Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello, Katherine here. You’ve got indoor Katherine again this week ’cause I am still recovering from COVID, but I’m feeling a lot better. Thank you everyone who got concerned. My goodness, such care, such care in this world. Um, I’ve been fine. I’ve just been a bit tired and extremely croaky. Um, but I have my voice back a bit now and a little of my energy back, although I’d have to say not loads and loads of it.

But there we go. Such is life. I always end up getting it too early for the vaccine every year. Uh, so I guess I vaccinate myself you could say. I don’t think I feel that pleased to do that, but there we have it. Ah. Anyway, I hope you’ve all been very well. I have been curling up in my chair, [00:01:00] watching lots of bits and pieces on the telly, uh, and reading some books, as well as, um, I watched some things on National Theatre at Home, which, um, is a fantastic service that lets you stream some of the National Theatre’s plays of the last few years.

So that’s been great. I’m feeling incredibly cultured after that. There are always some benefits of being a little bit ill rather than a lot ill. Um, and some of them involve catching up on all of the world of art and culture that you’ve otherwise missed. Anyway, I’m here to introduce you to this week’s podcast, um, with the wonderful Kathryn Nicolai, who you may not know her by name, but you probably have heard of her podcast called Nothing Much Happens, which is a podcast that’s designed to get you [00:02:00] into a dreamy and restful state before you go to bed.

Now… In fact, no, sorry, not before you go to bed, as you fall asleep, because this is a kind of incredibly functional podcast which lulls you into deep, deep, comfortable rest. And I first came across it, uh, about a year and a half ago, I’m late to every party, as we know, um, when I found myself, after a summer of intensely caring for my lovely husband, um, I was so wired, and I was finding it really, really hard to rest even though I was exhausted.

And I stumbled across Kathryn’s podcast and began to listen. And I just immediately was so soothed by it. This woman has the most relaxing voice, but also she creates this incredibly reassuring kind of framework in [00:03:00] which you rest. She talks you through it really carefully to tell you what you’re going to experience, which made me feel so safe and so cozy.

But most of all, I just loved her stories. Yes, nothing much happens, but at the same time, a lot of extremely cozy things happen in these stories. And there is this incredible knack in them of Conjuring pictures that just feel, mm, so calm and delicious. And I just, these amazing worlds. I really wanted to talk to Kathryn when I began the podcast, and it’s may have taken me a little while, but I’ve got there, and I was just thrilled by this conversation.

It’s just, I don’t know, so cool to hear her voice in real life. But I [00:04:00] was desperate to talk to her about this skill that she has of helping other people to rest. She is also the author of, uh, some novels now, some kind of offshoots of the podcast, including Stories from the Village of Nothing Much, and she has a podcast called First This, which are shorter bits of mindfulness meditation.

So I hope you will check her out if you don’t completely know and roam about in her world already. But most of all, I want to say that I loved her idea for rest because it’s a tiny bit naughty, and that thrilled me. This, we are not in the safe, calm world here, I don’t think, um, that she normally conjures, and instead we’re in like a slightly, mm, cheeky kind of rummaging kind of a mood.

We’ve had rummaging before as a means of rest, haven’t we? And I am more and more curious about that as a theme in this podcast. [00:05:00] Anyway, I don’t wanna give too much away. I’m gonna leave you in the safe hands of Kathryn to have a listen, and I will see you back after the interview. Bye. Katherine, hi.

Welcome to The Clearing. Thank you so much, Katherine. I am so excited to be here with you. It is amazing to have you. When we made our first list of, like, ideal guests, you were on it.

Kathryn Nicolai: Are you kidding? Oh my gosh. I feel like we have a lot of, like, overlap. Yeah. But obviously, like, your book came out the same year that my book came out, uh, my first book, and I remember thinking like, “Oh, this is like this beautiful memoir version of the thing that I’m trying to create.”

Like, I just felt- Mm … this immediate connection to you, and obviously your writing is gorgeous. Um, so, so I’m just, I’m just really excited to be here ’cause I’m a big fan.

Katherine May: Oh, thank you. Well, I in turn am a fan of your podcast, which I listen to-

Kathryn Nicolai: I’m so

Katherine May: glad … uh, ’cause I travel a [00:06:00] lot- Yeah … and actually, to have something that feels like a route to coziness and f- and familiarity, I think that…

Uh, well, for people that don’t listen to your podcast, let’s, let’s actually alert them because maybe they, or they don’t connect your name with-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: your podcast. So do you want to tell people what you do? Sure. ‘Cause it, uh, there’ll be a few people going, “Oh, it’s her.”

Kathryn Nicolai: It’s me, yeah. I tell bedtime stories, I used to say for grown-ups, then I realized a bunch of kids listen.

And so now I say bedtime stories for everyone. But basically, I, I’m sort of an architect of coziness. I create these little worlds that you can sort of step into, and I just tuck you in and make you feel all safe and held. And I rock you to sleep. Mm. And so I have three podcasts. My main one is the bedtime story, but I also do it in a daytime version if you’d like to just relax but not fall asleep, and, um, and a meditation-

podcast as well.

Katherine May: It’s lovely. And, and your, your most famous one is Nothing Much Happens, right? Yes. Which is-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, that’s the biggest one …

Katherine May: uh, [00:07:00] such a lovely title because for some people that would sound boring, but for those of us that need it, we’re like, “Great, where do I sign up?”

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. I know. I was thinking about that when I was kind of preparing to talk to you today, that, like, that’s quite revealing that, that I named, like, the ideal thing to me, which was nothing.

Nothing happening. You know, I was like, “Ah, that sounds like where I want to relax.”

Katherine May: Yeah,

Kathryn Nicolai: exactly.

Katherine May: But, uh, the skill of it lies in the, in the way that you create these worlds that are … They’re completely engrossing.

Kathryn Nicolai: Mm.

Katherine May: And yet also soothing and let- and they invite you to drift off. They’re about… I don’t know where…

I’m dying to understand the skill behind it because it is so cleverly put together. Like, how do you- Yeah … how did you realize you could do this? And- Yeah … where do you start when you create a new story?

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. I, I realized, you know, I’ve done [00:08:00] this since I was three years old. This is like- Yeah … my earliest memory is telling myself a story as a little kid to fall asleep.

Um, and I grew up in Flint, Michigan on the north end in the ’80s, and I think there was probably a part of my three-year-old brain that recognized that I wasn’t living in a very safe place- Right … and that needed to build one inside of myself in order to feel safe enough to fall asleep. Yeah. And, um, I was also just a kid with a huge imagination and just absolutely adoring of the concept of stories.

So I’ve always sort of had these little places that I built out in my head that I would go to to fall asleep. And because of that, I’ve always been able to sleep well my whole life. And, um, so then spending 20 years as a full-time yoga and meditation teacher, I spend a lot, spent a lot of time talking to people about their health and their anxiety and stress levels.

And, you know, I kept thinking, “I have, like, in my back pocket, I have this thing. And I don’t know if I could apply it to you, [00:09:00] but let’s give it a go.” Um, so I felt like the skill kind of grew organically out of, like, my own need. But then I, like, layered in all those years of experience in the yoga room to notice, like, how does my voice affect somebody?

