Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello. It’s Katherine here, back in South West London on one of my meanders to a hospital.

Today I’m in somewhere a little more post-industrial, I’d say. There are some scars of old buildings on the ground

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello. It’s Katherine here, and I’m not gonna be moaning about how hot it is this week because it has rained and rained and rained over the last two d- Just outside in the garden in a rare break between rain showers, trying to rescue the dress I put on the washing line three days ago, which has just got rained on repeatedly ever since.

I think it still might start again, but it’s lovely out here today. It’s cooler, and the garden looks really grateful, frankly. There’s that lovely smell of, uh, roses after the rain. I’ve got this brilliant climbing rose that is, uh, full of little tiny pinkish [00:01:00] white flowers, and the smell of it right now, that fresh rose water smell, is just absolutely magnificent.

When it rains after so much hot dry weather, it’s like the whole of nature sighs in relief. And that’s a little bit how I’m feeling, quite honestly, ’cause it has been hot. I think I just heard some thunder though, so this, this might not go that well. Anyway, how are you? I am good. I’m at home, looking after my mom at home for a while, while she still waits for surgery, and that’s another little exhalation, I think, in my family right now.

We get to spend time together that’s not in an institution. My mom’s getting

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Katherine here. Welcome back to season three of the Clearing podcast. I mean, let’s admit it, season two was slightly curtailed, um, by my life exploding. Uh, those of you that listen and don’t read, um, unfortunately my mom died, uh, on the 24th of June after a lot of time spent in hospital. Um, and I did try for a while to keep up with the podcast while she was ill, but after a little while I decided that making a podcast about rest while not taking an obvious break from [00:01:00] something that could easily be set aside, uh, while everything was incredibly difficult, is not setting a very good example to the outside world.

Um, but also not meeting my own needs, of course. And, uh, yeah, so, oh, we had to pause recordings and had a little break. Um, and I have been… I’d like to be saying, you know, I’ve been lying in my bed being tended to by the angels, but of course, that is not how these things happen. Um, so I’ve been doing some sadmin, uh, as has my beloved husband, who’s done a lot of it for me.

Um, and generally straightening the world back out again, while also trying to make some time to feel my feelings, which is not always very easy to do when there is a lot on [00:02:00] your plate. But here we are, we are the other side of a very long, very hot, very tiring summer. It’s been a weird one, hasn’t it?

We’ve had heat wave after heat wave after heat wave here in the south of England, and by the end of July, everything was dried to a crisp. My little tiny pond in my garden just keeps running out of water altogether, and for a while I was trying to fill it up from the water butt, but then the water butt ran out.

And, and by the way, brackets, the dog drank most of it. Not looking, you know, in an accusing way at Fraggle, but my God that dog can drink the pond. That’s why we don’t have any frogs in it. I suspect she’s swallowed a good quantity of tadpoles over the years. [00:03:00] Um, yeah, and then just horrible news all summer of wildfires and really dreadful environmental destruction.

It’s felt very apocalyptic I’m hoping, I’m recording this a couple of weeks in advance, I’m hoping that by the time we are talking here, that there’s been much rain and we’re all feeling plumped up and replenished again, instead of brown and dried out. I don’t know if that’s too much to hope for. But yeah, there we are.

Anyway, we’re back. We’re back, baby. I’m really glad to be back, and in fact, back with a new series that is, oh, chef’s kiss. [00:04:00] Chef’s kiss. We have some brilliant guests coming up for you, and a real sense, I think, of this podcast kind of bedding into what it does best, which is to not think about fantasy rest alone, but think about the impossibility of rest, and therefore the fantasy.

That’s how it… That’s the order it comes in. I’m starting today. Sorry, I should say I’m marching through the back streets of Whitstable, as I so often do. I’m actually about to go on the sleeper train to Edinburgh to see the Edinburgh Festival, because I thought about my dream rest right now, and that really entailed laughing like a drain for a few days at a load of stand-up comedy.

And so that’s what I’m doing. And I’ve always [00:05:00] wanted to go on the Edinburgh sleeper train. So that’s also what I’m doing, because do you know what, friends? Life is short and hard, and we have to take our joy where we can find it. And my joy right now definitely resides in doing something passive, turning up, watching, laughing, just feeling the blessing of other people’s talents and hard work instead of trying to summon up my own.

So that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m up to. Um, but actually, in preparation for that, I am in fact marching to the pharmacy to pick up a prescription that was issued to me two weeks ago and that I’ve repeatedly forgotten to get, and which I now realize is quite urgent. So, uh, so you’re accompanying me to see the pharmacist, who will probably give me a stern look and, like, wonder why I didn’t [00:06:00] actually collect the medication I so clearly need.

Big sigh. Things are busy. Um, yeah, so anyway, the, uh, guest I have today is the lovely Elise Løhnen. You probably know Elise, right? You might have read her book, I hope you have, uh, which is called On Our Best Behavior, which is an excellent, excellent deep dive into how the idea of sin has colored the way we see women.

Um, I learned so… honestly, that was one of those books that I, um, started reading and then had to, like, continually put down because I was, like, making a note of this or looking up a reference here. It was so replete with, like, gorgeous nuggets of interesting fact, um, and very sort of, I don’t know, [00:07:00] like, a very…

I was about to say shocking. I don’t mean it’s shocking, but what I mean is it hit me really hard how we have so often associated sin with feminine qualities. It’s brilliant. Anyway, you might know that, but if you don’t, do take a look. But anyway, what was kind of humbling was after my whirlwind of a year booking Elise to talk on the podcast because she’s great and interesting, and I was just thinking I’d love to talk to her about sloth and the idea of rest and how those two concepts contrast.

And then finding, because I, you know, I’m behind on reading everybody’s newsletters. I don’t think it’s a shameful thing to say that when you’ve had, like, an intense year. And then realizing that Elise herself had been really [00:08:00] sick and had been, uh, diagnosed with breast cancer, and that in fact this turned out to be the first interview she did after her surgery.

What a privilege and honor to talk to her about that. Because of course, as you might expect from her, she was funny and thoughtful and pretty inspiring about it all really. Um, and I did reflect afterwards that Those of us who’ve been in the cancer coalmines, um, have all developed a sort of dark sense of humor about it, which I wonder if it might seem inappropriate to people who haven’t been there.

Um, I suspect this audience will give a sly nod of recognition to us giggling about mastectomies and radical surgery. [00:09:00] Um, but just to let you know that, you know, that is where we’re both coming from, that the, the grim humor takes over after a while and becomes not just a coping mechanism, I think that maybe is to say too little about it, but in fact, a way of telling a kind of truth about it all, which is that it’s rolled into life, honestly.

And even where things are very, very dark, human beings crack jokes about them always. It’s one of the things I admire us most for, all of us. And of course, every now and then we lose our sense of humor about it entirely, as is right and proper. Anyway, listen, do take a listen to this conversation because the dream rest that Elise came up with made me squeal with delight [00:10:00] because it was just so weird, but also immediately recognizable as a fantastic thing to do with your time.

Uh, let’s see if you agree, and I’ll be back afterwards to say goodbye and check in once the spoilers are not possible anymore. See you in a bit

Elise, welcome to The Clearing 

Elise Loehnen: Thank you for having me. I am beyond excited to talk to you. Any opportunity- It’s- … to talk to you- 

Katherine May: Yeah, I know … is a total delight and gift I always have a little chat with you. I mean, I was, I was saying backstage that, um, when I approached you to do the podcast, uh, because we have both had quite the year, um, I was not up to date with your news and so I was like, “Oh, I wanna talk to Elise about this,” because she’ll be able to talk really clearly about, like, rest in terms of the idea of sloth and how we, you know, [00:11:00] how we feel so guilty about the rest that we take.

And I also was hoping for horse content, of course, so I wore my horse shirt. Um, but then- You’re in 

Elise Loehnen: luck. They’re related 

Katherine May: But- yay. But then I caught up, and you’ve been having a, a very enforced break for quite- Yes … a while, right? 

Elise Loehnen: Yes. Can 

Katherine May: you catch 

Elise Loehnen: us up? This is… Yeah, I’ll catch you up. This is the first time I’ve been on, on the podcast mic in a couple months, which is, I’m thrilled to be with you.

It’s perfect. I’ve had my own wintering, but in the spring. Um, but yeah, I essentially, I’m the child of a physician, which means that I am alternately overly medicated and underdoctor-ed … um, and a self-prescriber, a, a self-dealer, you know? Nice. Um, always calling my dad- Nice situation to be in, honestly Yeah, yeah.

