Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello. It’s Katherine here, back in South West London on one of my meanders to a hospital.

Today I’m in somewhere a little more post-industrial, I’d say. There are some scars of old buildings on the ground and the characteristic blackberry brambles growing all over them There’s also beautiful dog roses crawling over everything else I feel like I’m in a Brambly Hedge book. But there’s pylons too.

And somewhere nearby someone playing loud [00:01:00] music that’s going doof, doof, doof, doof And the screaming of children in a playground Which can sound so alarming until you put it in context But there’s birdsong, and the air is warm but breezy, which is lovely. And I’ve got my feet on the ground walking which in itself is a delight

You really do feel very close to high summer now

The green is setting in, getting darker

And the scent has changed in the air It’s perfumed. It’s really delicious, I have to say[00:02:00] 

Well, it’s good to describe plants in a moment before we talk to this week’s Clearing guest, Alice Vincent. You may know Alice from her books, which include Root Bound, Why Women Grow, which are both about growing things in one way or another. I’m about to go under an underpass, so things are gonna get echoey, and the doof, doof, doof music is getting closer.

Her most recent book is Hark, which came out last year. It sounds like I’m walking into a disco probably to you. I promise I’m not. I promise this is very wholesome. Sorry, but Hark, fantastically good book, all about women’s relationship to [00:03:00] sound and framed by the way that Alice’s hearing and the way she perceived sound changed in early motherhood.

Wow, I couldn’t be walking past a more appropriate place to mention this, because some sounds for Alice became difficult and painful and extremely annoying, and I can’t imagine why that would be. I probably can’t even broadcast this bit. It probably breaches copyright somehow. We’ll just have to hope that nobody notices

And there’s a train going past

I think when you’re autistic… Hello, doggy. I’m being greeted by a husky. Hello. I think when you’re autistic, you notice the intrusion of sound an awful lot, and I think for other people, it only comes [00:04:00] up at times of stress or change But it is fascinating to tune in, as you do when you’re trying to record a podcast intro, to the soundscape around you and to notice what’s disrupting it, what’s painful, what’s harsh, and what’s beautiful.

Because as I’m talking, the bird song’s rising again Alice also writes regularly in The Guardian and other newspapers and magazines about gardening, and she has a lovely Substack called Savor, which really is about the finer things in life. And I think that is the theme of Alice’s retreat. It’s a really sociable one, but in a delightful way.

I get the sense that Alice is a magnificent hostess, [00:05:00] and I now want to eat one of her pink salads, please. I’ll hand you over to her before any more noise starts again, but I’ll see you afterwards

Alice Vincent, welcome to The Clearing. 

Alice Vincent: Thank you so much. It is such a spontaneous delight to see you. 

Katherine May: I know. I literally called you this morning, didn’t I? We did have plans before, but I’ve had a complicated week. So, um, we thank you for being flexible. It’s a pleasure. And I am, you know, I’m in my little Premier Inn room, which is extremely chic and glamorous, I think we can both agree.

Alice Vincent: Yeah. Yep. 

Katherine May: It’s- And you are looking a bit better there than I am. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah, no, this is, this is great. I’ve been … I’ve had a morning where I’ve been … It’s, essentially it’s gardening Christmas at the moment. It’s Chelsea week. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: So. 

Katherine May: Yes, so- 

Alice Vincent: Yeah … it’s- I, I feel a little bit Boxing Day-ish right now. 

Katherine May: Okay. So you’re going to the Chelsea Flower Show this afternoon after this conversation.

I went this 

Alice Vincent: morning. 

Katherine May: You’ve been already. Yeah. What did you … [00:06:00] What good things did you see? 

Alice Vincent: I saw these trees which are called weeping conifers. And I’m making- Oh, 

Katherine May: wow … 

Alice Vincent: and they’re, they look like they’re out of a Dr. Seuss book, which I recently learned- Mm-hmm … is actually pronounced Dr. Zoice. 

Katherine May: Yes, apparently so, yeah.

But- But 

Alice Vincent: nobody actually says that … whatever you say. No. No. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: So they look like Dr. Seuss trees. They’re amazing. Ooh. Or like, um, Grinch hands. I saw those. They were incredible. 

Katherine May: Grinch hands. 

Alice Vincent: That’s my main takeaway. Ah. Grinch hand trees, yeah. 

Katherine May: And what are, what are the things you’re gonna bring home from Chelsea this year to kind of- Oh, God

populate your g- everything? 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. Well, I, I’ve just … Chelsea’s such a funny one because it is such a demonstration of amazing talent and- Mm … um, hard work and brilliant innovation, and it’s also just, like, this huge web of contradictions and hypocrisies and … It’s a, it’s a difficult thing. Yeah. Um, but what I am gonna take home is lots of fennel.

There’s lots and lots of fennel. Ooh. That’s one of my [00:07:00] favorites. Beautiful. So I’m gonna take home some fennel. Yeah. I’m gonna take home, uh, the combination of light and shadow and moving water, which happened on- Mm … um, some, a, an amazing kind of slab-like water feature I saw. And you’re gonna love this, Katherine.

Katherine May: Okay. 

Alice Vincent: I’m ready. Okay, so every year, David Austin, the specialist rose nursery, creates a new rose. 

Katherine May: Yes. 

Alice Vincent: They launch it at Chelsea. Previous years they’ve, like, dedicated it to, to different gardeners. Last year they had one for the king. This year they’ve made one for David Beckham. 

Katherine May: What? Oh, that ruins roses to me 

Alice Vincent: forever.

But, but, but the thing that’s really complicated about it is that it’s a really beautiful rose. Like, it’s gorgeous. Oh. Like, I want it in my garden. I’ve spoken to them about this- … and I’m like, “I refuse to call it David Beckham.” Don’t make me buy 

Katherine May: David Beckham. 

Alice Vincent: Don’t make me buy David Beckham. Everyone’s like, “What does David Beckham smell like?”

And I’m like, “Ugh.” But he’s just gonna be in my garden known as Dave. Dave. I’m gonna have a- Dave’s the rose … yeah, a rose called Dave. [00:08:00] Yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: So that’s 

Katherine May: it. My, um, my friend, when her mother died a few years ago, somebody bought her a rose that they’d paid to name after her mother. Isn’t that a lovely idea?

Alice Vincent: That is lovely. But I- Yeah … the gardener in me would be like, “You just gotta make sure it looks nice.” 

Katherine May: I know, ’cause I was like, is it a good rose? Because not all roses behave themselves very well. 

Alice Vincent: Some of them are just ugly. Like, it’s like, like all things. Yeah. Um, that is a lovely idea, though. 

Katherine May: Beautiful idea.

Yeah. Yeah. I hope it’s beautifully scented. What color is David Beckham, and d- and is it scented? 

