boring to actively funny while it’s happening, and that’s when y- you’re a professional. And while you’re dying on stage, you’re thinking, “I can’t wait to text so-and-so about this. This is a nightmare.” “This is so bad.” But 

Katherine May: it, it’s really easy to say that now because you’ve succeeded, and there are loads of people who love your work now.

How do you get through the time when nobody loves your work? Presumably a- enough people do maybe that, to keep you going, or do you just keep plowing on through? 

Pierre Novellie: You need to be a bit of a fatalist. So o- one of the things that is definitely true about comedy is that you can’t– They say you can’t choose your clown.

You can’t choose. Mm-hmm. John Cleese can only be funny the way John Cleese is funny. 

Katherine May: Right. 

Pierre Novellie: He’s tall, and, and he’s, he’s haughty, [00:41:00] and he’s tense, and he’s stressed, and he’s angry. John Cleese 

Katherine May: can’t really- I identify as John Cleese now. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. Yeah. But you can’t real- he can’t choose to be funny the way Rowan Atkinson is funny.

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: Say, just to give two very famous examples, and nor can Rowan Atkinson… I mean, he can perform as, as, as Blackadder and get a bit close to the Cleese thing, but Cleese can’t do, say, Mr. Bean or… You just are funny the way you are, and, and it’s to do with all kinds of things that are out of your control, your accent, your height, your- Yeah

your, your vocabulary. 

Katherine May: Your whole physicality. 

Pierre Novellie: Your whole physicality. Mm. The things you care about, the clothes you wear. You’re a character. Everyone is a character. And, and, and once you accept that you, uh, aren’t really in 100% control of that. I can’t perform as a short person. I can’t do that. You 

Katherine May: could sit down.

I don’t know. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. Shoes on knees. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: But- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: you accept, [00:42:00] you’re, you’re, if you’re doing stand-up, I mean. If you’re doing character work, obviously a character is fictional. Sure. But if you’re doing stand-up, you’re you and that’s it. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: Tough luck. And one of the things you learn is what people think of you, uh, uh, upon initially encountering you.

The second you walk out onto the stage, they’re thinking, “Oh, here comes blank.” 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: And once you figure out what blank is, what most people think you are, you can either confirm it and, and relish that, or you can play with it and subvert it and be, “Actually, I’m not like that.” 

Katherine May: Hmm. 

Pierre Novellie: So it’s either really fun to see someone come out who looks really thuggish and frightening, and they are thuggish and frightening, but it’s quite thrilling to hear from a, a terrifying thug.

Or they come out and they look thuggish and frightening, but they’re a delicate poet with all sorts of very- 

Katherine May: Right … 

Pierre Novellie: courtly almost banter. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: Uh, uh, with lots of sophisticated words. You, you, so you subvert or confirm, subvert or confirm. And frankly, the other thing is there’s no consequences to dying on stage.

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: You just feel sad. 

Katherine May: That’s the truth of it, isn’t it? [00:43:00] Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: No, they can’t break your legs, they can’t stop you from doing it again. Mm. And they don’t remember you. They don’t care. 

Katherine May: Yeah. It’s just 

Pierre Novellie: a- They just hate you for about five minutes … 

Katherine May: and then they move on. Yeah, they hate the next guy. So, no, no, I really, I really, I, ’cause I- Yeah

um, after university, I didn’t know what to do with myself and became a teacher, and I spent years a- like, I only was a teacher for three years and then I moved on to working in education in different ways, but I spent those first three years absolutely terrified of, like, losing control of a classroom and, you know, I’d have, like, these anxiety dreams about it and all this kind of thing.

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. And 

Katherine May: it was only after I’d left teaching and I was working for an arts organization, and I went into a school one day and to work with a teacher in his classroom, and my anxiety dream came true, but it, it, I was watching it happen to him, and apparently this was what his life was like every single day of the week for his entire career.

He had minus levels of authority in the room, [00:44:00] and he just stood at the front of the room, and as soon as he got there, the kids started throwing things. And I was standing next to him, and there was, like, balls of paper coming at us and, like, rulers and- Yeah … pencil sharpeners. And then one kid opened the window and climbed out of it and inched along the, uh, windowsill and came in through another window, and it was, it was like a zoo.