I’m like, “I need a Z-Pak.” [00:12:00] But, um, essentially I’m at that age, in my late 40s, where my father has been like, “Get a primary care physician. You need someone,” and I don’t wanna bore you with, like, how the medical system works in America, but it can be awfully hard to find someone because everyone in LA where I live is now, like, a concierge physician where you have to pay to be in their practice, and they- So everything’s-

don’t take insurance. It’s ridiculous … 

Katherine May: super fancy now, basically. 

Elise Loehnen: Yes, ridiculous. Yeah. Okay. And, um, and so finally I, I, um, needed to switch OBGYNs anyway and, uh, found a primary care physician at UCLA who did my, like, full family history and sent me for an MRA because my mom and my aunt both had ruptured aneurysms.

They both survived. Oh, 

Katherine May: wow. Okay. 

Elise Loehnen: And, um, l- to make a long story short, I was, in the span of a few weeks, was diagnosed with, um- [00:13:00] An aneurysm, which I will repair in the new year. A brain aneurysm, which wonderfully, Katherine, is not that big of a deal when you catch it before it ruptures. They’re very- So a brain 

Katherine May: one or an aortic one?

I 

Elise Loehnen: have a brain aneurysm. 

Katherine May: Okay. And it’s- ‘Cause my mom just died of an aortic aneurysm, so. 

Elise Loehnen: Oh, no. Yeah. 

Katherine May: We- we’ve got a lot in common this year. Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah, we’re having the same- 

Katherine May: I know … run. Know much about aneurysms right now, yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah, I don’t know as much about aortic aneurysms. I know- Oh … a fair amount about- I 

Katherine May: mean, 

Elise Loehnen: they are-

brain ones … they’re not good They’re just killers. They’re not- Right? 

Katherine May: Yeah, yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: They’re just instant killers. Yeah. Yeah, 

Elise Loehnen: yeah. Yeah. Brain aneurysms are devastating, um, if they rupture. Yeah. So, and most people don’t know that they’re asymptomatic. Yeah, sure. So it’s a total blessing that I- 

Katherine May: Mm … 

Elise Loehnen: uh, and I was supposed to be getting screened.

I got screened when I was 20, and then I kinda forgot and got busy, so. ‘

Katherine May: Cause, ’cause life is busy and we miss- Life is- … these things, don’t we? 

Elise Loehnen: And we don’t have primary care physicians, you know- Oh, God … because we think we’re infallible. So, [00:14:00] so anyway, so I was di- I have a brain aneurysm that will need to be repaired, but I also was diagnosed with very early stage breast cancer I got the, as my friend told me, I have the, or had, uh, the Disneyland of breast cancers, uh, because it’s the dumb slow kind.

And- That’s the good kind to have … it’s the good kind, yeah. Yeah. And that was diagnosed on mammogram. It happened to be on my mammogram last year, but my OBGYN, who I had left, never called me to tell me that I’d had an abnormal mammogram. 

Katherine May: Oh. 

Elise Loehnen: So through a long series of conversations with my oncology team, you know, I went from being like, from getting a biopsy and being like, “This is ridiculous.

There’s just no way I have breast cancer. I have no family history, and-” Oh, wow … “well, isn’t this a nuisance?” To, um, a double mastectomy, uh, a month ago, which was just not at all where I thought I would end up, but it ended up- … [00:15:00] being- 

Katherine May: I love the understated nature of that sentence. Like, “That’s not where I thought I’d end up.”

Elise Loehnen: Katherine, I did not have- It’s wild. It’s wild … losing my boobs on my bingo card for 2026. This is not how- No … the year started. And so- 

Katherine May: No … 

Elise Loehnen: um, I have had a wonderful team at UCLA and, and, uh, yeah, it was just normally the women that I spoke to initially who had, who had this diagnosis who are older were like- Mm

“It’s simple. It’s a lumpectomy, and then you take tamoxifen, and you get radiation.” Yeah. And when I spoke to my oncologist, my surgical oncologist, I had a lot of it. I had 6.5 centimeters of this calcifications. Okay. 

Katherine May: So it’d been growing for quite a while then. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. Yeah. And when you’re 40, in your 40s versus being in your 60s or 70s- 

Katherine May: Mm

Elise Loehnen: the recurrence rates are such that I was gonna get it again. Right. So, um, most likely. So, um, [00:16:00] she… And, and if I had had just a lumpectomy, I would’ve needed a… It was so much that I would’ve needed bilateral surgery anyway. And so the low maintenance thing came to be- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: a double mastectomy. So- So 

Katherine May: how- Here 

Elise Loehnen: we are

Katherine May: I mean, h- yeah. Wow, here we are. Um, looking great, incidentally. Um- 

Elise Loehnen: I 

Katherine May: feel great … how long did you have- Yeah … to make that deci- I mean, that’s one hell of a catch-up to play. 

Elise Loehnen: Yes. 

Katherine May: And I, and I think- Well- … that’s what it’s like when you get a diagnosis like this, isn’t it? You are, you, you, like you’re d- in this accelerated program of radical acceptance of- 

Elise Loehnen: Yes

Katherine May: mortality in the most shocking way. Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: And it’s alternately long and short. You know, I got my diagnosis, of course I was backstage about to interview a Holocaust historian in, in Omaha, Nebraska, when I got a call from my doctor, and then I was like, “I gotta get through this thing.” Um, which was an amazing conversation.

[00:17:00] But, um- I’m sure, 

Katherine May: yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: the, it’s good context, right? Things could be very, very much worse. Yeah. And, um- That was in, in April 14th, and my surgery was June 2nd. And that actually, I think if they’d had their way, I would have had surgery even sooner. Yeah. But I was teaching a retreat, and I was like, “I’ve got a bunch of people who are flying in for this.”

Mm-hmm. And I, I felt like I also needed it. It was a whole retreat about letting go. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: So, I was like, “This feels cosmic.” So they let me- Yeah … do it the, the, immediately after I got back. But it’s still, um The number of appointments, tests, you know, genetic testing, an additional MRI, pre-ops. Yeah. So it’s a full-time job just managing- It really is, yeah

appointments as you’re- Yeah … preparing for this type of thing. Um, I accepted the hand that I was dealt, which was the doctors who I was assigned, who turned out to be [00:18:00] excellent. Great. I sort of, I had a whole signs dream the night before where I felt like, “Okay, the universe is taking care of me. I am just gonna surrender-” Mm

“to this process and submit to my doctors,” as long as I felt like they were wonderful- Yeah … which they were. I was like- Yeah, of course. Yeah … “I submit to your, your experience here.” Your wisdom, 

Katherine May: yeah. Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. And ’cause I, you know, you start talking to people and they’re like, “I have interviewed, I interviewed everyone,” and you start thinking that this is something you should control- Mm

or that- 

Katherine May: Mm … 

Elise Loehnen: um, that there’s a right way to do this and that someone’s gonna screw you over and, you know- Yeah … I see a lot of friends- Yeah … get really fixated on the decision-making process. And I- Mm … think coming from a medical family is helpful. I l- I love physicians, and yes, they mess up. Yeah. And, um- 

Katherine May: Yeah

Elise Loehnen: and I was like, I, very early on in my appointments when I went in and I was like, “So I’m getting a lumpectomy and da, da, da,” and she was like, “Not so [00:19:00] fast.” And- Mm … you know, when I went to my plastic surgeon and was like, “I want a DIEP flap autologous reconstruction. I wanna keep my own nipples. If I can’t have that, I’m doing direct to implant.”

Um- Right … and she was like, and she does all of it. She’s, she’s like the only female microsurgeon at UCLA. Autologous is where they take your own flesh from other parts of your body and reconstruct you- Mm-hmm … so you don’t need an implant. It’s amazing if, if you can do it. But she was like, “You’re not a candidate.

You don’t have enough flesh and you…” “If we do direct to implant, you’re gonna-” What’s that saying? … “It’s too b- too much.” I’m tall and I have big boobs. She’s like, “Your skin will die. You’ll get necrosis.” Right. Um, “You’re doing the slow train, and you’re doing expanders to implants, and then you’re gonna let me reconstruct your nipples, because if you keep your nipples, you will be unhappy.

They’ll be in the wrong place.” Um, 

Katherine May: and- These things that you never give a moment’s thought to- No … in your [00:20:00] entire life before that moment. No. And suddenly you’re making these… I mean, I, nipples are really personal. Like- Yes … everybody’s nipples are so different. 

Elise Loehnen: Yo, and you feel like everyo- everyone I spoke to was like, “You have to keep your nipples,” who has been through this process.

And- Right … so I went in being like, “I have to keep my nipples.” And- Yeah … I get it because I wanted something that felt like mes- myself, and it felt, it feels a little like I was a little ashamed that I wasn’t a candidate to keep my nipples. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Like 

Elise Loehnen: I failed- But in that- … 

Katherine May: to be this, this kind of- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: yeah.

Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: And, but in that moment- Of talking to my doctor. I was saying to you before, you were like, “What do they even look like?” They have books of nipple reconstructions, and it’s quite advanced now, where they origami the skin, and you get it tattooed. I want that book. But I was just … Yeah, no. In that process of that, that conversation, I was just like, “I submit.

I surrender.” Yeah. “I don’t care.” I’m just like, “I’m just do- You choose.” Yeah, yeah. “You’re, I am in your hands.” ‘

Katherine May: Cause you know, you ultimately know better. Yeah. [00:21:00] I had exactly the same thing with my hysterectomy that, um, everybody said to me, “Keep your cervix.” And I, so I went in and was like, “I wanna keep my cervix.”

And she was like, “I mean, sure, but you know, this could happen and this could happen. And you’re much more likely to, you know,” like it’s, ’cause I had really terrible fibroids, like crazy, like a whole city of like wild fibroids. A world of fibroids. Uh, 

Elise Loehnen: yeah. Did any of them have teeth and hair, Katherine? 

Katherine May: I wanted to ask, but I thought that would make me seem really weird.

We- 

Elise Loehnen: No, I’m so, I, uh, 

Katherine May: yeah. One of my favorite- I mean, that’s a thing … things that ever happened at university was one of my friends came back from her biology, sorry to anyone that isn’t fascinated by this stuff and thinks it’s disgusting, but my, one of my good friends came back from her biology lesson with a photo of a fibro- a uterine fibroid with fully differentiated skin, teeth, and hair.

It’s amazing. And I was a bit like, “I hope, I hope mine have got all teeth.” Yeah. Like, they feel like they’ve got teeth. My God. You want 

Elise Loehnen: them to have some real personality. [00:22:00] I mean- I 

Katherine May: know, right? … 

Elise Loehnen: and some distinguishing features. Yes. 

Katherine May: I do f- I do imagine them as a little city of people, like gazing up at me.

Elise Loehnen: It’s a great concept for a book. 

Katherine May: Is it though? Is it? Are you sure about- I love 

Elise Loehnen: this show … you 

Katherine May: fully sure about 

Elise Loehnen: that? Yeah. I mean, I’m not at all disgusted by the body, so, um, bring on the 

Katherine May: fibroids with teeth. No, me neither. I find it so interesting. 

Elise Loehnen: Same. 

Katherine May: But doctors don’t always like it if you’re too interested, do they?

They think, “Oh, who have I got on my hands here?” When you’re like- Yeah … “

Elise Loehnen: Has it got 

Katherine May: teeth?” Has it got teeth? Anyway, anyway, you know, my surgeon was very clear that actually the safest thing to do is to remove your ovaries and your cervix, and she’s like, “Hey, there’s a part of your body you can’t get cancer in.

That’s great, isn’t it?” And I was sort of like- Yeah … “Oh, yeah. Yeah, you’re right.” Yeah. “I mean, sure, do what you, do what you think is best,” because I’d, I’ve never removed anyone’s uterus, so what do I know? No. So yeah, you- 

Elise Loehnen: I mean, if, if a part of your body- You just have to surrender a bit … is trying to kill you, as my- Yeah

this lymphatic masseuse was explaining to [00:23:00] me, then you just You get 

Katherine May: rid of it Yeah, you remove it Yeah Yeah, and you kind of try and guarantee it can’t try and kill you at any point in the future 

Elise Loehnen: Yes. It’s a, there’s great relief in that, you know? Yeah Was, was also a, uh, as I went down this path, I was like, “All right, I don’t have to get mammograms anymore.”

I have to go get- Mm … physically checked once a year, but, or, but it’s- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: I’m done- Yeah … with that part of my life and waiting and one less thing 

Katherine May: My s- my surgeon had this hilarious flourish when at our final appointment, like the checkup, she kind of did a thing that was like, “Ta-da, you won’t have periods anymore.”

I was like, “Oh, God, I hope not.” Are you jo- Like, is that supposed to not have occurred to me? Like, please, that was the, the entire aim- The top of the list … that I wasn’t gonna continually try and bleed to death for like 20 days of every month. Like, I really don’t- 

Elise Loehnen: Totally. Yeah … I 

Katherine May: really hope I’m not gonna have a period again, you know?

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: But it is- Um … it’s those, those moments that you think, “Oh, what a, what a relief,” you know? It’s not, it’s not that it’s not weird and traumatic and brings up loads of [00:24:00] different thoughts about who you are now, but, and you know, for me, like immediate menopause obviously because- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: everything was gone.

Um, but at the same time, there’s like a, “Oh, I’m done with the weird parts of being of reproductive age”- Being a woman … and that is- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: amazing to me. I know. I, 

Elise Loehnen: I love it. 

Katherine May: Love it. 

Elise Loehnen: I’m still, I haven’t gone through menopause yet, but I’m very excited and I feel like I dis- Like bring it … I understand that it can be a drag and- Yeah

I think it’s such an initiatory rite, and to be on the other side of it feels like- Yeah … it could feel very powerful. So 

Katherine May: I am excited. I mean, I think perimenopause is the drag. That’s the huge drag for- Right … and I’ve been in perimenopause for like, I don’t know, close to 20 years, so I really, you know, didn’t love that.

Um, but the actual kind of completion of menopause, for me anyway, [00:25:00] I really, I love it. I love being here. I mean, I love the decisiveness through, with which I went through it. That suits me down to the ground. Like, yep, tick, definitely done. No questions. But- My brain feels so much happier- 

Elise Loehnen: Oh, good … 

Katherine May: out of this side of it.

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: My brain feels really at home. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: I just- 

Elise Loehnen: Amazing … 

Katherine May: just always wanted to be at the other, for l- you know, for the longest time, given my troublesome, my troublesome uterus, um, just yearned to be at the other side of that, and it hasn’t disappointed me. I feel, I feel different in the world, and you’re right.

You know, it’s a, it’s a huge rite of passage, and one that we don’t know fully how to honor, but- 

Elise Loehnen: No, and we medicalize it, and now in- Ugh … America, we sexualize it- Yeah … which to me is like- Oh, of course … really? 

Katherine May: Of 

Elise Loehnen: course. You know, it’s like still sexy, and I’m not talking about the symptoms of [00:26:00] vaginal dryness.

I’m talking about just this, like, quest for, for youth that has so many of us by the throat, and I am very excited to age. It’s such an honor. 

Katherine May: And- I mean, it’s interesting, the sexy thing- Yeah … because in a way, like, I find it easier to feel sexy post-menopause because, again, I’m not, I’m not worrying about getting pregnant.

I’m not worrying about looking youthful. You know? Like, I, I’m not, it takes, for me, I know, I know this isn’t true of, you know, uh, you can’t say anything’s true of all women anyway, but I know it’s not true for everybody, but- In a funny sort of a way, like it, it feels like it, it, uh, making an end to the reproductive years lets me reclaim my sexuality again a bit without the fear of all the stuff that- Yeah

could emerge from 

Elise Loehnen: it. Well, it’s, it’s like a, the whole, it’s not a procreative function anymore, right? Yeah, that’s right. Like, it [00:27:00] has no use or utility. Yeah. It’s just being in your body and enjoying being in your body- Yes … rather than being sort of an object of desire. Um- Yeah. 

Katherine May: Like, I don’t expect young men to find me attractive anymore- And would you 

Elise Loehnen: want them to?

Katherine May: and that’s great. 

Elise Loehnen: I find 

Katherine May: that- No, it was awful Yeah … when young men found me attractive. That was such a pain in the ass. They don’t leave you alone, and like now they don’t see me, and that’s amazing. 

Elise Loehnen: No more, no more young men dry humping your leg, Katherine. 

Katherine May: Oh, God. No more like, I mean, obviously for me, no more going to nightclubs full stop, but I remember going to a nightclub when I was like 18 and walking through and just, you know, every fifth man touching you in an inappropriate way because you’d, you were female and you’d passed.

And I just think, “Oh, God, they’re never gonna see me again.” I have this magnificent, like, dry skin invisibility cloak on now and, ugh, it’s so good. 

Elise Loehnen: [00:28:00] It’s so exciting. So 

Katherine May: good. 

Elise Loehnen: I think they should drop you into the Love Island villa as the next bombshell. 

Katherine May: Well, that would put a stop to a lot of shenanigans.

Let’s go together. I’d just stare at their face and be like, “Are you really doing that? Come on, seriously.” Again? 

Elise Loehnen: I secretly love that show. I find it so fascinating- … and, um, I find it transporting, where I’m like, “All right, you guys are… I could be your mother,” you know? Yeah. When the parents show up, I’m like, “Oh, right, these are my people, not you,” even though I’m wrapped up in Lorenzo- Oh

and Jasmine. I know all the, all the things, Katherine. 