Alice Vincent: This is where it gets even better. It’s very … It starts off these very peachy, beautiful buds and turns into a kind of incredibly tasteful cream rose. I’m almost annoyed at how- Mm … tasteful it is. And then it’s a musk rose, so that means that like- Oh

the, as they open up, they get more scented. And it’s so cold inside the pavilion they won’t open, but apparently it smells a combination of musky and banana. 

Katherine May: Oh, okay. Well. 

Alice Vincent: Which I’m [00:09:00] sure David would’ve wanted. I think I want some makeover. I know. I know. The whole thing is very- Well … strange. Um, I, I’m not sure it’s necessarily what the PR team were going for, but there we go.

We’re talking about it. I 

Katherine May: am so sorry you’re gonna have to have Dave the rose in your garden. I’m so sorry. 

Alice Vincent: I know. I have to rename him. Anyway. 

Katherine May: Oh. Yeah. But Alice, I feel like the first time we ever spent time together on stage, I was fessing up my terribleness around gardening. Yes. And since then I’ve been overtaken by it, and you said I would.

I know. I know. You said I would at the time. You’re like, “You’re right at the beginning, it’s gonna, it’s gonna kick off.” 

Alice Vincent: You are just talking your way onto the Why Women Grow podcast. Yeah. Honestly, Katherine- Honestly, 

Katherine May: it’s 

Alice Vincent: your fault … I’ve been biding my time. I’m like, “She’s gonna come on.” I’ve been noticing this on your substacking and other things.

So what is it that has turned you around? That’s what I want to 

Katherine May: know. Well, partly I think the thing we talked about was my bin garden, wasn’t it? Yeah. That I was in love with. So I’ve got this platform over my bins [00:10:00] that is just was the perfect little mini garden, and it was, I think it’s ’cause it was eye level, I was just paying loads of attention to it, and I, I just really got into it.

And then, then when my husband was ill last year, I just sought refuge in gardening, and one of the things that really comforted me through all of that kind of hideous uncertainty was I mean, it’s shopping essentially, but going to the garden center and filling one of those stupid flatbed trolleys with plants.

And it was particularly wheeling them out to the car and them all kind of shivering together across the tarmac- I know exactly what you mean … as you walked them. And I, I think I got addicted to, to exactly that moment. Mm. Um, over and over again. Mm. And yeah. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Ah, well, I’m thrilled for you, and also- … for his recuperation.

Like- 

Katherine May: Yes … 

Alice Vincent: yeah, it’s, that is the important thing here. But I know exact- I don’t even have a car, and yet the moments of- I have [00:11:00] had instances of just, like, filling a boot with plants. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: It’s amazing, and then you- I, I always- … crack open- … have to take a 

Katherine May: photo- Ah, yes … of the boot with the plants in it- Yes … ’cause it’s like the perfect black box stage for all the- Yes

colors to propagate. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. And it’s like you got a bit of waft and a bit of petal, and they’re all hanging out together, and they’re like, “Where are we going?” Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I’m thrilled for you. Well, you know, we are going to invite ourselves round when you have the energy and capacity- L- let me do- … to talk about-

some 

Katherine May: weeding first … your 

Alice Vincent: bin garden. But, yeah. Yeah. I wanna see the bin garden. 

Katherine May: Oh, you have to see the bin garden, yeah. And I d- I wonder, you know, ’cause we talk about relaxation and rest here- Mm … but is gardening restful for you, or do you have… Is there too much professional… Like, have you ruined it for yourself by- 

Alice Vincent: No, it’s 

Katherine May: such a-

writing about it? 

Alice Vincent: It’s such a good question, because you know what, Katherine? I am just coming out of an era of not gardening, quite a long era. Mm. Mm. Probably, 

Katherine May: like, 

Alice Vincent: if I’m real about it, like a year. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: And that started from, yeah, a bit of burnout and [00:12:00] stuff, but also because we were leaving my old garden, and so I felt- Mm

it was difficult to commit to at that point. And then we gained a new garden, and during this time I was, like, increasingly pregnant. Um, and we gained, we gained this new garden that was- Uh, uh, pretty abandoned 

Katherine May: Yeah 

Alice Vincent: And I was just so overwhelmed. And so for the first time, I did something that feels a bit verboten if you are known for gardening.

And it sounds so stupid when you explain it logically, but I paid a gardener to come and help. 

Katherine May: Yeah. No, that doesn’t sound stupid at all. I mean, it’s, it’s heavy physical work as well- 

Alice Vincent: Yeah … 

Katherine May: as everything else, you know. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanted a collaborator. Like, the, the whole house and everything is a huge project, and so we’re- Mm

working with amazing builders and amazing craftspeople and all this stuff. And I was like, “Well, why would you not, number one- Mm … someone that’s more expert than me?” But it felt almost like a c- a, a cop-out. Anyway, Charlie was amazing. He was– He’s the person who’s planted the Dr. Seuss trees at Chelsea. 

Katherine May: Ah, lovely.[00:13:00] 

Alice Vincent: He’s amazing. So anyway, he has helped. And also, in the last few weeks, because he’s been so preoccupied with Chelsea, he hasn’t been able to come and garden, so I’ve just kind of limbered back up to it myself- Yeah … and I’ve started to garden again, and I’ve started to weed, and I’ve got to really know this new garden, and I’ve started to put things in.

But unlike your, your boot of plants, I haven’t been- I’ve been on a sh- a plant shopping ban. Right. But I’ve made myself some allowances, namely buying plants from local community gardens- That’s great. I mean- … and charity plant sales and that kind of thing. 

Katherine May: Yeah. You can’t argue with that, can you, at 

Alice Vincent: all? No.

No. So as a result, I’ve just been sneaking them in- … under the buggy. It’s like the bottom of the buggy is the, the equivalent of the back of your front car 

Katherine May: boot. Oh, yes. It’s perfect. Yeah. It’s 

Alice Vincent: perfect. Yeah. So I have been gardening now, but it, I– when I am there, you’ll know– I wonder if you know that flow state you get where you haven’t- Mm

really made a plan of what you’re gonna do, and you just go out, and [00:14:00] you have a certain amount of time And you just do Yeah. It’s so nice. It’s so smooth brain for me. 

Katherine May: It’s kind of, it’s sort of like fractal work- Yeah … in that you go out to, and you think, “Oh, I’ll just pull a, pull these little bits up.

They’re looking a little bit scraggly.” And then you’re like, “Well, if I just get my secateurs, I can just have a little…” around. And then, then you s- you spot smaller and smaller things, and you, you sort of work your way really in, and then you find yourself in the car on the way to the garden center. Yes.