And I just stood there, and it was the b- it was amazing. Like, I felt like I’d transcended my body because- … because this was it. This was the thing that I’d been really scared of happening, and it was just so funny. It was- 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah … 

Katherine May: it was so, so funny. And all I kind of… All I did was sort of admire the kids who, who were just, like- Making the world laugh.

I mean, they were being kind of brilliant in a way because this guy was giving them nothing, and [00:45:00] I was like, “Wow, the worst has happened.” 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. 

Katherine May: And, and I, I’m just gonna leave, you know, I’m gonna go on and live another day. I, I completely get it. 

Pierre Novellie: Well, it’s even easier with stand-up because I can say whatever I want to a disruptive audience member.

Katherine May: Right. 

Pierre Novellie: I can say whatever I want. Yeah, 

Katherine May: you definitely- There’s no- … can’t do that in teaching. 

Pierre Novellie: No, there’s no… There’s stand-up. There’s no Ofsted. 

Katherine May: No. If, 

Pierre Novellie: if, if shit gets real, there’s a bouncer. Yeah. Uh, if they can try and fight you in the parking lot. That happened to a friend of mine. But, you 

Katherine May: know- You’re probably 

Pierre Novellie: bigger 

Katherine May: than them, though

Pierre Novellie: that helps. That helps. Yeah. But, you know, there’s a, there’s a green, there’s a, there’s a stage door for a reason. Um- Yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah … you 

Pierre Novellie: can just get away. It’s, it’s not as frightening as people think once you budget for a certain amount of ego death. 

Katherine May: Mm. Comedy is a psychedelic experience. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah, forced over and over again-

over about 10 years from the general public’s rage and ambivalence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:46:00] 

Katherine May: yeah. Wonderful. Well, I mean, uh, you’re not gonna have to do that for a while while you’re taking a break, but you’re gonna play some computer games, draw some hands maybe- Draw 

Pierre Novellie: some hands, 

Katherine May: read some books … or some drapery.

Read some books. 

Pierre Novellie: My to, my to-read list is, like, 40 strong now. 

Katherine May: Ooh. 

Pierre Novellie: 50 books. 

Katherine May: What are you wanting to read next? 

Pierre Novellie: Oh, next, I mean, um, there’s a, a Portuguese author who passed away recently who people thought should’ve been a, a Nobel Prize winner who apparently his work is very well known in France and, and, and, and Spain and Germany- Yeah

but just he never… His Eng- It, it’s hard to get the works in English. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: I just saw him pop up, so I bought a few of his stuff, a few of his books. I, I, I’ve… There’s a bunch of stuff about, um, the Aztecs and the, and I, I need to read. There’s a bunch of stuff about the Mongols, like how Genghis Khan’s act- like, the how the Golden Horde actually ran trade- 

Katherine May: Right

Pierre Novellie: networks and things. There’s [00:47:00] Man, there, there’s a, there’s a, there’s books I want to read and there’s books I should read, and those are different lists. Want to read is about 50. Should read is, you know, I should probably go back- Oh … and reread everything from my degree. 

Katherine May: It’s, uh, yeah, properly this time.

Pierre Novellie: Exactly, yeah. I do feel that, yeah, yeah. 

Katherine May: I feel like that too. I felt like they made me read the books so quickly. There was, uh, you know, that I couldn’t possibly take them in. Like, there was a, there was a three-day period when I had to read the entirety of Das Kapital, and- … that was not long enough. It’s not long enough.

Pierre Novellie: No. It’s not. The, they have to accept that then no one’s really reading it. 

Katherine May: Yeah. It just, it didn’t make any sense to, to actually do that, but that’s, you know, that’s Cambridge for you, isn’t it? So you’re gonna read. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. 

Katherine May: Will you go out walking in the amazing Orcadian landscape? 

Pierre Novellie: Yes. I would like it to be, um- Cold.

I don’t want to- Hmm … I have no interest in midges or sweating particularly. No. And [00:48:00] I like cold weather, so- Yeah … big, uh, big yumps or as big as you can get on, on some of those islands. 

Katherine May: That sounds lovely. 