Katherine May: I couldn’t watch it. It would just, it would just horrify me. I 

Elise Loehnen: just- I think you’d find it fascinating. 

Katherine May: Oh, I mean, uh, that’s the problem. It would horrify me and I wouldn’t be able to turn it off, and I’d get nothing done for like the next six 

Elise Loehnen: weeks.

Pirate, pirate village. Yeah. No. It’s, it’s an amazing watch. 

Katherine May: I think there should be- … a, a sort of sister program for like women our age just sitting- … making tea, maybe crocheting a little bit. Like, moisturizing a lot. [00:29:00] Like, I dunno. Just take, f- easing ourselves into really enormous swimming costumes- … and going for sedate swims with our heads up.

I’m here for that Some water aerobics That’s the

Elise Loehnen: kind of TV I’d watch. Yeah, water aerobics. Talking about books Yes, low impact. I think that’s a great show. I think that would be truly titillating. 

Katherine May: Oh, I would so watch it. Like, comparing scars. There could be a whole segment every week- … where a different person shows a really good scar they’ve got.

Elise Loehnen: Compares aches. Yeah. I think let’s pitch it. I think we can sell it. 

Katherine May: Let’s do it. Let’s do it, 

Elise Loehnen: yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Anyway, should we get on with the concept of this podcast? 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s talk about sloth. 

Katherine May: Oh, yeah. So I have to welcome you into my clearing in the woods, where I’m gonna encourage you to dream of the escape you’d love to make from life at the moment.

Mm. Um, and it can be as fantastical as you like it to be as well. So I [00:30:00] really- I hope there’ll be no holds barred. I know with you there probably won’t. This, it, it’s gonna get woo, isn’t it? Right? 

Elise Loehnen: Yes. It’s gonna get- Yeah … woo. Yeah. 

Katherine May: I’m looking forward to that. 

Elise Loehnen: I know. 

Katherine May: Okay. So tell me where in the world, or not in this world, we land for your dream getaway from all of this bullshit.

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. Well, it’s related to our conversation because the place that I go, and I go there frequently mentally, and then I try and get close to it physically, is, like, I am, uh, an old witch in the woods. You know? Mm. I’m in Montana. I’m in a cabin. It has no lawn. It just abuts the forest and the animals, and I live with the creatures.

And- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: I don’t really wear witchy stuff. I wear more, like, you know, flannel shirts, and, and- … Pendleton coats. You’re a lumberjack 

Katherine May: witch. 

Elise Loehnen: I’m a lumberjack witch. Like a sort of lumber witch. Yeah. [00:31:00] Yeah. But that I am probably in Montana where I grew up. Um, maybe I’m in Ireland. I don’t know. I travel. Mm. Um, my…

But, um- We, we can create- … I’m really- … 

Katherine May: Montana Ireland for you. Montana Ireland. Like, we can sort of mash them together. What would be the- Yeah … what would be the Montana bits, and what would be the Ireland bits though? 

Elise Loehnen: I just feel like I want forest, and I want verdant green. Mm. And I want, like, some Celtic shamanism in there for- Yes

fun. You know? Like, I want the- Yeah … the, the melding of those wisdom traditions. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Elise Loehnen: But I want to be, yeah, deeply, I’m sure that’s not an original answer, but deeply- 

Katherine May: It’s fine … 

Elise Loehnen: both alone and, and in the company of nature. Mm. 

Katherine May: And 

Elise Loehnen: I want visitors. You know, I want people to come to me for help, for guidance- See, oh w-

and mentorship. 

Katherine May: Interesting. Mm-hmm. So wait. Mm-hmm. So we have [00:32:00] this gingerbread, I’m, I’m imagining it’s made of gingerbread, but I- Yeah … but also metaphorically gingerbread cottage in the woods- Yeah … where you are a sort of lumber shaman. I’m not burning 

Elise Loehnen: children, but like- No … Hansel and Gretel style. That’s fair.

You know? Yeah. I’m not throwing anyone in the fire. Um- 

Katherine May: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think that’s a reasonable thing. Surrounded by your animal familiars. Yes. But people are coming to you for advice. Yes. Fascinating. Yeah, yeah, 

Elise Loehnen: yeah. 

Katherine May: Tell me about this. 

Elise Loehnen: I’m just a way point for, for people who are on their own version of, like, we can call it a hero or heroine’s journey.

Mm. Right? Who have, like- Mm … individuated and left home and are looking for themselves. Yeah. And more importantly, looking for the antidote or the- Mm … medicine to bring back to culture, to bring back and, and heal. And I wanna be, I wanna be that person that- That w- old woman in the woods who you stumble into her cottage, and I can help, and I can [00:33:00] nourish, and I can provide sort of the clue or- Mm

a guide post or a sign and send them on their way. And- I love 

Katherine May: this so much … 

Elise Loehnen: yeah. And that I get… Yeah, that I, I get some contact- Yeah … and I get to sort of be an advisor and, and serve in that capacity, but I’m largely, largely left alone. 

Katherine May: This is the ultimate menopausal dream, actually, is that just everybody leaves me alone, but actually every now and then they come for some advice- Yeah

and I get to hold forth because I know better than they do now. 

Elise Loehnen: Totally. And I, and my kids, who would be grown, come and visit. You know, I see my family. I’m not completely cut off. 

Katherine May: Yeah, that’s right. They come and see you sometimes, but not to the extent that you have to change their beds for them- Mm-hmm

and, like, cook 20 snacks a day. 

Elise Loehnen: And they come of their own volition, you know? 

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. Not at my bidding. Because they like you- Yeah … as a person as well as loving you as a mother. They need [00:34:00] me. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Katherine May: I wanna know what kind of, of witch in the woods you are, because are you like a sort of green witch who has, you know, uh, shelves of like medicinal tinctures that you’ve made yourself?

Elise Loehnen: Mm. 

Katherine May: Or are you more of a kind of Baba Yaga kind of witch? You know, does- Mm … your little hut have legs, chicken legs? 

Elise Loehnen: Mm. 

Katherine May: And I mean, Baba Yaga, what I love about her is that she, um, she, in, in… If you, if you look at all the different stories of Ba- Baba Yaga, she sometimes just straightforwardly punishes people.

Like, she just doesn’t, doesn’t try and teach them anything, but other times she teaches people a hard lesson- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: which I, I kind of love about. And, and some people, occasionally she meets someone she likes enough to just straightforwardly help, but that, that’s rare. So are you more the kind of medical witch, or are you gonna, are you a trickster?

Elise Loehnen: I’m not a, I’m not mixing tinctures. Mm. I am, I’m an, I am, I would say, more on the spectrum of the Baba Yaga. Like, I give people [00:35:00] hard truths so that- Yeah … they can come to their own realizations. Mm. Figure it out themselves. I’m not giving necessarily easy answers, but I am guiding them towards what they need to understand and know, which has to be, in some ways, one by themselves.

Like, they have to figure out the riddle. They have to figure it out. It’s not, it’s nothing if I give it to them. That’s 

Katherine May: great. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. Great. I’d say I’m like a therapist witch. I love that. You know? Yeah. I’m a hard truth, a radical candor witch, you know? Mm. Maybe I can, maybe I have… One of my, um, maybe one of my tricks is to do life review with people.

Um- Yes … and to confront them with sort of the, with themselves. That’s- Sort of like a sibyl 

Katherine May: in 

Elise Loehnen: her cave … that would be a fun, that would be a fun thing, right? 

Katherine May: Yeah, that would be amazing. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. But I’m not, like, doing flower essences or anything like that. 

Katherine May: No. No, that’s too lame for you. No, no. You just, it needs to be, it needs to be a bit meaner, actually- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah, 

Katherine May: yeah, yeah

to, to make it really fun. Like, [00:36:00] I mean, I can give someone a tincture, but- More confrontational. Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah, 

Katherine May: yeah. Confrontational. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: You gotta… If they don’t leave crying- Little tears … it hasn’t worked. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah, yeah. Loving tears. Yeah. 

Katherine May: I love this. Um, can I, can we talk about decor in your, in your witch’s hut?

Because- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: is it- I mean, I, now, now you said kind of therapist, I’m imagining that it’s like witch’s hut on the outside, but sort of New York therapist office on the inside. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. I think it’s so cozy. It’s couches, it’s bookshelves. I mean, I know I’m supposed to limit potentially, like, the books that I get to bring, but no chance, right?

Yeah. So it’s just like a wisdom library. It’s floor-to-ceiling books. Books on every table. Um, books primarily as, as my decor and, but it’s cozy and warm, and there are lots of blankies and pillows, and pets. Pets. 