Alice Vincent: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But I’ve got m- back into the habit, which I maintained for a really long time, of going out in the garden first thing in the morning. Oh. Which is also for, like, for the body’s endocrine system, a really good shout because if we, like, force natural daylight into our eyes instead of a phone screen first thing- Yeah

like, it, it helps a lot. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: And so I’ve started returning to my morning perambulations around, around the garden in a dressing gown, like the k- [00:15:00] the mad gardener neighbor I am. 

Katherine May: Well, I’d love to see it. I think it’s great. 

Alice Vincent: Thank you. 

Katherine May: So will you be choosing a gardening-based activity for your dream retreat today?

I’m dying to know. 

Alice Vincent: No. 

Katherine May: Mm. No. Right. Well, okay. 

Alice Vincent: Okay. 

Katherine May: Let me invite you into my clearing then, and you can tell me all about it. Sure. Where are you gonna take us? 

Alice Vincent: Right. So I’ve got … I did make notes They are deranged 

Katherine May: Good. 

Alice Vincent: And I’m going, and I, I’m gonna ch- I’m gonna try and cheat. I, like, I want a kind of hybrid I’ve written in r- a response to where would I go.

This combination of Glastonbury- Okay … when the festival is happening. Northumberland 

Katherine May: Oh, geographically- Yeah … really consistent there. Like, not, not two opposite ends of the country in any way. 

Alice Vincent: No. No. Okay. And then also this particular [00:16:00] village between Umbria and Tuscany- … where, uh, whi- which means a very great deal to me.

So a sort of hodgepodge. But if I’m thinking about it, all of those spaces have something which is… And this is where I’m getting unexpectedly woo-woo. They are places that have a kind of inexplicable cosmic special ley line style- 

Katherine May: Vibe … 

Alice Vincent: something like a real creativity and energetic ancient- 

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. Mm

Alice Vincent: forces going on there. They’re places of kind of, um, this undulating natural topography. So they’ve got- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Alice Vincent: hills and- Definitely 

Katherine May: hilly. Hilly is- Yeah … definitely the theme here, yeah. And green, very green. 

Alice Vincent: So green. Mm-hmm. So yeah, that kind of the sort of deliciousness of seeing dips and veils. So this fantastical thing.

But basically, those are my, probably my three pla- favorite places in the world, and I think it’s the mixture of the energy that they hold, but also the things that happen there, and they are all from- Yeah. Okay … quite different distinct parts of my [00:17:00] life when I’ve often been most free and most happy.

Katherine May: Lovely. So take me through it. Glastonbury first of all. Yeah. You’re a fan of the festival, I take it. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah, yeah. And, um, for a decade or so of my life, I would go for work every single summer. I was a music journalist. 

Katherine May: Right. Of course. 

Alice Vincent: And, um, I’ve only ever been to Glastonbury for work, so I’ve only ever known it for work, which if you go- Mm

as a kind of punter, I suppose, probably sounds a bit tragic, but you’ve got to realize, like- … we get access to all the nice loos and the good showers and the good camping. 

Katherine May: Yeah, that would change the complexion of things somewhat, I would 

Alice Vincent: say. Yeah. Yeah. And then I also, and all of my community, my people there were also working.

They’re all journalists too. And so over the course of the decade I spent there, I kind of grew up there. Mm-hmm. I had my heart broken there. I had it… I was in love there. I w- you know, I made friends there. I lost friends there. It, it’s been this sort of strange coming together every summer. But the thing that I love most about it was this sense of possibility.

[00:18:00] There’s a lot of graffiti on, like, the bits of kind of temporary infrastructure that surround Glastonbury. 

Katherine May: Yeah, that’s put up. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: And someone had written in tiny spidery handwriting, “Imagine if real life could be like this.” And I think that’s the sorts of… That sometimes that’s how I think about it for, I think the, the fact that it’s so difficult to get a ticket means that- This huge, very diverse bunch of people are all so deeply grateful to be there.

It doesn’t feel like other music festivals. I used to go to, like, 10 music festivals a summer. That’s interesting. I’m quite well-versed in it. 

Katherine May: Right. You’re, you’re experienced. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Glastonbury definitely feels different, and it is that intersection of, like, the rampant freedom and entertainment and talent- Mm

and stuff going on with this kind of cosmic quietude that you find in the stone circle or in under the trees- Mm … or when you’re watching the sun come up over [00:19:00] the hills and the mist- Yeah … rising from the valley. It’s, it’s that real human aliveness because your phone has died and you’re wearing a cagoule, and you’ve just sort of existed on dust and burgers for three days.

And, and, and I, it, it feels like It feels very special to me Mm-hmm And I’m not sure whether I’ll return. The last one I went to was, um, just as before I became pregnant with my son. And, and I remember thinking at the time, “If this is the last one I go to, that’s, that’s fine. This has been the best.” Okay.

But it- You- … it is a period of time in my life. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Is it, I mean, is it a young person’s kind of a game really? And would you bring kids there? ‘Cause some people do, right? 

Alice Vincent: I would when they’re a bit bigger- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Alice Vincent: I think. Yeah. Yeah, I would. As I think it would… You’d just be able to see it in a totally new light.

And I don’t think it’s a young person’s game. Yeah. It is a moneyed person’s game, I would say. 

Katherine May: Yes, it’s expensive now. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Um- Yeah … but [00:20:00] never say never, but I’m very happy for that part of my life to be captured in that way. And I think when I was, um, writing my most recent book, Hark, there’s a lot of, of, like, wrapped up in my music journalist identity, and a lot of the reason why I wanted to write a book about listening and music is tied up to kind of what it is to be a person who inhabits that world.

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: And so- Yeah … that, to go and have, like, another really good night dancing under the stars at Glastonbury would be a- A good go, yeah … certain retreat. 

Katherine May: I always ask people if they like solitude, but it seems to me that your, your vision is h- tens of thousands of other people, not just a, you know, a friend or two.

Alice Vincent: Yeah. In, in that way, yes. Yeah, I love that sense of being a kinda communal body for a bit. Yeah. But then the reason why Northumberland is in there is because somewhere I went, uh… Number one, I studied in Newcastle, and we’d always go to Northumberland for these, like, little getaways and camping on the beach and- Right

that kind of thing. [00:21:00] But also, when I released my first book, Rootbound, in the immediate aftermath of it coming out, like, the day after it came out, I took a train- Mm … up to, uh, Alnmouth. 

Katherine May: Oh, so beautiful up there. 

Alice Vincent: So gorgeous. Yeah. And I stayed alone off-grid in a cabin by myself in January for, uh, like, three nights.

Katherine May: Wow. 

Alice Vincent: And it was, it was very cold, but it was those clear skies. Those, like, amazing crisp winter days- Mm … and the light s- filtering through the sand dunes and- What I hadn’t realized was, um, within six weeks we’d all be locked down. 