Pierre Novellie: Around on the, uh… They’re quite flat, though. There’s not, you’re not gonna get too much crazy vaulting cliff action, but, uh- 

Katherine May: Fine.

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. 

Katherine May: I would, I always like a hill to climb, personally. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah, it would be nice, actually. Maybe we can just imagine that there’s a hill. 

Katherine May: Yeah. All right. We’ll install a hill on Orkney for you. The, I’m sure the locals won’t mind at all. I mean, 

Pierre Novellie: we can stick a… We can just move the whole thing to the Isle of Skye.

It just needs to be somewhere desolate that’s, uh, near the Atlantic really. 

Katherine May: Interchangeable Hebridean Island or something. Hmm. Okay. Yeah, fair enough. All right. So what are you bringing with you? What do you pack for this kind of trip? Like, do you bring anything special from home, or are you like a… I, I listened to your comedy show on Radio 4, and I know your attitude to toiletries, and you just want the one budget bottle-

of shower gel for everything. Yeah, the, 

Pierre Novellie: the, the blue goo, yeah. I don’t need anything else. [00:49:00] One goop for every possible task is all I desire. Um 

Katherine May: It’s gotta co- you’ve gotta have, like, all the different bottles and jars. Come on, it’s fun. 

Pierre Novellie: It just stresses me out. It’s just like a, a test, you know, what goes on where.

Also, if I… I, I’ve tried moisturizing, and I, I just, I get acne within the hour. 

Katherine May: Oh. 

Pierre Novellie: It just doesn’t… It’s just immediate. It’s like saying, “I’d like spots, please,” again. 

Katherine May: Yeah. So you’re not, we’re not gonna be p-packing, like, you know, a lot of toiletries? 

Pierre Novellie: No. I, I, I… If, if I’m really gonna have a break, maybe I, it would be better to not have a gaming PC with me.

But then again, some games are very narrative now. 

Katherine May: Yeah, it doesn’t have to be improving. 

Pierre Novellie: No. 

Katherine May: It’s, it’s just gotta be fun. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. Well, then I’ll bring it then. I, uh- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: I’m always jealous. I do a gaming podcast with Glenn Moore and Sarah Keyworth, and, um, Glenn gets through over 100 games every year. 

Katherine May: What? 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah.

Katherine May: How… What? 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah. 

Katherine May: How, how much time does he devote to this? 

Pierre Novellie: He has a [00:50:00] Switch and a, and a, and a PlayStation Portal, and so he can do things that are not normally handheld through a handheld device. Right. And if you’re a comedian and you’re on the train all the time… 

Katherine May: Yeah, yeah. Okay. 

Pierre Novellie: Um, but he also, he’s mad.

Those are the two crucial ingredients- … technology and madness. And he’s always saying, uh, uh, he’s got all these games to hand. The, oh, a murder mystery that’s set in a remote Irish castle. Yeah, done. There’s an occult, uh, uh, story set in a th- He’s just… He’s like the librarian of games. He can just recommend you anything, so.

Katherine May: That’s k- that’s kind of amazing. Yeah. What would you bring? What, what game are you- I’m, 

Pierre Novellie: I’m 

Katherine May: a- You know, what would you find re-relaxing … I’m 

Pierre Novellie: a PC guy, so I, I would, I would try and bring, uh, maybe Baldur’s Gate 3, the sort of RPG game where- Yeah … it’s just infinite. It’s just huge. It takes however many hours to complete.

That would be nice to- … sink myself into. Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Uh, two 

Katherine May: I live with two big gaming enthusiasts, and, um, my husband at the beginning of the year built [00:51:00] himself a new gaming PC- Nice … which he really enjoyed. Like, he like built it all, and it’s all very neon inside. It’s got like a window on it.

He’s very proud. So when people drop round, he has to like take them upstairs to look at his computer for a little while. And after he’d completed that, he’s, he got restless, and so he’s now built himself a second mini one with a handle so he can carry it around. 

Pierre Novellie: That is very admirable. I’m very envious of that.

Katherine May: Next level. 

Pierre Novellie: Oh, wow. Ugh, that would be great. Or would it? It might ruin my life. Yeah. It’s hard to say, really. 