Katherine May: Tell me about- You know … the pets. W- who, what have you- Well … what have [00:37:00] you got stocked in there?

Okay. Stocked, living with 

Elise Loehnen: you. I mean, honestly, I love every type of animal, and I’ve- 

Katherine May: Of course … 

Elise Loehnen: throughout my life owned many. I’ve never had a snake, but I do not have- Mm … a snake aversion. Right. So what I would, I would only be limited by wanting my animals not to want to eat my other animals, so- 

Katherine May: Yeah, that’s, 

Elise Loehnen: that gets tricky with multiple

no cats and mice. Yeah. Yeah. No birds and cats. I definitely need to have some cats. I would like to have some dogs. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Elise Loehnen: Um, you know, like a, an animal rescue almost. Like, it could be that animals come to me, they re- they recover, and then when people come looking for advice, they also take a- They 

Katherine May: get a cat

Elise Loehnen: they take an animal. Yeah. 

Katherine May: They get a really raggedy cat, like, “Here you go.” 

Elise Loehnen: They get a rescue. I like this evolving dream. Animal rescue. 

Katherine May: Well, this is– I mean, this could work, right? Because also the animal is part of the solution. Like, one of the things that will definitely help you is to get a cat. You’ll feel better.

Elise Loehnen: You’ll 

Katherine May: feel better. Like- As long as you’re not allergic, obviously … 

Elise Loehnen: the unconditional love of a [00:38:00] dog. Yeah. Mm. And I obviously am gonna have horses, Katherine. 

Katherine May: Yes. So. I was about to ask. Well, yeah, horses. 

Elise Loehnen: Yes, horses. 

Katherine May: How many? What kind? 

Elise Loehnen: Um, I would have… So I grew up riding Arabians. Now when I ride it’s more sort of quarter horses and paints and, um, of that type of variety.

I’m not that particular. I would say not a Thoroughbred. Um, I don’t need a racehorse. Any horse will do. Any horse will do. Um, and I would want a small herd so that they’re not alone. So let’s say, like, five because I like odd numbers. Um, and, and then I could sort of ride each one one day a week and take two days off.

So they’d get some exercise. Yeah, yeah. Wouldn’t that be good? Well, I’d go looking for- You’d exercise, they’d get exercise … looking for my animals to rescue in the, in the woods. 

Katherine May: Yes. 

Elise Loehnen: Listening for birds that may have fallen out of- A good story … trees, out of nests. 

Katherine May: Animal hospital. Can you tell me, I really, I really wanna [00:39:00] know more about the horses, because you clearly have, like, a really profound love of horses.

And I’ve never- Yes … I’ve never had the opportunity to spend much time with them. You know, if one passes me in the street, as happens sometimes in England, I don’t think happens so much in America maybe, but, um, you know, I’ll always stop and say hello to them, and they seem like magnificent creatures. But what is that?

Because people who know horses are horse people through and through. Like, it seems to- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: take residence in you in a really powerful way. Like, what is that relationship between person- Yeah … and horse? 

Elise Loehnen: I think it’s early exposure, um, because I think that for many there’s, they can be very scary, and I think it’s one of those things- Well, they’re huge

like if you, yeah, they’re huge. Mm-hmm. And falling off of them is not fun. Except when you’re young, it’s not a big deal. You just bounce then- You 

Katherine May: just roll … pretty much. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. Yeah. Get back up. Um, so I grew up with horses, which w- was amazing. I grew up riding. I had horses at my house in Montana- Yeah … and would go up into the [00:40:00] woods with my brother, and then did this, it’s a hilarious but amazing sport com- Yeah

called competitive, it’s called endurance riding. It’s like marathoning- Okay … on horseback where you do these, you train and train and train and train and condition and do these- Wow … 50-mile rides. Um- 

Katherine May: Wow … 

Elise Loehnen: and there are all these vet checks, and it’s technical, and you’re feeding your horse- Mm-hmm

electrolytes and, like, specific bran and, um, but that’s what- Really? … I grew up doing. And now I ride western. And, um, but, and I go home to do it, to Montana, and there’s just this, like- You know, when I was young, that book movie came out, The Horse Whisperer. Okay. And I just felt that way. Like, my horse… I grew up- Mm, 

Katherine May: mm-hmm

Elise Loehnen: in the woods with an older brother, who is a book editor, and I’m an author, and it’s because we grew up with books, horses, solitude, no cable TV, right? So, I… And in the middle of no, no [00:41:00] fri- in the middle of nowhere. Just sounds lovely. I mean, my, I, we went to school and had friends. It was amazing. Mm. But it was a lot of time alone, a lot of time with books, and a lot of time with horses.

And so I would just spend my day out in the pasture reading, braiding my horse’s hair, thinking I could talk to my horse. Maybe I can. Maybe 

Katherine May: you can. 

Elise Loehnen: Um, but I, I think that that’s where it comes from for me, and I think that my horses taught me about energy, since they are, they’re a fear animal, they’re prey, and they are incredibly sensitive.

And so it was my first experience where I was like, “How I feel impacts how this creature feels,” so if I’m scared, they’re s- Mm … scared. 

Katherine May: Yeah, 

Elise Loehnen: yeah. They’re, they’re picking up from me that there’s a threat. And that was, I think, a really valuable teaching in terms of just understanding awareness. 

Katherine May: Mm, mm. 

Elise Loehnen: And, and then it’s funny because, and, and this aligns with [00:42:00] this idea of rest too, because I so identified with horses, and they became sort of my totem.

And I have tons of horse jewelry, and just this like- … I am a horse. Yeah. And I internalized that in very productive ways, and then in ways that I’ve come to understand, like, my horse needs a higher master- Mm … that sometimes is missing, because, um, I am a workhorse. ‘Cause 

Katherine May: you, ’cause you drive yourself, essentially.

Yeah. Like, you, you’re in control 

Elise Loehnen: of everything. I have a ton of… Yeah. Yeah. I have a ton of horsepower. I have a ton of energy. Mm-hmm. And, and I’m also easy to conscript into other people’s projects, like, I’m easy to bridle- … and sort of, like, put under saddle, and, like, I will go until I drop. Right. And I do this to myself, and I do it for other people, and it wasn’t…

It was an awareness only five years ago or so where I was like, “I have this horse qi energy-” Mm … a huge amount of [00:43:00] energy. I’m a manifesting generator, if you know human design. And, but I am a fear animal most of the time. Right. And if I get scared or I encounter scarcity or people’s expectations, my instinct is to run- Okay

and to go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And even in the surgery- It’s a long woo-woo ass story, Katherine, but, um- 

Katherine May: Let’s do it … 

Elise Loehnen: I had- 

Katherine May: Let’s do 

Elise Loehnen: it … back when- That’s what we’re here for. All right. So I had spoken to this healer years ago who was like, “I know you had…” You know, was li- was like, “Do you know what your animal totem is?”

And I was like, “It’s a horse. It’s a horse.” And she was like- You, you knew that, 

Katherine May: like, right out. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And she was like, “Mm, you have a panther. You also have a panther.” Oh. “And a black panther.” And I was like, “Huh.” I mean, I’m obs- I have four cats. I’m obsessed with cats. Yeah. But she was like, “You have a black panther, and you need to pay more attention to your panther.”

I’m wearing my black panther necklace. 

Katherine May: Ah, lovely. 

Elise Loehnen: And over time, like, that sort [00:44:00] of, um- sat with me as what is this panther? Yeah. And I’ve come to understand that these are my two totems, and that, one, this panther, when I cede it power and let it rule- Mm-hmm … is sort of the source of my discernment and my judgment, my connection to sort of the, the vert- the vertical, to creativity, to the universe.

And if I let it guide me, it will show me where to go, and more importantly- Mm … when to go. Yeah. If I can just sort of keep my horse contained, the panther is not scared. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: The panther- The panther is not prey … knows when to act. It ha- Yeah … is not prey. Mm-hmm. And so even in the course of getting through this mastectomy and needing to take a break, which was very scary to me, ’cause I was like- Mm

“What about all my Substack people who pay me to write?” Yeah, yeah. And, um, I had [00:45:00] to lean… I was like, I, it is panther time. And- 

Katherine May: The hut in the woods feels very panther, actually. Yes. You know? It’s, it’s sort of solitary. Yes. It’s self-contained. It’s self-sustaining. How did you come to feel about pausing your Substack for a while and, and taking that time for yourself?

Like, how- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: how did you process that, and how did it land in you? 

Elise Loehnen: I mean, it was, what was fascinating is you are told that you have cancer, and the- Mm-hmm … automatic reaction is theoretically fear. I felt no fear- Yeah … about the cancer, in part ’cause I was like, “This cancer is, I know it’s not gonna kill me.