Even word choice. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. What can I do to, like, lift the cognitive load and watch someone’s face soften when I pick this word over that word? Yeah. Um, so I feel like all of that came together to help me be the person who makes this show. Um, the way that it, I always start a story usually is just, just with some small moment.

I keep, like, a big list in my phone of some small moment that I bump into that sort of makes me stop and be amazed at something. And I really like just sort of- quotidian experiences, very- Yeah … everyday- Yeah … you know, simple moments. And it might just, you know, be… This I feel like is very American. I don’t know if anyone, if other-

people would relate to this. The other day I [00:10:00] opened up a jar of peanut butter. Oh, no. We love peanut butter here. And when you open a fresh jar of peanut butter, it’s level on the top, and when you get the first spoonful out- Mm … I don’t know, that is like a dopamine firework for me. And so those little moments that I can then build on top of and go, “I think this is gonna be relatable.

I think you’re gonna be able to like understand the sensory experience.” Mm. “And then I’m just gonna layer some more softness around it and make you feel really safe, and there you won’t have any choice, you’re gonna fall asleep.” Oh,

Katherine May: that’s lovely. And, and there is this, um, there’s this kind of patter you have at the beginning where you just, you just assure us it’s fine.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah.

Katherine May: It’s fine. It’s fine. I’m gonna get you to sleep. Everything’s okay. You’re okay.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah.

Katherine May: And it- there’s, I mean, there’s something very maternal about that, I think. Like, I’m, I’m a safe- I’m the safest person and I can hold you. Yeah. Yeah. And you don’t have to worry about anything. Like, it, it speaks to this deep yearning in us as adults to be held, I think.

Kathryn Nicolai: Absolutely. And you know, I feel like that was sort of the [00:11:00] first concept that I had was, you know, we recognize that this is so useful to kids, why is it not useful to adults? Why wouldn’t it be? Mm. Um, if anything, I need more assurance. Yeah. Because I’m more well-acquainted with the realities of the world than I was when I was seven years old.

I kind of need more assurance. And I think also spending all those years as a yoga teacher, I would see people come in with anxieties, and sometimes anxiety about yoga. It’s their first practice, or they’re not sure what they’re supposed to be doing. Mm. And I thought the very first thing I need to do is just let them know, “Hey, everything’s okay.”

Katherine May: Yeah. “

Kathryn Nicolai: Everything’s good. I, I got the room secured. I’m, I got your back. Nothing’s gonna happen. Um, I’m gonna walk you through this. You’re gonna feel good.” Mm. So I feel like that’s exactly the energy I would bring to the beginning of the yoga studio. Like, hey, you… Or I mean, the, the bedtime stories, I already got this all buttoned up.

You don’t have to do a thing but relax. So I love- Mm … to be that person for people who can just go, oh, especially if you carry a lot on your shoulders, if you’re a caregiver, if you’re a parent. Yeah. There’s a lot you’re keeping track of. And to be able to suddenly go, “Oh, I don’t have to keep track [00:12:00] of anything?”

Yeah. She’s even gonna tell the story twice?

Katherine May: I know. I really, it’s twice. That- Honestly, if anyone listening to this podcast hasn’t listened to yours, I- Thank you … I would just pause this for a while and go. I mean, you might not- … you know, stay awake through it, but.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes. Don’t do it while you’re driving.

Katherine May: Oh, no.

No. My goodness. Dangerous. Perhaps you need to do stay awake podcasts for people- Yeah … that are driving home late as well. Yeah. And, I mean, the other thing that I always notice is there’s a real seasonality. I mean, I think that’s part of the kind of-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: sensory conversation you’re having with people as well, but it- there’s a real seasonality to your stories and quite a lot of cats.

Kathryn Nicolai: Oh, a lot of cats. I, I mean, a lot of … There’s a chihuahua with me in the booth right now. Um, a very

Katherine May: quiet chihuahua.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. She’s very quiet, Harriet. Um, so yeah, there’s, uh, to me those are just, like, markers of feeling at home. And, you know, I feel like there’s sort of a moment every evening when all the members of your [00:13:00] household are within the household and the door is locked, where you kind of go, “Okay, we’re all- Yeah

where we’re supposed to be.” And for me, that always means animals, ’cause those are always part of my family. So yeah, there’s lots of- Yeah. … there’s lots of animals and, you know- … and cooking and eating and reading and sort of all those lovely things. And seasonality for sure, because I feel like there’s something about every season that I get quite excited about.

And I like- Mm … the shift. I wish there were eight seasons instead of four. Like, I like the changing. Yeah. So, um, I really like that. Well, you could go with the

Katherine May: Japanese. They have 72, I think.

Kathryn Nicolai: Oh my gosh

Katherine May: Mm.

Kathryn Nicolai: I need to look into that.

Katherine May: Yeah, yeah. They have very specific, like, each different blossom coming in, and- Oh

like, it’s really… So that, that could help you a lot. Gorgeous. Yeah. Beautiful. And is there… I’m always curious if behind the scenes there are stresses involved in your job. Do you find it soothing, or is it actually quite a heavy [00:14:00] load to carry to make other people relax?

Kathryn Nicolai: No, I… It, it is quite soothing. Like, I, the writing process is very enjoyable.

You know, like, I’m not at all a tortured artist. I’m a silly artist. I, I enjoy what I do so much. At the beginning, maybe the first couple years, I kept getting emails from people who were sort of offering to write freelance for me, and it w- the reason I would turn them down is pure selfishness. Mm. I was like, “No, I love this.

I’m not giving this-” It’s like people that you

Katherine May: say aye “… I wouldn’t want to give it up.” Like, why?

Kathryn Nicolai: Why? Why? I know. Yeah. I’m having a great time. And then the recording of them is also very soothing. I get quite sleepy. So that’s the only hard thing is, like, if I have two or three episodes to record in a day, I have to space them out because I’ll be pausing the recording just to stop and yawn and be like…

Mm. So it’s a very- Your life is

too

Katherine May: soothing.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, it’s a very enjoyable job. I think the only heaviness is that I, I do recognize that a lot of people are counting on me, and, [00:15:00] um, you’re never gonna get it 100% right for 100% of the people. But, you know, I’m there for people, not just when they have insomnia, but sometimes when they are in those dark nights of the soul.

Mm. And I hear from those folks, and I know, I know they’re listening, and so I just am very protective of that and aware that it’s a responsibility to carry it, but I carry it with a lot of love and compassion.

Katherine May: Yeah. I mean, you must have a really- A, you know, passionate community, I’m guessing. Um, and I, I… As you’re speaking, it’s reminding me of a deeply British thing.

If Americans, you know, have peanut butter, we have the shipping forecast on Radio 4 as it shuts down, which is … Do you know about the shipping forecast?

Kathryn Nicolai: I even- Okay … made an episode about it.

Katherine May: Did you? I need to- Mm-hmm … I need to hunt that one down. I probably slept through it.

Kathryn Nicolai: I’ll send you the link. Yeah, yeah.

Oh. I fell in love with the concept- Yeah … of it, and I, and I heard about it, and then I did some research and listened to it, and I immediately understood why this was such a lovely- Mm … wind down moment of the [00:16:00] day, and sort of like a anchoring experience. Like, this marks- Yeah … the end of this day. We’re all doing the thing we’re meant to be doing.