Katherine May: Of course. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: So it was this- Yeah … sort of bizarre time, which I know that you would’ve gone through with Wintering as well, which came out, uh- You wrote, yeah

a similar time to- So I was rebound … was it? 

Katherine May: Um, March, yeah. There you go. I was March 2020, so yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: And obviously that was incredibly prescient, that book. But this, this notion of forcing myself into a literal [00:22:00] retreat- 

Katherine May: Mm. Mm … 

Alice Vincent: at this kind of strange time before the end of the time as we knew it has always- Yeah

felt very precious to me. 

Katherine May: That’s lovely. So there’s like a marker there. So you imagine yourself in this, in this same cabin, do you? Or would you upgrade? 

Alice Vincent: Oh, I’d upgrade the cab- Okay. It didn’t have a shower, Katherine. Oh, 

Katherine May: no, no, no. 

Alice Vincent: Let’s upgrade. I’d have to put a bath in it. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Lovely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe perched on the outskirts of Glastonbury so I could dip in and out.

Yeah, 

Katherine May: no, no. So, so, so far 

Alice Vincent: I can’t make it make sense. 

Katherine May: No, no, it’s fine. I’m, I’m there. I’m there. So Northumberland is on the outskirts of Glastonbury. Yeah, yeah. You’re in a luxury cabin with a really good- Yeah … bath. Yeah. Are you a bath person? 

Alice Vincent: I am a bath person. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: So much so that Thames Water had to come and, um- Oh

under the guise of fitting a smart meter, came and gave my husband and I a real rap on the knuckles about our bath usage. 

Katherine May: Oh my goodness. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. Yeah. 

Katherine May: You’re in trouble. Wow. I know. Okay. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah, I know. That was probably more information than I need to let anyone know. But- But it has chastened us. 

Katherine May: Well, w- but [00:23:00] writers have to think somewhere, and baths are very, you know, 

Alice Vincent: very useful.

These days I don’t have many vices, you know? Right. I really don’t. 

Katherine May: You’re like, “I’ve got two tiny children. Are you joking? Give 

Alice Vincent: me the 

Katherine May: bath.” 

Alice Vincent: I lit- I literally said that to her. I was like- … “I’ve got a four-month-old child. What am I meant to do?” 

Katherine May: I can’t go to Glastonbury. No. 

Alice Vincent: What should I just do, not wash for four days?

Yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Wow. Wow, that is, that’s quite impressive though to actually have to have someone come and have a word with you. I love this. Yeah. I, I think that’s, I think that’s a sign of a very good person- … that spends that much time in the bathtub. At least very clean, you know? 

Alice Vincent: Very clean. I can’t dispute my cleanliness.

Yeah, so we’ve got the cabin near the c- Yeah … in the coast as well, and those- Yes. Okay … expanse of beaches and big skies. And then, 

Katherine May: yeah. Northumberland is, I don’t think, you know, it doesn’t seem to be a major, major holiday destination. Oh. But it’s incredible up there. [00:24:00] Just so, as you say, massive skies, wild, wild seas, the Farne Islands, all that kind of lovely

Uh, Lindisfarne, of course, is, is there. Yeah. This lovely kind of monastic history. Puffins, dolphins, great food. It’s an incredible part of the country. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. We’ve got to stop shouting about it. 

Katherine May: Yeah, sorry, we shouldn’t have said any of that, actually. 

Alice Vincent: It’s terrible. Don’t go there. No. Awful. It’s, it’s, it’s- Awful place

it’s beautifully unspoiled. Uh- 

Katherine May: Yeah … it’s 

Alice Vincent: very 

Katherine May: special. Lovely. Really, really lovely. Okay. And then thirdly- Italy. Yes. 

Alice Vincent: I lo- I just love Italy, man. And this- Yeah … uh, village, um, Lipiano, is, is the place where I host my annual writing retreats. 

Katherine May: Right. 

Alice Vincent: Right. But it’s also somewhere I’ve been going since I was a child.

Mm-hmm. Um, uh, to the same villa. And so that’s since, uh, it is- Oh, 

Katherine May: this… So wait, sorry, the same villa since you were a child, and now you run retreats there? 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Wow. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah, yeah. That’s lovely. And it’s quite a well-known, if you’re into that kind of [00:25:00] thing, you’ll probably have heard of Villa Pia. There’ll be some of your listeners who are familiar with it.

Oh, right. And it’s always been run by the same family, and, you know, whole generations of people. I think when I took my son there, I was the first Villa Pia child to have brought a child there. A child. So that was… Yeah. But the, um- But it’s a very special place. But again, it’s a, it’s a very beautiful landscape.

And then we do, we host a literal retreat, right? Mm-hmm. So we write, we host a writing retreat there, and that is a place that has reinterpreted the notion of retreat. Yeah. For me, um, it’s also just, oh my God, the food is so good, Katherine. And I just really love pasta. Yeah. So I just want- Yes … these big, long communal dinners.

We have big communal dinners for, like, f- you know, 30-odd people, and we sit and we eat and we talk. And that notion, again, of expanse and gratitude and communion is, is- Mm … important to me. 

Katherine May: There’s abundance there. I have to ask, though, does that mean that your parents went on creative retreats as well? 

Alice Vincent: No, ’cause in the…

[00:26:00] So when it’s summer holidays, they run it as a holiday destination. Oh, I see. And then when it’s not summer holidays, they host retreats there. 

Katherine May: Right. Right. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. 

Katherine May: So I had, I had this lovely vision of, you know, your parents kind of passing down this 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. No. In the words of my mum the other week, I was talking about the current manuscript I’m working on, and she was just like, “It’s my idea of hell.

I don’t know how you do it.” They are … She is an incredibly creative person. Both my parents are. Yeah. But just not with the words. 

Katherine May: I understand that. It is a ki- a special kind of hell that we seem compelled towards. I, I can see why it’s completely baffling ’cause I’m quite baffled by why I keep doing it. I, mainly ’cause I d- can’t do any other jobs really.

Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: And I also think the longer you spend doing the really weird, hard job of writing, somehow you, you convince yourself that you’re, you’re even worse placed to do a nine to… I used to be really into nine to fives. I was quite good at nine to five. So now I’m just like- Oh, were you? … couldn’t do that again.

Katherine May: Yeah. I was 

Alice Vincent: terrible at it. Absolutely 

Katherine May: not. Always hated it. Felt like it was a big imposition ’cause I wasn’t writing, you see. I- Mm. We [00:27:00] have that love-hate thing. Okay. So we are in Glastonbury, Northumbrian- Glastonbury 

Alice Vincent: sandwiched between an Italian villa and Northumbrian cabin on the coast. 