It’s, um- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: contained, non-invasive. I’m very lucky.” Also, I will just say, like, the treatments that we have now are radical- are amazing- Yeah … very personal, and are just improving all the time, and modern medicine is amazing. So- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: anyway, so I didn’t have that fear. But all of my fear was located in this idea of productivity.

And- Mm … and the way that [00:46:00] I, and I bet, I, I mean, you can relate in some ways ’cause you wrote a whole book about it. But- Yeah … my react- my feeling about work and creativity isn’t, “Okay, let me curate my garden. Let me pull up this part of the garden and plant something else and nurture it.” Yeah. My approach to my box is like, “There’s a tiny corner, so I’m gonna plant something else,” and then suddenly-

I have this overgrown, like- 

Katherine May: Yeah, panic-inducing- Dis- … garden. 

Elise Loehnen: Disaster … like 

Katherine May: Day of the 

Elise Loehnen: Triffids. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: And I’m- Yeah … the only landscaper on, on my payroll. So- Yeah, 

Katherine May: yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: um, so as I came sort of careening into this diagnosis this spring, I was like, “I have done it again,” where my instinct isn’t like, “I’m gonna stop this so I can start this.”

Mm. My instinct is more, more, more, more. I’ll never have enough. I’ll never be doing enough. It’s just- Yeah … it catches me by the throat. And so- The [00:47:00] big fear was like, what am I gonna… You know, I consult, I write, I host a podcast. Mm-hmm. Like, I’ll die if I don’t keep producing at the same rate. Yeah. And so that was what I had to grapple with, and, and I had this like- Creatives are so fear-driven

I have 

Katherine May: to take a break. You know, the system that we come up in shows us over and over again that we have to stay relevant, we have to stay at the front of people’s minds, we’ve got to keep making, because if you stop making, you lose the ability to make. You know, like it’s harder to get back on top. Like, there’s so much fear there.

So 

Elise Loehnen: much fear. 

Katherine May: But, but nevertheless- And- … you came to the point where you obviously thought, “I, I need this pause.” 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. Well, I realized, in the same way that during COVID, um, I was like, “Oh, my God, I would love to get COVID so I can just be in bed.” When you’re like, “That is a messed up thought process”- It’s, it’s how 

Katherine May: we think, yeah

that 

Elise Loehnen: I started recognizing like, “Oh, my God, [00:48:00] I, I’m… I can’t wait to have surgery- Mm … so that I can’t do anything.” Is that worse? I’m like, “That’s a sign that I am way… My horse is out of control.” So- 

Katherine May: That is a sign … 

Elise Loehnen: I mandate, I was like, “This is gonna be a real… I need to stay with my fear and anxiety. I’m gonna- Mm

announce a sabbatical on Substack and see what happens, and maybe everyone will abandon me. And if they abandon me, then they weren’t mine to begin with.” Yeah. And even as you’re saying this- Yeah … you’re like, “This is insane.” In the same way that people would… I have to wonder sometimes, I’m like, “Maybe it would make my books more powerful if I weren’t so available to everyone all the time,” right?

If they weren’t like- Oh … “I’m tired of reading you.” I’ve thought a lot about this. Um, “I read you all the time.” 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: So. 

Katherine May: I, like the idea- Yeah … of mystique, I think is, I’m trying to learn mystique. Like, I’m not someone who naturally has a whole load of mystique, because I’m always like, “Hi, everyone. How are you?

What can I do to help you?” You know, like- Yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: I’m trying to learn to 

Katherine May: foster a bit- Let me tell you all my thoughts. Yeah … 

Elise Loehnen: yeah, 

Katherine May: let me tell you all my thoughts and feelings, and then- Yeah … [00:49:00] please tell me yours. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: I’m like a human bucket if I’m left to my own devices. Yeah. And- Meanwhile, 

Elise Loehnen: yeah, it’s like 

Katherine May: maybe people can miss us

I’m trying to learn to foster mystique. Yeah. Yes. Like, what if, yeah, what if people got the opportunity to miss me occasionally? What if people didn’t know how I felt about every passing moment? Yeah. Terrifying. No. But yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: It’s true. Mm. And so- It’s true … I, and, and I got… What was amazing is that I announced on my podcast that I was, would be taking a sabbatical.

And something technically happened where it did- didn’t, nobody heard it. Like, it, I don’t know, I still don’t understand what happened. But I was like- Wow … “Okay, universe, well played.” Yeah. That’s hi- hilarious. Yeah. That I was- 10 out of 10 … hoping for this confirmation from people to be like, “We won’t forget about you.”

Yeah. But meanwhile, like, nobody heard it, nobody cared, and I was like, “Oh my God.” But that gave me an opportunity to sit with my anxiety. And, um, and it’s been amazing. And while I was on [00:50:00] sabbatical, this, he’s a Brit, this, he’s a fascinating guy. He’s named Patrick Connor, and he leads retreats, and he does these light baths, which you can listen to on his website.

It’s called Sharmata, and he’s like a, he’s an teacher. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Elise Loehnen: More in sort of the spiritual stuff that I’m interested in. 

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. 

Elise Loehnen: And he happened to be in LA, and he came over and he sat with me. And well, it was probably one week out post-op, and he was like, we were chatting about the universe and trickster archetypes and mythology and mysticism, and then he, you know, he was like, “Tell me about your, what’s happening with you physically, and, like, what’s in the karmic storehouse?”

And, um, I was like, “You know, Patrick, I’m really lucky because my cancer is dumb and slow,” and then I went on and on and on. And he was like, “Okay, I just wanna, like, come back to you.” He sort of talks to your s- subconscious. And he was telling me all the things that I said that I hate, um, including sort of…[00:51:00] 

That’s a whole nother thing. But he was like, I- he was like, “You called your cancer dumb and slow, and what if your cancer is inviting you to be dumb and slow, um, instead of quick and, and brilliant?” 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Elise Loehnen: And we started talking about that, and I was like, “Well, what’s so interesting too is the helplessness that I feel as a creative in the face of AI and as someone who creates all this content.”

And I just in the last week, like, seen two people turn on daily newsletters which are clearly written with the help- Ugh … of AI, and it’s just too much. Why are people so exhausting? Exhausting. But also I’m like, it, uh, it creates exhaustion for everyone, and it means that people- 

Katherine May: For readers … 

Elise Loehnen: have less energy for, for us.

Yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. And I was like, you know, for so, my whole life- My productivity has been a virtue, and my ability- Mm … to create things at a really high quality and capacity has been my calling card. And he was like- Yeah … “Well, that’s where I think that you’re mistaken. That [00:52:00] might be what you think. I don’t think that’s how people hold you.”

And I was like, “Well- 

Katherine May: No, I 

Elise Loehnen: wouldn’t … I’ve always been a robot.” 

Katherine May: I mean, I, I wouldn’t have an opinion on whether you’re productive. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I, it wouldn’t occur to me to know that. It’s- 

Elise Loehnen: But it’s how- 

Katherine May: It’s the stuff you talk about and the way you talk about it that’s interesting. Thank 

Elise Loehnen: you.

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: But that’s what I’ve staked my person- you know, I’ve sort of staked my personality- Yeah … on, and, and I’m like, “I just can’t out-robot the robots.” And he’s like- Right … “I think you’re being invited to be dumb and slow.” And- Mm. So it’s been really Kind of a deep process for me to actually think about that, and to think- So important

okay, information is no longer a scarce commodity. It used to be- Yeah … when we were kids and we were relying on- Yeah … Encyclopedia Britannica and going to 

Katherine May: the library. And we were praised for doing things fast, remembering things, remembering a lot- Yeah … of things, holding them in our head. 

Elise Loehnen: Totally. 

Katherine May: Being able to access and s- spew out information.

Elise Loehnen: Synthesize. 

Katherine May: Being- Yeah … [00:53:00] available. Like, the computer’s have been able to do that stuff for ages. That, that, turns out that was not what was valuable about us, but that’s what we would- No … yeah. I’m sure- That’s what we were raised on … I’m sure we’re both trained into the same stuff, yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: And so it’s been amazing to take a break right now, and I’m working on my next book, so I haven’t been completely absent from thinking, even though I’ve been watching a lot of Love Island UK, but it’s, it’s relevant.

Um- It’s 

Katherine May: nice to know that we offer something to the rest of the world, you know? 

Elise Loehnen: But it’s, it’s been an opportunity to, to think about sort of like, what am I creating and what do people need right now? 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Elise Loehnen: And, um- Yeah … what makes sense, what feels sustainable, what would feel good. 

Katherine May: What feels human. 

Elise Loehnen: Mm-hmm. 

Katherine May: And what feels animal.