And so yeah, I absolutely love. I, I wrote it as if it happened here.

Katherine May: Oh, yeah. It’s that routine. But I mean, we, we still broadcast the shipping. I say we like I’m doing it. But the- Yeah. … the British still broadcast the, uh, the shipping forecast even though it’s not needed by shipping, and it’s useless to shipping now.

They’ve got great digital stuff without having to listen to Radio 4 or the World Service. Um-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: but yeah, it still exists just because so many people find it so deeply soothing, and it’s part of a kind of national routine. And

Kathryn Nicolai: yeah- Yeah … it’s- I think that’s so wise just to realize- It’s quietly soothing

like, it serves another purpose culturally-

Katherine May: Mm …

Kathryn Nicolai: than just the one that it was initially set out for. Um, so wise. Yeah. So, yes, I would … That is like a dream moment to me- … is to be in the UK and, like, tuck in at the end of the night and hear that.

Katherine May: Oh, you have to do it one day. It’s so good. I will. Particularly if you’ve got the sea in your ear as well.

That’s [00:17:00] always a, a good moment- Oh … to hear the shipping forecast by the sea. Yeah. So let me welcome you into my clearing in the forest- Okay … um, which is I’m handing over to you to imagine the rest that you dream of taking, and I am so curious to know where we’re gonna find ourselves in your hands. Please, because- Yeah

you imagine these scenarios all the time, so-

Kathryn Nicolai: I do …

Katherine May: where is your, your dream spot to rest?

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. I think I have several. You know, I used to live in Italy, and I’ve been in different places and stuff, but I couldn’t resist Lake Michigan. Um, I get to spend a lot of time on Lake Michigan. Um-

Katherine May: Lovely …

Kathryn Nicolai: and I think if you’ve never seen the Great Lakes, it’s hard to understand how big they are.

Katherine May: Mm.

Kathryn Nicolai: Um, Lake Michigan is about three times the size of Wales. That’s fascinating. In length, it would go from London up to Newcastle. So it is huge. Yeah. And obviously you [00:18:00] can’t see across it. It takes up the entire horizon. And there’s something quite restful to me to be next to something huge- Mm. To feel my smallness next to something vast.

I think it kind of right sizes my worries, and it- Yeah … reminds me, you know, that it seems like a lot of things are urgent and matter, but in the end, I’m just a silly little creature on a flying rock in space.

Katherine May: And- Which is both reassuring and terrifying at the same time. It,

Kathryn Nicolai: it sort of is both. I feel like it’s that cheerful nihilism where I’m like, “Oh, almost nothing matters.”

Katherine May: Yeah. That’s true.

Kathryn Nicolai: I really can’t screw this up. So I would put us, like, definitely in a house right on Lake Michigan. And Lake Michigan- Mm … in a lot of places, the houses are up on a cliff, and it’s a couple hundred steps on stairs down to the water, but that makes it this lovely, vast view. Um, the water itself has a sort of animus and soul.

And when [00:19:00] I go- Yeah … to the west side, which I’m there quite a lot, the first thing I do is go and say hello to Mother Michigan and just feel like I need to just pay her a tribute and be like, “I am here, and thank you for being here.” Yeah. “And I can feel the vast gravity of your presence, and I feel sort of more like myself when I am next to you.”

Mm-hmm. So, um- I really get that. Yeah … to have that, like, in your sight, and to smell it, and to hear it is just, like, vastly refreshing. Um, and you know, I would have us have maybe this beautiful cottage On the lake. But I also think since I’m allowed to envision anything

Katherine May: Anyth- you can have whatever you like, seriously.

Kathryn Nicolai: It’s such a lovely thing. So I’ve, I’ve been, like, w- when you walk on the beach there, sometimes you see these staircases coming down to the water, but you can’t see the house up above. There’s trees, and it’s blocked. And, um, sometimes the [00:20:00] water, there’s a big storm or the water is high for a few years, and the stairs get sort of broken and half washed out.

So you can tell, like- … nobody’s been down these stairs. Yeah. They’re not being used. So what’s going on with that house up there? So I would love to just have a string of houses That we could go up and visit and explore. You know, I’ve had this- Oh, yeah … recurring dream since I was a little kid about being in a giant house, and I find a door that I’ve never found behind, before, and- Mm

rooms behind it, and they are vast museums full of interesting things. And I would love to have that experience, to just, like- Oh … climb through people’s attics. I

Katherine May: love it. I love it.

Kathryn Nicolai: And see their old photographs, you know, and, like, smell, like, the old rooms full of, like, dusty books. So I feel like you’d have your own cozy, warm spot.

And then around you, all this mystery to uncover at your own pace. To me, I feel like I could spend decades there [00:21:00]

Katherine May: Do you know what? This is a really interesting theme that come up, comes up in people’s fantasies- Mm … of rest, which is- Yeah … the kind of rummaging – Oh … for want of a better word. Like- That’s

Kathryn Nicolai: a good word

Katherine May: yeah, like discovering stuff, like fascinating- Yeah … stuff to look through. Yeah. And but it’s not, it’s never grand stuff. It’s never like, “Oh, I’m at the best museum in the world, and there’s, uh, you know, treasures.” It’s like human minutiae almost. Relics, yeah. I want to have a little look through the kind of stuff that human beings own.

Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s fascinating. Yeah. It is. What does that mean?

Kathryn Nicolai: I feel like part of it is, like, affirming that everyone is the same in some ways. Everyone has this weird collection- Mm … of ephemera, um, you know, that means something to us. The ticket stub from this concert you went to, but also, like, this weird pen that, you know, you’ve had forever and, [00:22:00] um, you know, a vase- Yeah

or something that your aunt gave you. And often that’s the excitement I feel in those dreams is I’m going, “Oh my gosh, there’s so much to look at here.” Mm. And that process of looking, it’s not to get to any particular goal, and you never have that experience in life where you just have endless time to- Yeah.

Yeah … observe and glean. Yeah. So I feel like that’s part of the attraction of this idea that I had of all these houses on the beach is, like, it would mean I would have so much time and nothing to accomplish.

Katherine May: I love

Kathryn Nicolai: it. That’s my heaven. I love

Katherine May: it.

Kathryn Nicolai: It’s like

Katherine May: it’s, it’s like a, it’s almost like a labyrinth, you know- Yeah

that you can roam through all these different places. Everywhere’s got a different vibe. Yes. You’re discovering, you’re discovering about people as well as place, and it- it’s like a foraging expedition. Yeah. Do you … In your fantasy, do [00:23:00] you, are you allowed to bring any of the stuff that you like back or- I th-

is it, like, just- … witness?

Kathryn Nicolai: I think definitely I could. I think I could. I’m, I’m, I’m very forgetful, and I lose everything immediately. So I should- Mm … probably leave things where they are, but that also doesn’t sound like me. So I would probably go and have, like, a little magpie situation where I’m collecting bits and putting it, you know, in a little nest at home.

Um, yeah, I think that that- … is kind of the fun of it is being able to discover, like, what is this object? Even, you know, this is making me realize that the book that I wrote that just came out this week is about the same idea. It’s about I- So interesting … walking down a street and looking at different houses and wondering, “What’s the story of the person who lives in that house?”