Katherine May: I suspect it’s gonna ruin every holiday we try and take for the next five years. 

Pierre Novellie: It depends how much you want to be left alone to do your own thing. Maybe it would be a great, uh- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: strategic distraction.

Um- 

Katherine May: After 27 years of marriage, there’s not m- that much left to say to each other, honestly. 

Pierre Novellie: You’ve done the full, uh, the f- a full Mandela, a full Mandela prison sentence Wow 

Katherine May: Yeah 

Pierre Novellie: Good for you 

Katherine May: Yeah. I now get to walk out of Robin Island- Yeah, yeah … and wave beatifically at the crowds. That’s it, yeah. Yeah.

Pierre Novellie: Wowee. I know. [00:52:00] Well done. 

Katherine May: I know. 

Pierre Novellie: That’s impressive, hey? 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: Um- 

Katherine May: I was a child bride.

I was, I was 21. 

Pierre Novellie: Wow! 

Katherine May: I left university and got married, uh, a few weeks later. Yeah. Uh, 

Pierre Novellie: were you deeply religious? 

Katherine May: No. God, no. That’s normally 

Pierre Novellie: the case- I just- … with you see a- 

Katherine May: We just thought it’d be a laugh. 

Pierre Novellie: Okay. 

Katherine May: I, I – Yeah, 

Pierre Novellie: fair 

Katherine May: enough … I’m sure we really took it very seriously. I think we just, you know, were fond of each other and thought it might be fun.

Pierre Novellie: I think that’s a good, a 

Katherine May: very good 

Pierre Novellie: set of reasons. Enough, 

Katherine May: is it? 

Pierre Novellie: Um, I’d bring, I’d bring hot sauce as well, just thinking about it. 

Katherine May: Oh, are you a, are you a very hot hot sauce person? Oh, uh, wait, that’s not a computer game. No, no, no. That’s genuine hot 

Pierre Novellie: sauce. That’s hot sauce. Yeah, yeah. I’d bring a, I’d bring a, a brace- Okay

of hot sauces because you’re not gonna be able to get them up there. 

Katherine May: Are you, um, like a, you know, the, the sort of nuclear grade ones- 

Pierre Novellie: Nuclear grade … or- But as the mood takes me, you want a, you want a wide range from, from Tabasco to- Okay … through green chili, through Chipotle, [00:53:00] through gochujang, through all…

You want all the, you want all the options there, depending on mood. 

Katherine May: You’ve got the options. Mm-hmm. We… I bought my son for his birthday a Hot Ones flight- Ooh … of sauces. Yeah, yeah, 

Pierre Novellie: yeah. 

Katherine May: You know, like the… Which for those people that don’t watch this on YouTube, it’s an amazing interview show, which I, I really do…

I really think that the guy that does it does a great interview. Yeah. But people are eating increasingly hot chicken wings with different hot sauces on. Yeah. And so by the end they’re kind of sweating and choking and it’s… I don’t know, there’s something really fun about it. But, um, yeah, the, in, within one of the, the kind of key pivotal sauce in that show is called Da Bomb, and we acquired a bottle of Da Bomb.

Pierre Novellie: Wow. 

Katherine May: I, I like hot food. I cannot tell you how unbearable that is. A tiny drip of it on food, and you think you’ve got away with it, and then after a minute it sets in- Mm … and it is [00:54:00] all-encompassing. It’s unbelievable. 

Pierre Novellie: It’s similar to stand-up in that, um, regardless of- … regardless of if it’s pleasant or not, you get addicted to the adrenaline and the fight or flight response generated by the stimulation.

Katherine May: Yeah. But also, e- every time someone comes into your house after that, you sort of offer them some of it in a, in a way. Like weird alcohol, you know? Yeah. You’re 

Pierre Novellie: like, “

Katherine May: I need you to try this.” And of course, they can’t resist trying it either because we, ’cause everyone wants to know what that sensation is. And- A 

Pierre Novellie: million Scovilles.

Katherine May: Yeah 

Pierre Novellie: Or whatever the… 

Katherine May: Oh, it’s like, I think it’s like 260,000 or something like that. That’s 

Pierre Novellie: ridiculous. It’s- Yeah. But the- 

Katherine May: It’s not okay … but there’s 

Pierre Novellie: a point with these sometimes where they’ll say, “Oh, this sauce is like this.” And I, I, I think in the world of hot sauce m- makers, artisans, this is a- … a point of contention.