Elise Loehnen: Exactly. And what is fear? What is me being spooked and suddenly jumping into action and just like, “I’ll just power through this,” versus, “Take a deep breath. [00:54:00] Think about the panther. What do I want here? What is needed here?” Um, and can I make a decision from that place? I know I have the energy to do whatever I set out to do, and I don’t quit.

Mm. So let’s be wise about what I’m planting in the garden. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: I’m mixing a lot of- I love that … metaphors here for you. It’s 

Katherine May: fine. No, no, no. It all- … it all actually centers on the kind of, you know, witch’s cottage, so it actually works. You know, it has a garden, it has animals. It’s fine. There’s probably a panther somewhere- There’s a pan.

Yeah … like in the, in the hills, you know, like stalking around. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I relate to that so strongly. You know, the same fears about AI. Like, who, who am I if AI exists almost? And you see, I mean, so many other writers immediately adopt it, either secretly or overtly, because they want to create content rather than think.

Yeah. And that really shocks me. Like that, because for me, that would just be [00:55:00] pointless. Like, I would, I would get no joy from that process and no satisfaction. Like, the process of writing is the process of thinking for me, and so why would I take away- 

Elise Loehnen: 100% … 

Katherine May: the, the thinking? But- 

Elise Loehnen: Well, and I think- Yeah … yeah.

In my experience with AI, because I, I do some consulting where AI is, is- Used, and I’ve, like, made myself use it, um, just to understand it. Um, and there are certain things I’m like, “This is amazing.” It can take a 500-word bio and condense it to 200 words for me, and it does, like, a good enough job. Or it will- Wow

uh, constr- give me the logic tree for a survey, for example, so that I’m not- Mm … like, having to- Doing it … it just saves time in that sense. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: But what it doesn’t do is replace thinking. And so when I work- Mm-hmm … with young people in particular, I’m like, “Guys, you have to understand how to query this tool in order to get something [00:56:00] usable.

Then you have to fact-check it because it’s mostly using- Yeah … really weird sources like Reddit- Yeah. Yeah … and sounding polished and sophisticated and smart, but read this, and do you think that this is true? And does this actually map to the data?” Mm-hmm. So I find it largely, um, sometimes amazing, but- Yeah

largely, uh, wrong, and… Or, or largely, um… It just dep- it depends on its application. Untrustworthy, 

Katherine May: basically. But- Like, you 

Elise Loehnen: can’t- Yeah, untrustworthy … you 

Katherine May: can’t rely on it. Unreliable. 

Elise Loehnen: No, it just- Yeah … looks, it sounds, at first glance, it looks very professional. But- Yeah … people desperately need to learn how to think, right?

To think for themselves, to process. 

Katherine May: And, and to learn the joy of that. Yeah. Like, the joy of being in uncertain thought processes and in exploring ideas and the kind of play that’s inherent to that. Mm. I find it- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: like, I just find it so sad that people want to [00:57:00] bracket that and just produce a thing at the end.

Like, it just makes… It makes no sense to me at all. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. Well, it’s also, as you know, and as you, as you… When you write books, and you go out in the world and you talk about them, people don’t remember stats. They might remember, um, some concrete tools or actionable advice maybe. Maybe. But what people remember and how we learn is through story, and AI can’t write stories.

It can’t really tell jokes. It, um, lacks- I mean, it’s just not human. So it’s like a functional tool for certain things that you can ask it to do faster for you, but it doesn’t… It’s- Mm. We’re amazing. I, um- 

Katherine May: We are absolutely amazing. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: I think what people remember from my books, and what I remember from other people’s books, is my response.

Yeah. They rem- they bring their response to you. When they talk to you about your book, they talk to you about [00:58:00] their response. Like, it, the book… Except for a very few people who have this encyclopedic knowledge of what you’ve written, and normally more than I do, because actually I sort of digest it in the process of writing as well, and I’m never sure what thoughts ended up in there and what thoughts didn’t, because- 100%.

I’m always like- I just, I just know the process … “Oh, that was in there?” “Was that in 

Elise Loehnen: there? 

Katherine May: Oh, God, I thought… Oh, okay.” But they will tell you their response. That’s the memorable thing. And so, like, I was at a party a few years, a couple of years ago, and, um, this woman said, “Oh, you wrote that amazing book about divorce.”

And I was like, “Oh, I don’t think that’s me.” She said, “No, no. You wrote that book called Wintring and it was about divorcing your husband.” I was like, “It was not about divorcing my husband.” That’s 

Elise Loehnen: amazing. 

Katherine May: I was like, “Have you divorced your husband?” She was like, “Yeah, that’s why I read it.” I was like, there was, there was no divorce going on in that book at all You’re 

Elise Loehnen: like, “That’s called projection, babe.

But I’m glad you found 

Katherine May: yourself-” Fascinating … “

Elise Loehnen: in my 

Katherine May: story.” But that’s, but she was like- Yeah … “But it helped [00:59:00] me so much when I was going through my divorce.” I was like, “That’s, that, that’s amazing. But-” Yeah … um, but you did that. Like, you, you as a reader are co-constructing the book, and that’s- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: that was your part of it.

I loved it. Yeah. I thought it was really … I mean, she was mortified, and I was delighted. I know, it’s perfect. I was like, “But just to be clear, we’re still married.” 

Elise Loehnen: I love him very much. 

Katherine May: I love him very much. Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: I know, it’s funny. After I did announce that I was taking the sabbatical, and I wa- I didn’t, I didn’t say why be- at that point.

I’ve n- since released an episode about the whole process, but I didn’t want concern or people’s opinions. But, um- Yeah. It can 

Katherine May: be too much, 

Elise Loehnen: can’t it? … friends would, like, text me, and they’d be like, “Where, I’m getting … Are you getting a divorce?” I’m like, “I love that that’s where people go.” Wow, that’s where you go.

“No, I’m definitely not getting a divorce.” 

Katherine May: Yeah, no, that’s a you thing that you think is 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah 

Katherine May: But it does, it does happen a lot, doesn’t it? Particularly people who, um, seem to rely on, like, how amazing their husband is in their socials, and then a week later you hear about the [01:00:00] divorce, and you’re like- 

Elise Loehnen: Well- 

Katherine May: I don’t 

Elise Loehnen: understand people

you know that there’s a correlation, right? Yeah, that’s, I think so, yeah There’s research that the more you post, sort of the flimsier your relationship is in reality. 

Katherine May: Wow. Yeah. Oh, well I’m quite glad that I hide mine from sight then. Hot 

Elise Loehnen: take, yeah. Exactly. I’m like, it doesn’t occur to me to post him, but it, ’cause I don’t wanna violate his privacy.

But I also, um- 

Katherine May: Because, yeah, I don’t- Yeah … I mean, he doesn’t need to put up with the stuff that I have to put up with when I’m, like, you know, walking down the high street and someone stops and talks to me. And I’m like, “Who are you? What’s happening? I was just thinking about my shopping.” 

Elise Loehnen: What about your menopausal invisibility cloak?

Katherine May: Yes. You can use that. I know. We … I was- I was walking down my own street the other day, and because I’m face blind, if I see someone else walking down my street, I say hello to them in case they’re a neighbor. Because otherwise I’m blanking my neighbors all the time. And so my strategy is just, if you’re on my street, I’m gonna say hi to you in a really warm way as if I know you, just in case.

Um, that’s probably- Yeah … giving too much away, but there we go. Um, so I, this guy walks past. I’m like, “Hi.” And, uh, and he was like, “Oh, [01:01:00] hi. It’s so interesting to meet you ’cause my wife’s a massive fan of your work.” And I was like, “Oh, no. I’ve accidentally started a really awkward conversation.” 

Elise Loehnen: I 

Katherine May: have, um- “And we’re here on holiday, and maybe you could co-…”

And I was like, “Oh, I’m so sorry.” He’s just, 

Elise Loehnen: he’s like, “Can you do a one-on-one book club with my wife?” 

Katherine May: Um- It was sort of like, “Oh, I’ve said hello to someone that’s keen to meet me.” Which, you know- I have- … other, other more generous souls would be delighted by that. But I was, like, curling up inside. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. I enjoy anonymity.

It’s good to live in LA because- Not that it’s not a reading town, it is, but there are just way more, way more famous people- There’s such famous people available, yeah … in the room, so I’m irrelevant all the time. Good. Yeah, yeah. 

Katherine May: Right. I need to remember this podcast format because I keep forgetting to ask you the actual questions.

But I need to ask you, is there it’s too interesting. Is there a work of art or, you know, defining art broadly- Mm … that you would bring or keep with you in your cottage? ‘Cause your cottage feels more [01:02:00] permanent. It doesn’t feel like you’re just traveling there occasionally. Mm-hmm. It feels like a new, a whole new life that you’re developing.