And even a little- Yeah … “What’s the story of that house?” Mm. Because I wanna go into that house- Because, yeah … and see-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Kathryn Nicolai: what do you got going on in here?

Katherine May: People are such unknown quantities, and you- Yes … it, you know, the it’s so easy to- I [00:24:00] don’t know, zoom past them in, in everyday life and think about them as, like, background characters in the world.

Mm. But as soon as you start to think, “Oh, wait, they’re a central character in their life”-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes …

Katherine May: they become just objects of immense curiosity, and I want to know everything about them.

Kathryn Nicolai: Same. It’s that feeling of sonder, right, where you catch- Mm … somebody else’s experience through a window, and you’re like, “Oh, they have a whole life and a whole story”- Yeah

and things I’ll never know about, and things that mean a lot to them that I can’t understand. And I think that’s so romantic. I fall in love with that.

Katherine May: It really is. So your little place where you’re staying, what’s that like, though? ‘Cause that feels like it’s gonna be a big contrast to all these magnificent abandoned houses.

Yeah. We won’t, we won’t think about why they’re abandoned ’cause that, that’s gonna trouble us. Exactly. We’re just gonna, like- That’s- … they’re just there. That’s fine …

Kathryn Nicolai: there’s just them. Um, I think it’s a lot of porch. There has to be a lot of porch. Some of it’s- Okay … screened in because bugs on Lake Michigan are real.[00:25:00]

Katherine May: Yeah. I bet, yeah, yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. But also lovely. Like, we have … I, I don’t know. I … Some people are annoyed by the screech of cicadas and the katydids, but to me, like, that’s a lovely summer sound that- Yeah … I really, I really enjoy. Mix it with the waves, and that’s, like, the perfect lullaby. Um, so I

Katherine May: imagine- That is summer distilled as, like, an oral perfume, I think

Kathryn Nicolai: you

Katherine May: said.

Right? Yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: I would wear that every day. Um, I think big, um, porch, lots of gliders and swings and benches and places to look out. I think there’d be a big fireplace inside because it … the … as lovely as this would be on a, in the summer or in the autumn, there’s some magic about being there in the winter and being fully snowed in and being- Yeah

you know, the lake effect snow is incredible. And so to watch, like, snow come down on Lake Michigan, which will never freeze over because it’s so gigantic. So to watch, like, the interplay of the- … waves and snow, that would [00:26:00] be amazing. I think definitely there’s a loft with a big bed, with a really- Yeah … heavy quilt, the kind that is so heavy that you feel like you’re just getting smooshed down into the mattress.

Need to

Katherine May: get smooshed.

Kathryn Nicolai: Right? I just- So

Katherine May: do you think you would go in the winter, then,

Kathryn Nicolai: in that place? I think I would go in the winter. Mm. Yeah. I quite like being alone. Um- And I q- I, I play very well by myself. Mm-hmm. You know, probably too well sometimes. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, um, and I like the feeling of solitude and isolation, especially when it’s sort of forced.

Like, that’s the feeling of a snow day, is- Yeah … I couldn’t go to work if I wanted to. I couldn’t be productive if I tried. Right. Sorry. You’re

Katherine May: helpless in this.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes. The choice has been lifted off my shoulder. Yeah. So I get to just luxuriate in being here. Um, so I feel like that would be amazing. The pine forests to walk through when there’s snow.

Um- Mm … we [00:27:00] have so many deer on the west side, um, that they just stand in the road and look at you while you’re waiting for them to cross. And they just stand, you know? So there’s- Wow … tons of wildlife. Eagles with their nests that are, like, four feet across and weigh a ton. Wowie. Like, living right there in the, in the trees.

So I feel like I would never run out of things to look at-

Katherine May: Mm …

Kathryn Nicolai: and be interested about. Um, it would really be a dream. I’m moving, Katherine.

Katherine May: Yeah. Um. That’s, uh, actually, that sound, it sounds attainable. It sounds like there’s some houses going spare that you could- Yes … actually do this in. What are you, um, so what are you doing with your days while you’re there?

Apart from, you’re wandering through these houses. But I, I’m always curious for creative people whether they can set aside their creative work during- Mm … this time. Because I think that’s … I, my, my observation would be it’s something we’re quite bad at doing even when- Yes … we’re intending to do it. Yeah.

But would you still be writing stories- Yeah … or would you be doing something else?

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. You know, I feel like it’s a function of who I [00:28:00] am as a person, so I don’t think I could turn it off- Yeah … any more than I could, like, willfully stop my heart from beating. It is just a function of my brain and mind, you know?

It’s- Mm. So I feel like y- you see a story everywhere. You’re kind of captivated by a possibility wherever you look. But I love that. That’s so much fun to me. Yeah. So I think I would be writing. I also draw a ton.

Katherine May: Oh, lovely.

Kathryn Nicolai: Nonstop. So I thought, you know, I would definitely have, like, a room that looks out at the water where I could, with gobs of art supplies, just a ridiculous number of-

Katherine May: Oh, yeah

Kathryn Nicolai: markers and different kinds of paper and all those lovely paints and stuff like that. And so I definitely think I would be painting. I would be cooking. I love to cook. I love to combine, like- Steady movement of hands and something to listen to, like an audiobook or something like that.

Katherine May: Mm.

Kathryn Nicolai: Mm. Like, I could be chopping vegetables or crocheting or putting a puzzle together and listening to a book for [00:29:00] hours.

Yeah. That is just so heavenly to me. It opens up a space in me where I am more in the flow of the story than I would be- Mm … if I wasn’t otherwise occupied. So-

Katherine May: Definitely. It’s one of my favorite things to do- Yeah … is, like, cooking with an audiobook-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes …

Katherine May: or, you know, having a sort of tedious DIY job to do that otherwise would be really frustrating, but actually you can just get really methodical with it.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes. I can put together those IKEA bookshelves-

Katherine May: Oh …

Kathryn Nicolai: for eight hours if I’ve got a great book.

Katherine May: Line ’em up. Right?

Kathryn Nicolai: There’s, it just unlocks something. So yeah, I feel like there would be lots of little projects like that. Um, in the summer times I’m sure I would garden. I would love to keep bees.

Katherine May: Mm.

Kathryn Nicolai: Um, I don’t know if we- Have

Katherine May: you ever tried it?

Kathryn Nicolai: No. We don’t really have space here. Oh, it’s great, the bees. But my wife is very interested in it, so I’ve bought her all the bee books. Um, so- Yeah … I hope one day we’ll arrive. Have you done that?

Katherine May: Yeah, I’ve done a bit. I haven’t, I haven’t [00:30:00] got my own hive because, um- We’ve been meaning to move house for a few years, and you can’t actually move a beehive very effectively.

Oh. You can either move it less than a meter or less than, or over five miles. Yeah. But if you, if you move the, the hive to the s- to, like, you know, a bit further down the road or something like that to a new house in the same town, the bees will keep going back to- Yeah … the original spot of the hive, and so- Yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: That makes

Katherine May: sense … yeah, they’re not, they’re not very movable. So I’ve had that in mind for a while, but I … And also, I, I don’t know how antisocial it is. I’m, I’m not sure everyone would be like, “Ooh, bees,” in the same way that we are.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. You know, I’ve written about it a couple times in the podcast. Um, like I wrote a story about telling the bees, you know, about the tradition- Oh

to tell the bees when someone- Mm … passes or there’s a change, and I wanted to h- have some stories that kind of hold grief. Yeah. So I felt like that was so appropriate, but I was also aware that I was telling sto- s- a story [00:31:00] about bees that could sting you, and I was like- Yeah … “This might be a big mistake.”