Katherine May: Just sounds absolutely lovely.

So , so what are you gonna do while you’re there? What’s the … What does your day look like in this sandwich place? 

Alice Vincent: Well, I did write a list. 

Katherine May: Okay. 

Alice Vincent: Do you wanna hear the list? 

Katherine May: I, um, I love a list. Okay. I love a list.

Alice Vincent: Dance, gather, play, read, snooze, early mornings, walk, eat, swim, revel. 

Katherine May: Revel. It’s really so… I’ve said it once already, but it’s really sociable this. This is a bit like, I’m- it feels a bit like a wedding almost. Yes. Like a really good wedding, you know? Yes. Where every- everything is kind of free enough that y- you know, you’re not being oppressed by 50 different arrangements of photograph or whatever.

But- Yeah, 

Alice Vincent: no, I was gonna say, there’s no one [00:28:00] pausing for a photograph. That’s not happening. 

Katherine May: No, absolutely not. But you’re, you’re in, you’re inhabiting a place with a group of other beloved people and, and having fun. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. I’m, so I’m a, I’m an enormous extrovert. Good. Which is also why the, um, writing gig is bizarre.

And when I was teaching myself how, like adjusting to being… I’ve always been a full-time writer, but a full-time writer on my dime rather than- Yeah … somebody else’s. Um, I really had to learn how to calibrate my weeks, because if I don’t, you know, I did that thing where I was like, “Well, I must just like sit.”

I used to work in a hut in the garden. I was like, “I must just sit in the hut three days.” And I went fully bad. Right. Like, went, like entered like gremlin state. Um, so now I have to kind of taper myself into society by the end of the week. Because I, I, yeah, I’m a big extrovert. But, um, what you [00:29:00] describe sounds like my idea of heaven.

My best weekends are like, yeah, the ones with lots of people. And when you- Mm … posed this notion of retreat to me, I was like, “Well, I kind of wanna be with my kids and my part- my favorite people.” I, I love a house party. I remember when- I remember when it was Farrah, like Sub Stack Farrah, um, asked me to do the piece on like id- ideal weekend or how would you spend your last 24 hours on earth?

And I was like, “I would fill the house with peonies. It would be a beautiful day in May, and I would just let everyone I love into my house, and we’d just have a massive, massive party.” Like, that’s just my idea of like how I’d want to go out. 

Katherine May: It’s interesting, Alice, because you’re clearly a party animal, but actually your writing is very often about very quiet pleasures, very kind of restrained kind of- Mm

tasteful, quiet pleasures. It’s fascinating that behind that lurks the party monster. 

Alice Vincent: I think the two go in hand in hand, ’cause I think for me, like we do host a lot, [00:30:00] and it’s something that my husband and I have quite- We have plenty in common, but we have quite different, uh- Mm … lives. Like, when we met, he traded out on the fact that I was a music journalist, and he, like, for his mates, they were like, “You’re a giant theater nerd.

Like, why are you going out with this cool-seeming music journalist?” It’s like, yeah, spoiler, she’s a massive nerd, too. But we love getting people around a table. It’s always taken us a long time to find somewhere to live because the, there has to be a s- particular place for a d- it has to pass the dining table test.

Mm, mm. And we’ve always thrown the house open to people. And so those quiet pleasures for me can be a particularly good beeswax candle. It just happens to be on a table full of people. I love making someone a pink salad. I love growing flowers to cut and bung in a vase. I, I- Yeah … love the quietitu- You know, one of my favorite things of festivals is the ti-, you know, minutes after everyone has kind of stumbled back to bed, and they’ve got a bit of sleep, [00:31:00] and it’s before everybody else wakes up, ’cause I’m like a ferocious morning person.

And the light is breaking, and the grass is dewy, and you can kind of sense that what has been, but it also feels like a start of something new. Mm. And that’s like this sort of- Mm … holy time. It, for me, it’s contrast. Like- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Alice Vincent: I love company, but I wouldn’t necess- and I, and I love the f- the animalistic bodily thrill of being in a rave, but- 

Katherine May: Mm

Alice Vincent: I, I need, I need the gap where th- knowing those people have been there, the, the space in between as well. 

Katherine May: After reading your book, Hark, I can’t help but think about this as a series of soundscapes as well. You know, the kind of roar of the crowd, and the, you know, the blazing music, but also the y- there’s a, there’s something in your vision about quiet chatter.

You know, that kind of after dinner- 

Alice Vincent: Mm … 

Katherine May: relaxed talk that I think is one of the great pleasures in life when everyone’s had a good meal- 

Alice Vincent: Mm … 

Katherine May: [00:32:00] and they’re hanging around the table- Mm … and just, everything just feels really easy. 

Alice Vincent: Mm. And then there’s moments of 

Katherine May: silence. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The, the notion when you were talking about that.

So the the literal week before my daughter was born, which is as, as we were discussing, a couple of weeks after I saw you last. 

Katherine May: Yeah, that’s right. You were very pregnant when 

Alice Vincent: I last 

Katherine May: saw 

Alice Vincent: you. Very pregnant. So w- because of, like, various things, we hadn’t had a party in a while, and I was like, “Well, I want a birthday party,” and we’re not gonna do a baby shower because it’s the second baby.

And so, but I was like… And I, like, we haven’t warmed the house, so let’s just throw a party to do all of these things. And it kind of went on till 2:00 AM, and she was born the week aft- anyway. Um, but it was like f- it was like my last burst of energy. It was great. But there was this moment when there were just the stragglers, the young people, the young people namely.

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: And everyone was sitting on the floor eating satsumas because it sort of- … everyone needed the palate cleanser, right? They were just, like, getting increasingly drunk and eating satsumas, and that coziness of everyone sitting. It’s al- almost childlike. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: But yeah, it’s the [00:33:00] soundscape. It’s that h- it’s a happy noise.

The same way that for me, sometimes I zone out of being in my house of, like, Saturday morning, and it’s not even 8:00 yet, and yet we’ve made cookies, and there’s a toddler screaming on a, on the worktop, and the baby is, like, burbling, and the radio’s on, and it’s all quite overwhelming. And I, and I think your life isn’t always going to sound like this.

Katherine May: Mm. Mm. 

Alice Vincent: And it- Mm. You know, sometimes it’s really, really overwhelming, and sometimes it’s pure joy, and sometimes I’m just kind of shocked and fascinated that this is what my life currently sounds like. Yeah. Because I write in silence. And actually in the house, if I’m by myself, I exist in silence. I don’t really put the radio on.

I- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Alice Vincent: I like being quiet. Um, but I do think that- I love the noise of people- 

Katherine May: Mm … 

Alice Vincent: in a house. Mm. It makes me really happy and very, very grateful that I live among that. And I know that’d be way too much for a lot of people, but for me it’s a really [00:34:00] lovely thing. 