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: Whether or not you just make a sauce and then add powdered spoons of capsicum powder. 

Katherine May: Uh. 

Pierre Novellie: Where you’re just going, “Yeah, I made a flavor and then I made it hurty.” Or if you- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: grew and, and bred [00:55:00] this special, you know, scorpion chili or whatever. Yeah. And you, you, you got the, the natural heat out of the seeds through good skillful manufacture.

Katherine May: All right, so you got your hot sauce, and yeah, so you’ve tailored this, but we always invite people to bring a work of art or culture to kind of meditate- Yeah … on. What are you bringing? What, what are you bringing that requires a bigger house? 

Pierre Novellie: Uh, The Night Watch by Rembrandt- 

Katherine May: Oh … 

Pierre Novellie: which is, you know, 24 meters by 24 whatever, whatever it is.

It’s hu- Yeah … huge. 

Katherine May: Can you describe it? 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah, so, uh, um- Size-wise, it’s the size of a barn door. I mean, it’s enormous. 

Katherine May: I’ve never seen it. Is it in Amsterdam? 

Pierre Novellie: Yes. They, they, it, it- 

Katherine May: Mm. … 

Pierre Novellie: its size was limited. They tr- actually, it used to be slightly wider. They trimmed the painting down the side so it could fit through the doors- Oh

uh, o- of the, uh, original, um, civic hall where it was exhibited. Rijks. 

Katherine May: Is it the Rijksmuseum? It’s at 

Pierre Novellie: the Rijksmuseum, yeah. So Rembrandt, [00:56:00] one of the w- many strange things about the Netherlands’ history is that all these guys were doing these paintings, these masters, and they weren’t doing them for what we would think of as the crowd who wants them.

They weren’t doing them for- Yeah … aristocrats. They weren’t doing them for royals. They were for other even lower middle class Dutch people. Mm. And if you go to the Rijksmuseum or any kind of old portrait gallery in the Netherlands, you’ll walk around and you’ll, you’ll see a picture of a guy covered in gold braid and big puffy sleeves and f- ostrich feathers and, and you’ll think, “Oh, he’s an aristocrat.”

And you’ll look and he- he’ll be, like, the harbor master of Jurgenbergen. And you just g- what? 

Katherine May: Is, is Jurgenbergen real? 

Pierre Novellie: No, 

Katherine May: no. That sounds like the kind of … 

Pierre Novellie: But it’s exactly the kind of place that the Netherlands is, is full of. 

Katherine May: Yes. 

Pierre Novellie: And you realize that- 

Katherine May: Wow … 

Pierre Novellie: this is a very flat society where it’s the origin of, of modern banking.

It’s the origin of the stock market- Mm … I think as well. [00:57:00] They had a rich middle class based on trading and commerce. Right. And so from, from the 1600s, 1500s onwards, their rich guys were s- you know- 

Katherine May: Just ord- quite 

Pierre Novellie: ordinary people … the Dutch equivalent of Alan Sugar, some beet Barrow boy who d- made good. So they don’t have- Yeah

this thing where you have to have a, a, a Norman name and a, and a, a title to make money, which was true in the UK till the 1700s. 

Katherine May: We- 

Pierre Novellie: Uh- 

Katherine May: We find it quite hard to fathom that, don’t we really? Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: So the reason I bring this up is because The Night Watch- Mm-hmm … it’s not actually originally called that. It’s nicknamed The Night Watch ’cause it looks like a group of soldiers about to go on a patrol through town at night.

It’s not actually at night. It’s in the day. The varnish went dark over time. It is- Oh, is that true? Yes, it’s in the day. It’s just that it’s, it’s these tall buildings in medieval Flemish towns, Dutch towns, so the- Right … so they, they’re in shadow, but the, the light that is coming in is very, very bright daylight.