Katherine May: Some people are very worried about them. And they make that ama- like when you get close to a beehive and you can hear them inside, it’s- Yeah … I think it’s one of the magic sounds of the world, that kind of-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: deep bee hum

Kathryn Nicolai: that they sometimes make. Vibration, that drumming, yeah. It’s interesting to think about how- Yeah

how, like there’s a recurrence there of vibration to signal- Mm … something soothing, like a cat’s- Cat purring … purr, llama’s hum. Yeah. Like, what is that about us that we feel- Mm … that we all sort of turn- our bodies have decided?

Katherine May: Well, in

Kathryn Nicolai: fact, I remember- When things are good,

Katherine May: hum … that we used to, uh, I’m going back to Radio 4 again, but we used to have a Radio 4 show c- on a Saturday morning called Home Truths, and people

It was all about people’s everyday life. And, and they used to get into these little conversations with their audience that ran and ran. And one of the ones that ran and ran was that somebody wrote in to say they get themselves to sleep at night by humming. And then floods of people wrote in to say the same thing- Wow

that lots of people [00:32:00] hum themself to sleep.

Kathryn Nicolai: And that, you know, it made me think of too, people call it cricketing, where they rub their feet together like a cricket. Oh, yeah, that’s what, uh, yeah. And I feel like that’s just another example of the same thing, of that- Yeah … creating that, like, s- staticky shift.

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. We’re basically part cricket is what we’re saying. Yep. We’re just- Part cricket, part bee. We relax by insecting.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes.

Katherine May: That’s so … I, that, that actually makes me think of something that comes up in your work a lot, which is the bittersweet. You know, it’s- Mm-hmm … not straightforwardly happy It’s, there is always a little tinge of something in there.

Yeah. And I’m, I’m interested to hear how you introduced that, because actually again, that wouldn’t traditionally be something that people would think is gonna help people to relax.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. I feel like that was an intuitive kind of feeling that I just had that if it didn’t have a balance that felt at least somewhat human, that there was [00:33:00] sometimes some heaviness or, um A feeling of grief or a feeling of loss or a feeling of- Mm

disappointment, that it would feel saccharine. And to me, that- Yeah … doesn’t create a world I can actually climb into. Yeah. That does feel like the fairy tale I was told when I was seven years old, and as an adult, I don’t, I kind of need something that acknowledges my life more, and also sort of says, “That’s okay.

There is space for that. You don’t have to shift that out of the way to feel safe.” Mm. There’s space for that to be there, and then we can also find some softness. Um, which to me felt more reassuring and therapeutic than going, “And nothing is ever wrong.”

Katherine May: Everything’s fine.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. Everything’s great all the time.

No, sometimes, you know, there’s some heaviness here, or, you know, uh, sort of the sweetness of this moment arises from the place we just came from- Yeah … which was not sweet. Um, that that- Yeah … comparative feeling, to me, was more soothing.

Katherine May: Mm. It is, I think, [00:34:00] I think there’s an invitation there to bring your whole humanity-

Kathryn Nicolai: Mm-hmm

Katherine May: with you to this space, which is much more inviting than, you know, actually, sorry, everything negative is excluded here.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah.

Katherine May: Off you go then. Like you’re- Yeah … you’re, you don’t fit in this. It’s like, you know, it’s a, it’s a belonging- Exactly … that we feel when we come across the bittersweet, I think.

Kathryn Nicolai: And it would, would be the thing that would make me sort of cringe when I would see someone wearing a good vibes only shirt.

I’m like, “Oh, all right.” But you know what? Negative emotions serve a purpose. They are part of, they, they tell us- Yeah … information, and they are part of the human experience. So it’s more like come as you are.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: Bring what you have h- on your shoulders today. It’s okay. There’s, we’ll make space for all of it.

Mm. Like to me, that, that’s much more like a genuine and realistic response. It doesn’t- Yeah … can get sort of toxically positive.

Katherine May: I am not a fan of toxic positivity. Me neither. I think it really is one of the most unfriendly [00:35:00] stances that we’ve invented- … in the modern age, actually.

Kathryn Nicolai: It’s so shamey, and I think people- It’s so

Katherine May: shamey

Kathryn Nicolai: it, yeah, and, and it almost comes, it’s, as if they’re trying to avoid that, “Oh, no. We’re not shaming you. We’re just looking on the bright side all the time.” Yeah. “But also, don’t ever look at the darkness.”

Katherine May: Never look into the darkness.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, and if you ever feel sad in a world that can feel sad, that’s your fault.

You did it wrong. Yeah. I’m like, “You know what?” Yeah. “

Katherine May: Get

Kathryn Nicolai: out of here with that.”

Katherine May: My whole, my whole life’s work is like, let’s look into the darkness for a while, children, shall we?

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes.

Katherine May: Let’s spend- No … spend some time with the void.

Kathryn Nicolai: We kind of have to. I don’t know. To me, that feels so comforting, Katherine. I totally relate to that.

Katherine May: I know. I really agree. Like you’re, you’re itching to- Discover it. You’re-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: yeah. You need, you need time with your void, your own personal void.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, definitely. And it’s less scary when you make space for it. It-

Katherine May: Mm.

Kathryn Nicolai: You know, anything we try to push away, it just becomes, like, more sticky and salient. Yeah.

Anything that you try to repress, and eventually it becomes an obsession. That’s why I feel like the [00:36:00] people who wear the good vibes only shirts, they’re absolutely terrified-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Kathryn Nicolai: of, you know, a thing coming out of its perfect pivot point. Y- but that’s not, that’s not gonna be life. So, uh, to me, that just sort of, that shirt says, “I’m so scared.”

Yeah.

Katherine May: I, I sometimes get people at literary festivals or, you know, talks or whatever, who will spend 10 minutes- Mm … arguing the toss with me that actually, like- No, their life is actually perfect, and they’ve never experienced any sadness. Um, they don’t know what this wintery thing is. And you’re like, I mean, I…

All right. Like, j- let’s just say I believe you.

Kathryn Nicolai: Then why are you arguing with me about

Katherine May: it? And then why, yeah, why is this upsetting to you? Yes. But also, like, you’ve definitely got it coming at some point- Yes … because human beings have a fixed lifespan. So you will… If you’ve lost nobody, if nothing awful has happened to you, I’m so pleased for you.

I don’t believe you, but I’m so pleased for you. [00:37:00] But it’s coming.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, your

Katherine May: turn is coming. I’m sorry, but it’s coming.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. And you might not really be pre- prepared for it if you haven’t had friction until now. No. You haven’t had to practice this, and I feel like there’s so much development and growth, and new lovely parts of myself I’ve found through fr- through that friction and loss.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, I don’t think I want that life.

Katherine May: No, me neither. So tell me, what are you packing to bring with you on your retreat? What lovely things are you bringing from home?