Katherine May: Is that a kind of childhood thing, I wonder?

Like, did you grow up in a big family, or is it… Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause quite often people s- people who grew up in a, in a lively household really find quiet quite hard, I think. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah, I’ve had to grow used to it. And lonely, and being by my own company as well. I have had to- Mm … learn how to do that. And as I get older, I find it easier.

Um, but I’m, like, the youngest of three children. Um, we are- we’re a musical household. There’s always music- Mm … on in my, in the mum’s kitchen, and there’s a piano at the other end of the house. And my sister would sing and, like, you know, there was always chatter and noise. And, like, my brother would have music on in his bedroom, so it…

And then we’d always gather around a table and talk, yeah, and joke and laugh. It was- 

Katherine May: Yeah … 

Alice Vincent: And so that is the noise of home for me. Mm. Um, and similarly, we always, we would always have people in the [00:35:00] house as well. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: So it would have to be that for, for it to be a retreat. It’s progressive. And also I’d have to know how to escape it because- 

Katherine May: Yeah.

You need, you need those moments of silence to kind of land, and they, those… It’s almost spiritual, that pause in between, and there’s the potential for the next, next thing encapsulated within it. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: Totally. 

Katherine May: So what would you bring with you that would signal comfort or home for you? Mm. What, what kind of cherished object?

Alice Vincent: So the one that I’ve written down, um, is a camera. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: And I’ve shot on film since I was a student. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: Um, and I used to shoot on my dad’s old, uh, Canon AE, which for, I’m sure some of your audience are, are camera nerds. And the, and I still have that. It’s quite a heavy, hulking thing, and it’s traveled all over the [00:36:00] world with me.

And, um, and then a couple of years ago, my husband gave me an Olympus, uh, this, like, much dinkier- Right … point and shoot thing. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Um, and, and now I shoot on that. But I would have one or other of them and endless film. Um- 

Katherine May: Mm. Lovely … 

Alice Vincent: bec- and, and just to take all the photos that people can’t look at and delete afterwards.

Katherine May: Uh, do you, uh, do you prefer color or black and white? 

Alice Vincent: I prefer color. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: But, um, I do shoot in black and white as well. But I, I love– For me, that, that comes the closest to the writing that you’ve so kindly spoken about, the quiet edges of life. Like- 

Katherine May: Mm … 

Alice Vincent: taking the photos of things and people that are unpolished, that are- Yeah

so representative of what we actually look like and who [00:37:00] we are and- Mm … how we relate to one another. I, um, I don’t know if you can see. Yeah. No, it’s the other side. Um, behind me. 

Katherine May: Fetching is occurring. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. At the end of last year, I made two photo albums of 2025. 

Katherine May: Oh, lovely. 

Alice Vincent: And so one is digital, like- Right

iPhone photos, and then one is specifically film photos. 

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: And, um, the process was so interesting because none of the photos that I would usually think are sick that are on Instagram made it into these albums. 

Katherine May: Interesting. 

Alice Vincent: So it wasn’t like– I had, like, a kind of mad year last year- … for really good reasons.

I, like, released a book, and recorded loads of cool podcasts, and moved house, and had a baby, and all of this stuff that’s, like, quite, you [00:38:00] know- Lifey … life-changing. Yeah. Lifey. None of those photos– I mean, the new baby obviously got in there, but n- Got 

Katherine May: in there just 

Alice Vincent: about. She, she got in there. Oh, okay. Fine.

But the, the photos, if I look at them, they’re like, they’re just pictures of us having Sunday lunch with our favorite friends and, like- Yeah … mucking around on the beach and, um, sitting with– my kid sitting with his cousins in the bath. Like- 

Katherine May: Uh … 

Alice Vincent: the, it’s, it’s not the big showy stuff, right? Yeah. It’s all the- Yeah

stuff around the edges. And I think, you know, it was such a useful process of showing me what I really valued. Um, and also I think if, you know, as you’ll, you’ll know how to speak to this as well, like, if you write about your life, and if you document your life and share that online, then it is part of how you exist and make money in your practice.

Katherine May: Mm. 

Alice Vincent: It can be really difficult to ascertain, like, [00:39:00] what is the stuff that really is the, like, the heart, soul matter. Like, the things- Yeah … that I would put in a vault and take away with me, and, and what doesn’t actually matter. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. And so I think that is why I would want… I love taking photos, number one.

It’s, uh, it’s how I kind of preserve an aspect. But I also want to take a photo of, like, I don’t know, the sweet wrapper on the floor and the empty glasses- Mm … and the guttering candles and the, the, that sun hitting- It’s all about- … door the 

Katherine May: morning 

Alice Vincent: after … 

Katherine May: texture. It’s a bit- Mm … like the sound again, but it’s all about the texture of everyday life.

Alice Vincent: Mm. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. It makes 

Alice Vincent: a lot of sense. Uh, and that’s why, like, don’t get me wrong, there are definitely times when, you know, I text my fr- … my other mum friends be like, “Can we go to the flotation tank today?” There’s this metaphorical flotation tank- … that we just, like, ah, try to escape to every now and then.

But, like, if I was retreating, I would want to take all of that with me. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: I mean, ’cause- I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna take the clearing up. I don’t wanna sweep a floor. I don’t even necessarily want to, like, make small child [00:40:00] crudités. But I would- I’d want I’d want to revel in all the fun of it with everyone.

Katherine May: Yeah. And I think, as you say, it’s that, it’s that, it’s that contra- I think the rest comes in that contrast between what we both do, which is quite public-facing, you know, and having to be, having to say something sensible about every occasion almost. Like, having to form an opinion, having to kind of not react but to find your center before you comment.

I mean, I often dream of that kind of life where you could just take to Instagram, go, “Blah, I’m really annoyed today.” Like, we, we can’t do that. We have to have a bit of grace, right? Mm. If we possibly can muster it. 

Alice Vincent: Mm. 

Katherine May: Um, and I, y- it makes you really ch- cherish those backstage moments where everyone’s sitting, watching TV together and enjoy, you know, enjoying the same thing- Yeah

or something like that. It’s, that’s actual, actual life, and [00:41:00] it’s got no business being out, out front and center. But that’s why it becomes really special because it’s yours. It’s personal. Mm. And it’s, and it’s so ordinary. You know? It’s so ordinary. You don’t have to be extraordinary. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: It’s stultifyingly dull.

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. But in a really comforting way. Like, you don’t have to make the best toddler crudités, you know, that are- No. You know, you can make terrible ones, and that’s fine. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. Yeah. I think, and, and also, you know, as, as you’ll know all too well, like- I’m entering that era of my life where it feels like extreme joy and extreme winding- 

Katherine May: Mm.