Mm. There’s just not very much of it. And [00:58:00] every one of these Dutch cities- Yeah … had a, a, a, a militie, a, a, a militia kind of group- 

Katherine May: Mm … 

Pierre Novellie: of, um, sort of musket men, uh, whose job was to be a sort of nascent police force, but also mili- military force guarding the walls of the city and patrolling around and stopping trouble.

Katherine May: Mm. 

Pierre Novellie: And they were very heavily emphasizing marksmanship, so they would have shooting contests and things and do lots of training, and they’d have a mixture of muskets and spears and halberds. And a group of these guys commissioned Rembrandt for 80 guilders or whatever to do a massive team photo. 

Katherine May: Wow, of themselves basically.

Team 

Pierre Novellie: photo. 

Katherine May: Wow. 

Pierre Novellie: And- 

Katherine May: And it was designed for public display presumably, like in the town hall or- 

Pierre Novellie: Yes, I think initially it was… I, I don’t know if they expected it to be that big or there’s some funny story about them going, “What do we do with this?” You know? And it’s, it’s astonishing. If you look online, they went and they, they’ve, they’ve taken [00:59:00] sort of infinity HD 4K, 8K, 1000K whatever pictures of each little square of The Night Watch.

So you can go on and, and look at it like you’re looking at it and from an inch away, and you can see Rembrandt’s ability to Play with light. Like all the Dutch masters, it was all about light and dark and chiaroscuro- About light … and all that and- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: uh, um, and it’s, it’s an astounding, just zooming in on the lace or, or the shine on a particular pearl- 

Katherine May: Mm

Pierre Novellie: on someone’s doublet or, or it, it’s an astounding- Yeah … astounding, uh, uh, painting, and you can’t get bored looking at it ever. There’s just, uh, the mixture of thin oil- Imagine spending 

Katherine May: some serious time 

Pierre Novellie: with that … oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t want it to be at risk. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: So maybe, may- maybe a perfect replica- That’s okay.

We can … a magically perfect clone of it that I can- … I can dick around with guilt-free. 

Katherine May: I’m sure that can happen. Yeah. I think being able to spend extended time with su- with a work of art like that would be extraordinary. Yeah. [01:00:00] You just would roam over it for hours- I, I- … and, and really get to know it … I 

Pierre Novellie: gig in Amsterdam a, a, a, a couple of ti- once, once a year, say, on average, and I always try and go see it if I have time.

Mm. Uh, ’cause it is, it’s in the free bit. You can just go look at it, you know. Um, it’s just mad. I mean- Yeah … the suggestion of things with just i- i- light and, and shininess with a quite thick oil paint and then everything else done in quite thin layers of detail. And I- Mm … I, I, I can’t enjoy watching football the same way someone who’s played football can, ’cause I don’t know what’s good.

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. 

Pierre Novellie: But I’m a, I’m a just, just a sh- shit enough painter that I understand how good – 

Katherine May: You understand how hard it is. Yeah … 

Pierre Novellie: yeah, yeah. So it is- Yeah. Yeah … much more gobsmacking than if you’d never painted, I think. 

Katherine May: Mm, or inspiring. Okay, so you spent some time with your painting, but it’s time to come home.

Pierre Novellie: Okay. 

Katherine May: Um, how do you know when are you [01:01:00] ready to come back? It sounds like you’ll be ready to come back home quite quickly, actually. 

Pierre Novellie: I think so. It depends what I’m, what I’m up to. If all I’m doing is gaming and reading, I think once I complete a couple of big games and I finished reading a decent chunk of the reading list, it’s probably time to 

Katherine May: When you’ve, like, ma- made inroads into that, that great big teetering 

Pierre Novellie: pile of books.

Yeah. And the truth is, b- because I do have concerns, you know, in real life, if I, if I was a sort of, um- What are they called? Uh, a, a mendicant. Uh, I, I was a sort of traveling- … uh, uh, uh, monk begging for alms or something. Yeah. Then I could just stay in this paradise forever. But I’ve got things to do, unfortunately.

Yeah, well, yeah. So you can’t ever really be away for more than a, a week or two. 

Katherine May: But also, I- you’d find something you wanted to write. 

Pierre Novellie: Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. 

Katherine May: You would. 

Pierre Novellie: Exactly. 