Kathryn Nicolai: It was interesting to think about this question because I realized a lot of the things I thought of were not, you know, sort of, um, beloved artifacts, but just things that made the moment feel 2% softer or nicer.

Mm, mm. Like, every coat has a lip balm in the pocket. Every single one. Oh, we…

Katherine May: I think we’re the same person.

Kathryn Nicolai: We are. Never travel without one.

Katherine May: No.

Kathryn Nicolai: Um,

Katherine May: and in- No, in fact, in fact, my husband, who does the washing, [00:38:00] complains- Oh, yeah … that he’s forever picking lip balms out of the washing machine drum that I’ve just left in every single pocket.

Kathryn Nicolai: I totally understand. Just get the 10-pack. Yeah. You’re not gonna change.

Katherine May: Nope. And the, and it turns out they’re quite waterproof, actually. You just kind of- Yeah … dry them out a bit, and they’re fine. Yeah. Fine for another go.

Kathryn Nicolai: They’re good to go. Yeah. And I was thinking about how, like, I love, like, a cinnamon mint or, I don’t know if you guys have- Mm, mm

Wintergreen Life Savers, but- We don’t. But then I would- We have polo mints maybe … they’re, when I gave them to friends in Italy, they were like, “This tastes like medicine.” Oh. And I was like- Well, you give black licorice to children … Italians have loads of… Yeah.

They

Katherine May: have loads of alcoholic drinks that taste of medicine, so surely

Kathryn Nicolai: they’re okay with that.

I think it has to do with, like, what you grew up with. Yeah. You know, that, that taste. But I would have, like, I’d have three or four of those in the, in the other pocket so that as walking through the woods, I, I mean, to me, that is- Those are the little moments that you go, “Oh, this is just a little bit better.

Oh, there’s like-” Yeah … “a heating pad under [00:39:00] this blanket. Oh, my gosh.” You know? You know, “My favorite mug is in, is, is clean and in the cupboard. Okay, that’s the best.” Mm-hmm. Like, I don’t think they’re the items that you sort of carry with you forever, that you are so meaningful because they were gifted to you by this person or handed down from your grandma.

Yeah. I think they’re just the little things that- That make each moment just be a little bit softer and sweeter, and make you go, “Oh, this couldn’t be better.”

Katherine May: Yeah. It’s like the right brand of tea-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: is, it really matters. It matters. You don’t want a different packet of tea when you’re on holiday. You want exactly the same tea, and I always bring my own pillow if I can.

Oh, yeah. If I possibly can.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, I agree. I just got this, this giant pillow that is, like, shaped like a moon, like a crescent moon. Oh. And it, like, wraps, you can wrap it around you while you’re in bed reading- … or you can, like, spoon it. Oh my gosh, they really need to sponsor me. Um, I

Katherine May: know. Yeah. But that- Or you should start producing those.

You could, you could do a good line in-

Kathryn Nicolai: There [00:40:00] we go …

Katherine May: you know- … those kind of pillows. People would be like- Yeah … “Yeah, I trust this person.”

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah.

Katherine May: This person knows pillows.

Kathryn Nicolai: I do.

Katherine May: I’m experimenting this week with a new pillow, which is radical step for me-

Kathryn Nicolai: Wow …

Katherine May: um, stuffed with wool Yeah

Kathryn Nicolai: How do you find that? How is it?

Katherine May: It’s great actually. Yeah. So I like a very firm pillow.

Kathryn Nicolai: Okay.

Katherine May: I don’t want any, like- Squish … I don’t want any squish. Yeah. I would sleep on a brick if you’d let me. Like, I really like …

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes.

Katherine May: And I’ve had for a long time a foam chip pillow, which is nice and firm.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah.

Katherine May: But it makes my head hot. Oh, okay. And I’m of an age where my head is hot.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes,

Katherine May: me too. A lot.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Katherine May: Um, and so the wool apparently is very cooling.

Kathryn Nicolai: I’m kind of surprised. I thought it would trap heat, but no, it-

Katherine May: Yeah, no, it, it dissipates heat really well. Okay. And, um, it’s very firm. Uh, but you can de-stuff it easily without it causing a m- Okay … you know, like if it was a feather pillow and you de-stuffed it, that would be a bad [00:41:00] moment in your life.

Whereas wool, you can just adjust it really well. I’m sold. People complain apparently that it smells sheepy. I wouldn’t say it does smell sheepy. I would say it, there is a smell to it, but it’s like slightly, like almost fruity.

Kathryn Nicolai: Okay.

Katherine May: Um, and it’s way better than that horrible chemical smell that you get from- Oh,

Kathryn Nicolai: for sure

Katherine May: new polyester pillows. I would say,

Kathryn Nicolai: yeah, yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, no, I might try that. I like a firm pillow too. My wife’s pillows are like so flat. No. They, I, I don’t know what … There’ll be like a moment when we’re in bed and I’m like, “I have your pillow. We, get up.” “We need to switch right now.”

Katherine May: Yeah, no.

Kathryn Nicolai: No, God. Don’t know how she’s doing that.

Katherine May: Not allowed.

Kathryn Nicolai: No.

Katherine May: But people that are not fussy about their pillows I find very hard to understand.

Kathryn Nicolai: I, bless them. They must … I know that I’m highly sensitive. I know that I can feel the tag in my clothes. Mm-hmm. And you know, I can hear things. I can even hear like those sonic [00:42:00] sounders that people use to keep the deer away.

Yeah. Um, I, I’m just sensitive, but sometimes when people don’t care about that stuff I’m like, “What’s going on with you? Are you okay?” Their life must be so easy.

Katherine May: Everything, I just imagine them just skipping through the world like-

Kathryn Nicolai: La, la, la … nothing bothering them. Oh, I can sleep on any pillow. It’s not a problem.

Doesn’t matter. I can wear any T-shirt. It’s fine. Good for you. No,

Katherine May: the brand of washing powder doesn’t bother me at all. It’s all great. And so the other thing we always invite our guests, it, to bring is a, a cultural artifact- Mm … of their choice. Yeah. Um, for inspiration, for immersion, for comfort, for whatever.

What would you, what would you choose?

Kathryn Nicolai: This was the hardest thing to narrow down. Mm. So I, I’m cheating and bringing a couple, but, um, I thought about as far as like a book or something. That I would probably go to, like, Rumi or Basho. Um, so-

Katherine May: Mm …

Kathryn Nicolai: I love Rumi [00:43:00] so much, and I know that he was a 13th century Sufi mystic, and I’m a girl from Flint, Michigan, that was born in 1980.

But I feel like we grew up down the street from each other, and that there’s so many lines that I read that just feel like, just, like, so down to earth, like he’s just telling me something over coffee. Yeah. Yeah. That has always stopped me in my tracks. And then I love haikus because I love the simplicity and minimalism of them.

And so I-

Katherine May: The absolute peace that they can capture …

Kathryn Nicolai: they just capture a tiny moment, and you can understand that moment completely. Um, so I thought about Matsuo Bu- Basho because I love his, um- Mm … his haikus. I, the

Katherine May: one-

Kathryn Nicolai: How

Katherine May: lovely … that

Kathryn Nicolai: popped into my head right away was, “Look children, hailstones. Let’s rush out.”

Um. Oh.