But is there something- And the price is I 

Elise Loehnen: can 

Katherine May: have anything? … from art and culture. You can have anything. I mean- You don’t have to be able to afford it … 

Elise Loehnen: okay, perfect. I mean, I would love a few Rothkos. 

Katherine May: Oh, sure. Just 

Elise Loehnen: a few. Just 

Katherine May: a few. 

Elise Loehnen: Like, th- three Rothkos. I would like an, an Anne Truitt sculpture. I would like, yeah, some just modern masterpieces on which I can just fix my gaze and, 

Katherine May: you 

Elise Loehnen: know.

Katherine May: Mune with. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. And not necessarily- Yeah … no, you know? Not, not nothing figural. 

Katherine May: It’s, I mean- Some sort of- … something like a Rothko- Yeah … really wants you to spend time with it and- Yeah … like absorb it through your skin almost. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. I want atmosphere more than I want, um, like something c- representational or cognitive.

‘Cause you know I have a lot of books, Katherine, so those do that. Yeah. But I want, I want sort of like- Art in [01:03:00] that way 

Katherine May: Yes 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah 

Katherine May: I think, I think that would be incredible to just have a, an incredible painting, like a really extraordinary painting, and to be able to spend time with it day after day, to see it change in the light, to kind of ex- Yeah

you’d encounter it differently every single day. I think that would just be amazing 

Elise Loehnen: I also, I mean, because I’m a witch, I’d need like a, a Hilma af Klint piece two or, or maybe three, you know? 

Katherine May: Do you know the, um, do you know the Cornish artist Ithel Colquhoun? Have you come across- No … her? Okay. 

Elise Loehnen: No. 

Katherine May: I- Yeah

I’ve, you will love her. Okay, great Um, I’ve probably said her surname wrong. Um, but, uh- I mispronounce everything So she was … Yeah, me too. So. I’ve just- Yeah … I’m just owning it now. She’s a, a Co- a sort of Cornish surrealist who wrote a series of mystical memoirs about, um, her relationship with like standing stones and the kind of Cornish landscape and the Irish landscape.

[01:04:00] Cornish artist. She also- Okay … created her own tarot deck that was purely based on color, um, and that was aimed at kind of a, a meditation on the tarot rather than a more literal translation. I think she’s so far up your street. Say 

Elise Loehnen: her name. Do you do show notes? You’re gonna have to put her in the, the- 

Katherine May: Yes, we will absolutely have her in the show notes.

There’s a, um, there’s a UK independent press called The Fulgor Press that republished her, um, tarot deck a couple of years ago, and I do have a copy of it, and it’s, um, it’s like, it’s immersive rather than you can’t do a straight reading of it. You have to kind of immerse in it. It’s really beautiful. I love 

Elise Loehnen: he- hearing you say that you have a tarot deck.

This is very exciting. I love, I love- I have about- … this evolution … 

Katherine May: 20 tarot decks. 

Elise Loehnen: Really? 

Katherine May: Yeah 

Elise Loehnen: Who’s woo now? 

Katherine May: I know. You’ve all ruined me. 

Elise Loehnen: I love it. 

Katherine May: But no, it’s a really, it’s a really special one. [01:05:00] Anyway, sorry, I’m not supposed to give you, uh, art for your- No, 

Elise Loehnen: no, no, no. This is- But I really- I, I like co- co-designing this with you.

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Elise Loehnen: Really exciting. I think you would love that. We should… They should let us, we should be able to design this as a real space. 

Katherine May: Mm. Wouldn’t that be amazing? 

Elise Loehnen: Yes. 

Katherine May: And then we could, I would sit in it with you and dispense advice really happily. I mean, we could sit side by 

Elise Loehnen: side and- Let’s do a museum show.

Yeah, and have people design their, uh, their witches hats … 

Katherine May: world’s most evil agony aunts. Right. Listen, it’s time for you to leave your little hut for a while. Um, I’m so, so sorry. Um, how do you know when it’s time to leave this hut? Would you ever leave it, actually, in this scenario? Would you ever go away from this, or is this a place that you just want to be for the, you know, the last third of your life?

Elise Loehnen: I would, I would want to venture. I would just feel the stir, and I would know I needed to go. And I, you know, I go back to my childhood. I went to boarding school, and we lived [01:06:00] outside of town, and I would come quote, unquote, “home” to town, and I would go to our house, and then I would just, like, not want to leave.

Um- Mm … and then I would get a stirring, like, “I want a copy of the Sunday New York Times,” or, “I want a latte.” Um, and then I would want a trip into town, like a- Mm … Laura Ingalls Wilder novel. Um- So I think that I- You’d put on your bonnet … I’d put on my bonnet. Yeah. I’d put on my ball cap. Mm. And, um, yeah, no, I would ha- I would want to occasionally go and mix and mingle and see what’s going on and see what’s happening in the culture.

Yeah. But I would like to be mostly removed, um, and operating sort of outside of typical time. 

Katherine May: Makes lots of sense. 

Elise Loehnen: Mm. And- And I would want to choose. I would want to feel intuitively like it’s time to go and mix it up a tiny bit. 

Katherine May: It’s a lovely feeling. I love the idea- Yeah … of a stirring. I think that really, I really relate to that.

And if there, i- [01:07:00] if there was an item you could take back into town with you from your cottage, what would it be?

Elise Loehnen: Journal. I’m not a journaler, but I would, I like to write things, I like to write things down, like notes, um, words, like, that I wanna understand the etymology, or flashes, or I’m sort of would be lost. Right now I will, like, text myself things, and I have stacks and stacks and stacks of index cards everywhere because- Do- are you 

Katherine May: index card?

I love 

Elise Loehnen: an index card … I’m an index card person. Um, and I make lists in numerous places. I like a physical planner. Um, and I, I, I don’t know. I just, there’s a, I, I need to record. I need to annotate, and I need to collect in that way. So I would feel really unmoored if I had no way of do- if I didn’t have a pen and a, a- 

Katherine May: Mm

Elise Loehnen: I need some paper. I need a- Lovely … I need a container. Not for [01:08:00] big thoughts. And you can bring those 

Katherine May: thoughts back- 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah … 

Katherine May: out of the forest into- Yes … the big, wide- 

Elise Loehnen: Just to 

Katherine May: catch … forgetful world. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like my little colander. I’d be fine- Love it … without a phone. Like, I don’t need any of that, I say right now, but.

Katherine May: Just a big notebook. 

Elise Loehnen: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Elise, thank you so much for this incredible conversation. I’ve enjoyed it so much. 

Elise Loehnen: Oh, likewise.

Hello. 

Katherine May: Wasn’t that great? I, uh, I’m still on my march to the chemist. Uh, I actually took the long way round so I could talk to you, but I took too much of a long way around, and now I’m in the middle of a housing estate. But, you know, interesting to have a stare at everything. Nice to see lots of sunflowers in people’s front gardens.

Listen, didn’t that tap in to something profound about being a [01:09:00] mature adult and the desire to give advice? I just… She’s just nailed it. She just nailed it. I just want to sit people down and to tell them stuff. I just want them to listen. I mean, you’d think being a writer, I get to do that all the time, and I kind of do.

But what I loved about Elise’s sort of witchy cottage vision and why it has to stay a fantasy is that, in truth, I just wanna tell people stuff and them not to reply. I just wanna be like, “Look, I, you know, I don’t care how mean this is, but this is what you need to do.” And in everyday life, I know better than that.

I know that you’ve gotta catch flies in a bit of sugar. I know that, you know, people have opinions about their own life and agency, devastatingly. Um, but yeah, the fantasy. The fantasy of being the old woman in the cottage, the wild [01:10:00] woman, and people coming to you for your slightly bitter edged advice. Oh, it used to be that you hope someone would give you that advice and explain life to you, and now you just wanna explain it to people and make them listen.

And in that fantasy, they do. They do listen, and they act on it. Oh, imagine. Anyway, look, please do check out Elise’s work if you have not already. She’s wonderful, and I suspect that she will- continue to have even more overflowing bottles of wisdom for us now that she’s been through this really life-changing moment.

And I, for one, am going to be glued because she’s gonna have some good stuff to say. Right. I’m nearly at the pharmacy. [01:11:00] I’m gonna go and eat humble pie about not collecting my prescriptions, but you all take care. I really hope you enjoy this season. I’ve been working on it all summer, and we’re all so excited to offer it to you.

And I have a, uh, mini break for you to listen to straight after this, if you like, for paid subscribers, uh, which, uh, they’re a joy. They’re a joy. This phase of my life is all about finding joy, and I’m offering you two joys today. You take really good care of yourself, all right? And I’ll see you soon. Bye.