Katherine May: You’d have stuff to do, and you’d be like, “No, I’ve had enough now. I’ve, I’ve, I need to go back and do that.” Yeah. Yeah. Is there one thing you’ll bring, bring back home with you as a souvenir?

Pierre Novellie: [01:02:00] Uh, ooh. 

Katherine May: Apart from the Rembrandt. Apart 

Pierre Novellie: from that. No, that would- You can’t have that. That makes sense. 

Katherine May: Can’t fit that in your house. 

Pierre Novellie: Uh, oh, I don’t know. What- whatever I’ve drawn. The Big Book of Hands. 

Katherine May: And it will become a publishing sensation- … The Big Book of Hands. Pierre Novellie’s Big Book of Hands. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah.

Katherine May: Future classic. 

Pierre Novellie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every hand. Yeah. The Dictionary of Hands. 

Katherine May: Pierre, thank you so much. 

Pierre Novellie: Thank you. 

Katherine May: Hey, welcome back. How did you enjoy that? I loved having that conversation. Um, it was just… I don’t know. It was just really fun and refreshing, and I honestly, I was left afterwards thinking that it would just be a great thing to have a podcast devoted to, um, like conversations, really, really long conversations with autistic people, neurodivergent people, various parts of their journeys, [01:03:00] just telling their life stories.

Like, really taking their time to say, “Well, yep, and this part of life was like this for me, and I did it like this, and this is what happened.” Like, it would be so useful and informative and comforting. Um, it is not a podcast that I personally want to do because I think what would be great is if the interviews were really, really long, you know, and that they were really sort of detailed and, um, I don’t have time to do anything else, ’cause I do, as you may have noticed, too many things already.

Um, but I would be an enthusiastic listener if anyone fancied doing that. Just putting it out there. Maybe I need to start my own production company like Gary Lineker so that I can commission other people to do these things. Uh, but yeah, I, I would love to listen to that because- Because it is hearing lots of different stories that really matters.

It’s not having one story or one account or one narrative. It’s like having [01:04:00] loads and loads and loads and loads that’s actually much more helpful. Um, so there was our little contribution. Um, but I hope you enjoyed it, and do, um, check out Pierre’s book, Why Can’t I Enjoy Things? Uh, the title of which made me immediately laugh because I have had to ask that question about myself as well.

Although, give me a jigsaw and I will truly enjoy myself, but friends, I was at a party on, uh, Saturday night held by a dear, dear friend, and I sat there looking into the void, you know? Oh, it was loud, and there were lots of people, and I just counted off the hours until I went home. The person concerned will not mind me saying this, ’cause she knows what an antisocial, terrible human being I am.

But oh, wow, I wish I could enjoy things more and so yeah, the title gripped me as much as anything else. But yeah, do check out, uh, Pierre’s work. He’s on tour [01:05:00] in the UK. Um, he is a host of various podcasts. He’s very, very into computer games, which, um, I recognize from other members of my family, although not myself.

Um and, uh, we will put all of his links in the show notes. Uh, right, well, I’m not saying I’m rushing off to finish my jigsaw, but there is a tiny element of that. Like I’m a bit kind of, yeah, I’m s- distracted now. I’m doing this lovely thing, but I do have to try not to do too much of it before my son gets another chance, ’cause he’s gonna be really annoyed with me.

Um, but there’s a compulsiveness to these things, isn’t there? There’s like a kind of real pull towards, I don’t know, rooting through all these lovely little shiny pieces and fitting them together and working out how everything is solved, because there’s so little in everyday life that can be solved, but jigsaws [01:06:00] can be solved as long as you haven’t lost any of the pieces, or actually in my case, as long as it isn’t too much of a hard jigsaw.

Because friends, I’ve given up as many jigsaws as I’ve solved. I, I’m not interested in this being a challenge, honestly. Enough things are challenging. I don’t want any more challenges. I want a delightful, easy thing that I can just do and switch off my busy, busy brain and let my hands do something instead So yeah, that’s, that’s exactly what I’m gonna carry on doing.

Listen, may you find your jigsaw equivalent this week to do and to find a little bit of soothing time. And until the next time we can get together, which will be in a week’s time with another excellent podcast guest, take lots of care, won’t you? And I will see you very soon. Bye.