Katherine May: I know. They’re so beautiful. Yeah. So, so beautiful. And th- both of those writers- They do … just speak across the centuries, don’t they, in a breathtaking way. And it actually-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, it feels so [00:44:00] human …

Katherine May: I… Yeah. I’m quite fond of, like, Japanese monastic writing from that age altogether. Mm. The prose is amazing, too.

Yeah. Like Chomei. Chomei, Chomei, I dunno how you’d say it, but-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: what an incredible writer, who is talking about being, you know, I think a 13th century monk, and in Japan, in rural Japan. And it’s like that, I shouldn’t be able to relate to that- Yes … really, from everything I know. But I, it’s utterly, to me, like really immediate.

That desire for solitude, that intense sensory contact with the world. It’s just, it’s so soothing. Yeah. What a lovely choice. It feels at

Kathryn Nicolai: home. Yeah. And then I just had, so I was looking through songs too, like, if I had to, like, hear one song or something. Have you ever heard- Hmm … Renee and Georgette Magritte with their Dog After the War?

Katherine May: No. No.

Kathryn Nicolai: It’s a Paul Simon song. W- uh,

Katherine May: as in… Oh, okay. Right. So Re- Renee Magritte, the artist. It’s a-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes …

Katherine May: okay. Okay.

Kathryn Nicolai: And it is just this lovely song that I can listen to over and over again. Um, so I [00:45:00] feel like those are probably the ones that would be sitting around in this little cabin by the lake.

Katherine May: Oh, I love that.

Are you the sort of person who listens to the same song repeatedly? You get … You sort of build a relationship with it? For sure. Mm.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. Mm. I mean, I feel like repetition is already part of my life. That’s why it showed up in the podcast.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: Because- Yeah … I find it quite comforting. Um, you know, and I … Do you read the same books again and again, Katherine, or?

Katherine May: Some of them. I, I kind of do both in that I’ve got a set of books that I reread over and over. Yeah. And then, and then the rest I’m like, I’m trying to get through so many. There’s so many books in this world that I want to read. I know. And so I, I, in some ways I reread less than other people, but there are

Like, I reread Hitch- Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. I reread The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole. And weirdly, I reread U- Ulysses by James [00:46:00] Joyce, which most people wouldn’t fight me on. Oh my God, I haven’t gotten through it once. Oh, I love it. I, I, I … My advice is always try the audiobook- Yes … if you struggled with the- Yes

’cause that, I find that helped with Ulysses. But-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: once you’ve- I will do that … got to know it, it’s, it’s really friendly. Okay. It’s a friendly book, but you, it takes a lot of effort to get to know it, and I just, you know, I was like 24 and decided that I was gonna conquer it. And I –

Kathryn Nicolai: That’s inspiring ’cause it’s been sitting there looking at me for a long time, and I’m like, “Not today.

Not, not today.”

Katherine May: No. No. I, there are so many books that I could say that about. Like- Yeah … you know, the Proust, um, uh, the whole sequence of Proust books that everybody loves. Yeah. I can’t. I can’t. I’ve not got past the first chapter ever. Okay, well, I’m glad I’m not the

Kathryn Nicolai: only one. But Ulysses is my one. Yeah.

Katherine May: And also Moby Dick, such a relaxing read.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah.

Katherine May: Other people do not agree, but I just … I’m so soothed by it. It’s just- [00:47:00] Yeah … I don’t know.

Kathryn Nicolai: I get it. You know, I feel like I’m the same. You’ll read a book and sometimes you’re like, “Okay, I know I’m gonna read this 10 more times in my lifetime.” Yeah. Like East of Eden, John Steinbeck. Mm. That’s a book I’ve read over and over again.

And then other books you’re like, “I love that I read this book, but I don’t necessarily feel like I need to read it again.” Yeah. Like that’s,

Katherine May: I’ve done that one now, thank you so much. Yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes, yes. Yeah. I’m so glad I, I did. But that’s good. So, um- Yeah …

Katherine May: There are certain ones that just-

Kathryn Nicolai: They

Katherine May: just- … bear that repetition

Kathryn Nicolai: and then if you can let yourself go a couple years and you forget, and then you read it- Mm … and you’re like, “Oh my God, this line is amazing. This pivot is unbelievable,” and it never stops blowing your mind

Katherine May: Can you listen to the record and read the book at the same time, or do you have to give your full attention to either?

Kathryn Nicolai: Usually full attention to either. Yeah. Yeah. Because I just … And I do mostly audio, honestly. I, I feel like I understand better through audio. Mm-hmm. I comprehend and retain better through audio. Um, I remember the first audiobook I [00:48:00] ever heard when I was maybe six. It was called The Wolves of Willoughby Chase.

Ah, yes. And it was like … Yeah. Yeah Like a kids’ Gothic, right? Yeah. And I made my dad check it out from the Flint Public Library every two weeks- … for the entire summer because I could not stop listening to it. Um, so- Such

Katherine May: a lovely

Kathryn Nicolai: book. I- Yeah. That’s always been magical to me, to hear things- Yeah … rather than to just read them.

So, um, and I feel like- Yeah, absolutely … you know, like you said, there’s so much to read, and there’s so little time. Mm-hmm. That to find the time to just stop and just read is tricky, but, like, I have three hours in the car when I drive to the west side of the state.

Katherine May: Exactly.

Kathryn Nicolai: We’re getting some reading done.

Katherine May: Exactly. And I, I love audiobooks. Yeah. It really surprises me how few people listen to audiobooks, actually, ’cause I … Yeah. No. It’s, it’s another way of fitting stories into my day, but-

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah …

Katherine May: I, there are certain kinds of books that I would sit and read in the text. Mm-hmm. And there are some that I would listen to, and it’s a very distinctive- It’s

Kathryn Nicolai: [00:49:00] different Yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah. I like quite a conversational book to be- Mm … an audiobook. I like to feel like someone’s talking to me. So I love a memoir or a kind of-

Kathryn Nicolai: Oh, yeah …

Katherine May: even like a self-help or something, I quite like on audiobook.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, or something that’s sort of anthropological or his- Yeah … historical, like Bill Bryson or something, like when you- Oh,

Katherine May: he’s a great audiobook guy

Kathryn Nicolai: He’s great.

Yeah. Yeah. Like his One Great… Was it called One Great Summer or, I don’t know if you heard that. I’ve never read

Katherine May: that one.

Kathryn Nicolai: Oh my gosh, Katherine, I’ve heard it- Okay … like 10 times. Okay. I’m gonna write that down. Um, but it’s about, um, the summer of 1927, I think. Okay. And so many incredible things happened all over the world, and he always has this way of explaining things that you just completely- He’s such a great explainer

understand. Yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: Um, so yes. Let me know what you think of that one.

Katherine May: Oh, I will. I’ll listen to that. And I love a David Sedaris to listen to.

Kathryn Nicolai: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. We were just listening- His new- … to his latest, going back and forth. Oh. And it was

Katherine May: so- It’s really good, actually.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah, it is really good.

Katherine May: I think it’s

I was, I was a little bit worried that maybe he was [00:50:00] going off the boil a bit, but he’s really ha- Good … he really hasn’t. Really? His one on Duolingo is just chef’s kiss.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes, I love that one too.