Alice Vincent: -l- life horribleness. Yeah. A cheek by jowl. 

Katherine May: Yes. 

Alice Vincent: Absolute cheek by jowl. Yeah. It’s a, a kind of sometimes really discombobulating effect. And so it just makes everything slightly more precious. It’s such a cliché. Mm. Of course it is. Um, but I think that’s, you know, [00:42:00] sometimes boring is, is very nice. That’s the result.

Boring is 

Katherine May: a great privilege, actually- Yeah … I think quite often. And you- Yeah … and you do, you begin to realize it. You, the wind drops for a while and you think, “Oh, I can just do something really dull tonight,” and that’s, like, that’s very lovely. Get me to bed at 

Alice Vincent: 8:30 PM. Mm. Always. And, and a sit bath. Don’t tell Thames Water.

Katherine May: I just… Honestly, I’m outraged on your behalf about the baths. 

Alice Vincent: Everyone we’ve told about it, and we’ve told a lot of people ’cause honestly, Katherine, our lives are very dull at the moment. Everyone we’ve told about Sharon the water meter lady has been outraged. That’s the word they have used. They’re like- 

Katherine May: Like, 

Alice Vincent: Sharon

“You pay for your water.” Yeah. “Who’s Sharon to tell you what to do?” 

Katherine May: Sharon, mind your own business. I bet you have a better water butt than everybody else in the garden as well. I bet you’re recycling water like crazy. Sharon. 

Alice Vincent: In my old house I did have two water butts, and I had one attached to my writing shed.

That’s how many water butts I had. 

Katherine May: Sharon didn’t care about that, though. She didn’t ask about 

Alice Vincent: that. She didn’t, she didn’t ask about those. 

Katherine May: Honestly, yeah, outrage. And so what about [00:43:00] a cultural artifact- Mm … that you could bring with you to your… I mean, it feels like there’s a lot of culture in the air already, but is there one particular thing that would, I don’t know, s- make you feel excited or stimulated or, or calm?

Alice Vincent: Yeah. So this is a toughie. These are tough- Mm … questions. I was saying to my husband before I came on- … I was like, “I’ve really got to engage my brain for this podcast. I’ve really gotta think about it.” And he was like, “Oh, you’ll be fine.” I was like, “No. No, I have.” 

Katherine May: It’s cutting to the heart of a lot of things that you particularly care about, I think that’s the thing.

Alice Vincent: Yeah. Uh, um, also I’m like- … I’m, I’m a nerd who just wants to do everything the best I can. Um, so I’ve written, um, an old-school iPod- Oh … with a load of songs on it. 

Katherine May: Lovely. 

Alice Vincent: So and that is for the dance parties, but also for quieter moments, um, to, like, play the, play that, like, perfect song just when you need [00:44:00] it.

The one that’s immediately coming to mind is, um, there was this… Oh, so, you know, y- you’ve read Heart. You’ll know that for a good chunk of time I was quite disconnected from music- 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: No … despite it being this, like, huge thing in my life- Mm … and I stopped listening. And I think my son must’ve been, like, three, four days old.

And we were just like, you know, standing there awash with like wa- like awe and wonder on like one of the very few days that someone didn’t come around and look at the baby. Yeah. And, um He was in my husband’s arms, and Tender by Blur, my hu-husband- Oh … put Tender by Blur onto the stereo. And it was this real, like, “I’ve never heard a song in this way before.”

Katherine May: Oh, yeah. The right song for the right moment. And it’s such a beautiful song. It’s one of my absolute favorites. 

Alice Vincent: It’s a great song. Yeah. But also this of like, this kind of [00:45:00] more of, oh, we’re gonna have… We have so much to show you. Yeah. Like, we have so- this song sounds different because you’re hearing it for the first time- Mm

because it’s taken on a new meaning that you have heard. 

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. 

Alice Vincent: And it was one of those things that I couldn’t even put music on at that time, that was unthinkable. Yeah. I didn’t even… People were like, “Oh, what do you wanna listen to in the birthing pool?” And I was like, “I don’t know.” 

Katherine May: Yeah, 

Alice Vincent: yeah. But, like- 

Katherine May: How on earth do you choose that?

I mean, these people that are really certain, like, “I need to give birth to this song,” like wow, they know their minds more than I do. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. No, it was not something I thought about at all. And the one … This is so funny. The, I ended up in theater, um, with my first birth. And so they had like… And the, the music that they play in, um, surgery at 5:00 AM is the same that you hear in cabs at 5:00 AM, which is-

Magic FM. 

Katherine May: Oh, wow. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. And so what they had was, while, while the [00:46:00] forceps were doing their thing, Waterloo by ABBA. Incredible. And then as my son was pulled out, this is just so perfectly awful- … You’re Beautiful by Christina Aguilera. 

Katherine May: Oh, no. Oh, wow. 

Alice Vincent: I mean- It’s just like nobody wanted this. And yet c- I challenge you, riddle me two better songs.

You’re just there. And I was like- But the- The pain relief had kicked in, I was like, “ABBA.” 

Katherine May: Practically they’re pretty good, you know. Wow. 

Alice Vincent: It’s just spot on. Yeah. 

Katherine May: That’s, I mean, I, I, I was not very well during my pregnancy anyway, but I refused to write a birth plan because I was like, “No, I refuse to try to assert control- There’s no chance

over this. It’s just, it’s just not, it’s not right. It’s not… This isn’t true. This isn’t gonna happen. I can’t plan it.” No. And I, I just didn’t, I felt really resistant to the idea of trying to control the environment in that way. And as it happened, I [00:47:00] had the kind of birth that that would’ve, like, upset me if I’d had a plan, you know?

So I’m quite glad. But I, I mean, some people do seem to manage it, but I, I just knew in my heart that my birth was not gonna be wieldy enough to, 

Alice Vincent: yeah. Yeah, I was the same. I think I begrudgingly did it at some bullying from the midwife, but, like, no, it didn’t, obviously it didn’t, uh, go to plan. Whatever pl- I didn’t have one.

And then second time around I was going to make a birth plan, but then the baby turned up. It was in- Yeah … it was on the to-do list. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Didn’t happen. 

Katherine May: Yeah. We’re, we’re 

Alice Vincent: the same Yeah. 

Katherine May: Okay. So I, I just, I love the song you’ve chosen. It’s just one of my absolute favorites, and I, it, it feels to me like this is just a retreat of many moods and of…

It’s, it’s almost like in my head, it’s just shifting clouds over the sky, like all these different beautiful moods washing in and resolving themselves and kind of dissipating again. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. I [00:48:00] mean, I suppose the more we talk about it, the more I’m aware that, you know, a kind of festival, carnival-esque Like big house party.