Katherine May: I related very strongly, having been, you know, haunted by The Green Owl for some time myself- … and not learnt a single damn thing.

What

Kathryn Nicolai: language are you learning?

Katherine May: Spanish.

Kathryn Nicolai: Okay.

Katherine May: Yeah. Uh, my mother, until recently, she died recently, but she lived in Spain, and I decided that as she got older, ’cause she never spoke much Spanish um, that the service I could do to her was to learn- Yeah … Spanish. But I never got anywhere. Oh, I get it. I just, I could maybe order food, you know?

But …

Kathryn Nicolai: I have a degree in Spanish. Have you? My degree is in Spanish.

Katherine May: Wow.

Kathryn Nicolai: Because-

Katherine May: Wow …

Kathryn Nicolai: because I speak Italian, because I lived in Italy, um, and that was in high school. So I came back and I was like, “Okay, now I have to go to college, and I’m 17-” “… and I have to figure out what I wanna study,” which is a terrible idea- Mm

letting [00:51:00] 17-year-olds pick these things.

Katherine May: I know. It’s impossible. It- How do you know anything about the world? It’s …

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. Yeah, I got it way wrong, and I never regret a second of education that I had. My college degree taught me 100 other things. But, and I got to read a lot of great literature.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kathryn Nicolai: But I’ve never used the Spanish.

Katherine May: No. It’s-

Kathryn Nicolai: And it’s quite dusty in my brain. And, and four years of it didn’t make me as fluent as 11 months in Italy made me in Italian. Yeah. So, you know- Yeah … I think sometimes nothing beats- You’ve just gotta be in there … just being there. But The Green Owl- But The Green Owl’s not

Katherine May: gonna

Kathryn Nicolai: teach you that.

Katherine May: No.

No, I’m done with The Green Owl. I’m just- It was just taking up hours of my time. So- When do you know when you’re ready to come back from this break? Like, is there a point for you when you just think, “I’m done now”?

Kathryn Nicolai: I think there probably is. I think that it would take a while, but I think I would get the itch to, um, to be around the people and do the things, but it might take a while.

And I feel like, [00:52:00] you know, there are some people who really struggle to do nothing. Mm. I would watch them in yoga to lay in Shavasana at the end of class, and you could see the people whose hands would go- … clench into a fist. They’re fighting the urge to jump up and move to the next thing, and that is not me.

Mm. I’ve always been a sleepy girl. I’ve always been a little bit slothful, and quite proud of it. And I think it is sort of a superpower in the modern world- Yeah … um, to be able to be very comfortable doing very little. So I feel like it would take a long time for me to feel like, “Okay, I’m ready to do something.”

Mm. But I think, um, I think you know when you just crave something different in the same way that you craved the retreat. I feel like at some point- Yeah … you feel that need building up. There’ll be a tipping point.

Katherine May: You’re just ready for the next phase.

Kathryn Nicolai: And you’re ready to move to the next, yeah.

Katherine May: And is there a souvenir that you bring home from your break?

And is it from one of those houses? I’ve di- dying to know. Like, a whole chandelier. [00:53:00] Right? Yeah. Why not? If they’re not using it, right?

Kathryn Nicolai: They’re not. It’s up for grabs. Um, y- my first thought was I’d probably f- try to find a Petoskey stone on, um, the beach of Lake Michigan because they are kinda precious when you find them.

But

Katherine May: what’s a, what’s a P- I don’t know what this is, a

Kathryn Nicolai: Petoskey stone. A Petoskey stone is a fossilized bit of coral. Um, and it-

Katherine May: Ooh.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yes, it looks a little bit like a honeycomb, um, because there’s lit- You can see those little- Yeah … um, dots on it. Um, and it, it is the Michigan stone. It is the state stone. Oh, wow.

Um, so they are sort of prized here. And, um, to me that is … You know, I’ve written a couple stories about walking on the beach and picking up stones. Mm. Because, um, that is, like, top-tier activity. And, um, you know, so I feel like something like that would come back with me or, or something from a big house, something, an object that I could not solve a mystery about, but would

A, a big [00:54:00] skeleton key or something like that, that you could just look at forever and go- … “What is the story of this thing?”

Katherine May: Ah, I love that. Yeah. I love it. Um- Yeah … thank you so much for sharing your break- Yeah … with, with us today. It’s been delightful. Thank you for

Kathryn Nicolai: giving me such a great place to think about this stuff.

It was- … it was a little bit of a retreat just to think about it, you know? It’s,

Katherine May: I tell you what, it’s really restful recording these podcasts.

Kathryn Nicolai: Yeah. There’s,

Katherine May: I

Kathryn Nicolai: always come away like, “Oh, that’s better.” Oh. Absolutely.

Katherine May: Ah, welcome back. Wasn’t that lovely? I really enjoyed that conversation and I hope you did too.

I am speaking with the noises of the dog in the background, who is chewing on, uh, a bone that a friend had saved for my dear dog. Uh, and it was gifted to her this morning, and the dog has done nothing else but chew this bone all day, and she’s interspersed that, to be fair, with some bouts of lying on her back snoring.[00:55:00]

So I do feel like Fraggle really does live the best life that it’s possible to live if you’re a dog. Um, and I, I think there’s a whole kind of universe that could be unpacked from learning to rest like Fraggle. Maybe I’ll suggest it to Katherine and see if it catches on. I don’t know. Oh, I am, as we speak, lighting a little candle because the light is fading, and these little evenings are drawing in now.

I woke up yesterday morning to find the garden was full of fog. It was a really, really beautiful thing, and the air has started to smell, oh, just that really nice, damp, mulchy, autumn smell when I get up in the morning, which I am really, really liking. I didn’t leave the house while I had COVID ’cause I was being good.

Uh, but I have now been able to take the dog out for a little walk, and I felt like I was doing all the [00:56:00] sniffs at the same time as her this morning because it all just felt a little bit transformed. My season begins, friends. I wish I wasn’t quite so in love with it still. I wish I could be more cynical.

No, I don’t. I love it. I love it wholeheartedly. I love even being able to strike a match and light a candle in the afternoon. It’s a great, great thing. I hope you’re all enjoying it too. When I get my energy back, I’m gonna go out into the woods and go looking for some mushrooms. But I’m still not there yet.

Still gotta take it easy. Drinking lots of nice tea with honey, sometimes a bit of lemon. Putting my feet up whenever I feel a bit tired. I am so, so lucky to have the sort of job that lets me do that, even though I do get panicked about not keeping up with everything. But there we go. I, uh, [00:57:00] I hope that you are getting the rest you need at the moment.

And thank you for all of you that have been joining me for my bonus episodes. They’ve been really fun lately. I got totally into talking about my favorite, favorite, favorite electronic musician, um, Suzanne Ciani last week, and I hope that didn’t bore you all to tears. I hope you found it interesting rather than completely weird.

Um, I followed that by listening to some free jazz last week, which startled my husband because he is not used to me listening to that kind of thing. But there we go. Perhaps my whole sense of musical integrity is unraveling as I travel through this life. I don’t know. Anyway, listen, thank you for being here.

Please join me next week. I’ve got another great guest, and I am off on retreat for a few days with my lovely writer pals to try and get some [00:58:00] more working and thinking and important talking done. So I’ll see you on the other side. Take care.