There’s a, the scene that’s- Yeah … immediately coming to mind right now. And you know the Sofia Coppola Marie Antoinette film? 

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. Mm. 

Alice Vincent: And there’s that scene after the party, and it’s in dawn, and they’re all gathered around some kind of Louis 14 lake, and the sun is coming up That, that- 

Katherine May: That’s it … 

Alice Vincent: that’s, that’s kind of- 

Katherine May: Yeah

Alice Vincent: that would be really nice. The sort of- Sunrise … something sunrisey- Yeah … the liminal, that sort of gleeful bodily exhaustion- Mm … met with this, the delicious affinity for the people around you. Um, natural songs, but also maybe perfect music. Not, uh, not, no, no men with acoustic guitars. Oh, okay. They are outlawed from my retreat.

Katherine May: Fine. Fine. 

Alice Vincent: Please [00:49:00] leave. No problem at all. Don’t play. Don’t play any of that. Go away. Yeah. But- Don’t 

Katherine May: get your guitar out. Guitar stays in its case- … in your house. Thank you very much. 

Alice Vincent: That’s- Do not inflict it upon us. Um- And 

Katherine May: particularly don’t sing. 

Alice Vincent: Don’t sing. But a spontaneous chorus of wise women, fine.

Katherine May: Fine. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: That would be- Yeah … 

Katherine May: lovely. That would be very nice 

Alice Vincent: indeed. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Okay. 

Alice Vincent: That would do me the world of good. 

Katherine May: Sounds absolutely lovely. So how do you know when the party’s over and it’s time to go? 

Alice Vincent: Oh, I am the party mum. I always have been party mum. It’s, um- … I’m always the one pulling the, uh, evacuation cord.

Katherine May: Right. 

Alice Vincent: Like, uh, uh, still now I’m a big believer in quitting, you know? 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Quitting while you’re ahead. Calling it all- 

Katherine May: Do you, you’ve got your bin bag out, you’re putting the cans in it. 

Alice Vincent: It’s like you’ve been to my house. Yeah. Just, uh, just, um- I have been known to, like, go- … bring it on … go to bed at my own parties just being like, “Have fun, [00:50:00] guys.”

Yeah. “See you later.” “Night, night everybody. I’m done.” Yeah. I’m done. Alice 

Katherine May: out. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. There’s this thing that I think India Knight wrote about on her, her newsletter about what Jilly Cooper used to do at her parties, which is that, um, when she’d have enough, she’d get one of her assistants just to walk around and go, “Jilly is tired.”

Katherine May: Oh. 

Alice Vincent: So chic and good, isn’t it? 

Katherine May: That’s great. She’s great. 

Alice Vincent: Jil- She’s great … Jilly is tired. Mm. So, you know. And actually, when I was thinking about what artifact in my, in- … this is gonna sound very grand, in a loo that isn’t very used in the house is my entire collection of Jilly Cooper novels. Oh. And it is sizable.

Yeah. And I called them all in before a mat leave ’cause that was what I was gonna do on mat leave. I, uh, yeah, you know, if I was on a desert island, I would make do merrily with the Rutshire Chronicles in their entirety. Uh. But that’s not what you’re asking me. 

Katherine May: No. 

Alice Vincent: Um- 

Katherine May: No, no. But I, I think we’ll let Lauren Laverne know that, you know, you’re ready for, for the question [00:51:00] about desert island discs.

Like, you’ll get the Bible- I’ll just take all the Rutshire Chronicles … you’ll get the works of Shakespeare, and then the complete works of Jilly Cooper. I, I wonder if they’ll let you replace the Shakespeare with the Jilly, actually. It seems like a fair swap. Um, 

Alice Vincent: yeah. That is a big question. I know which would be more fun.

Katherine May: Yeah. “No, I don’t want Shakespeare. Can I have Jilly Cooper? Thank you very much.”

Yeah And so finally, is there one thing you’re gonna bring back from this gorgeous party wedding retreat into normal life? 

Alice Vincent: Honestly, that life is quite short, and that-

You know, it’s, it’s these are the things that will sustain you in the long run 

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm 

Alice Vincent: So, you know, see your friends and- It’s an honor to have another fa- 

Katherine May: another party 

Alice Vincent: Have another party. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. 

Alice Vincent: Have another party, and keep them coming. And yeah, [00:52:00] that, that’s what I would like to hold onto- Yeah

as I also, you know, make plans this evening to go to bed at 8:30 PM. 

Katherine May: Yes. But, but the two can coexist. You need the 8:30 bedtime so that you can survive the parties. It’s all fine. 

Alice Vincent: Yeah. I think so. 

Katherine May: Alice, thank you so much. That was lovely. Thank you. A bit mad, but lovely.

I’m back again While I was trying to avoid the sound of the loud music, I took a wrong turn. So now I’m having to retrace my steps. I’m walking alongside a former empty canal, just the deep concrete channel all covered over in moss, where once there was a flow of water doing useful things. [00:53:00] There’s a lot of talk about starting using our canals again, and I for one am all for it.

Right, I think I’ve found my correct turn off. How lovely was that conversation? I thought it was delightful. I loved the way that Alice wanted everything all at once. I think that’s an excellent way to be. And I loved that moment that she captured of, ah, when things have been loud and sociable and hectic, but that moment of quiet comes.

Sociable quiet, communal quiet, just as the dew is appearing on the grass. I’m passing the music again, I’m so sorry. I was just rhapsodizing about those quiet moments in life, and here we are. Ah. [00:54:00] What’s really interesting is that the music is in this battered old warehouse. I’m sure people are working in there, but it looks like it’s about to fall down, frankly.

So goodness knows what’s happening in there. No wonder they need music to cheer them up. Ah, retracing your steps when you’ve gone the wrong way, coming back past all the things that annoyed you before. This walk is determined to remind me to recommend Hark, isn’t it? Because I really do. It’s out in paperback now, and it is absolutely lovely, so do pick that up.

And once again, thank you for joining up for the bonus episodes. I am so enjoying recording them, and particularly, I think, hearing [00:55:00] the dream retreats that you guys submit because they are so varied and so interesting. You know, just hearing different people’s visions of how it might be done, and different people’s dreams and desires.

I often hear people say it’s boring to hear people’s dreams, but I always love it. Maybe that’s a kind of writerly thing though. We’re always looking for that little bit of extra information and humanity. Right. Do you know what? I’m gonna leave you before I get any more lost, because I think I might need to concentrate on where I’m going.

Otherwise, I’ll end up back [00:56:00] in Whitstable, and that won’t do. I need to go and see my mum. I will be back next week with another wonderful dream retreat. So until then, you take care, take the long way home, take a break, drink a cup of tea, look at the stars, breathe, and I’ll see you really soon. All right?

Bye.