Katherine May: [00:00:00] Oh, hello. This is Katherine May here. Welcome to The Clearing Pod. Thank you for giving me an excuse to go out for a walk today while I record this for you. It is Fraggle the Dog’s bought day today. Well, we didn’t buy her. We just paid a lot of money to have her shipped over from another country, and then paid loads more money to have her restored to good health.

Um, but we’ve never regretted it, except occasionally. Um, but she, um, bless her, we love her. Uh, we’ve had her for seven years today, and that’s quite something, isn’t it? Yeah. She’s, um, she’s still our very, very beloved dog, but I’m not walking with her. I’m walking without her because, uh, I took Bert to the pet [00:01:00] shop to buy Fraggle a little treat for her bir- birthday.

I can’t really call it her birthday. I think she was… We don’t know when she was born. We think she was about five months when we got her, um, which means she was probably born around about May. We’re not sure. Um, anyway, uh, we went to buy her a little treat, and we chose, uh, a horn filled with some kind of foul-smelling goop.

And yeah, I’ve reached the point where I don’t want to be in a room with the foul-smelling goop anymore. So- I’m leaving Fraggle to it while I go for a little stroll. And honestly, it’s crazy in Whitstable today. It feels like spring. It’s warm. It got warm halfway through last night. Of course, what’s caused this warmness is that I put the proper duvet on my bed.

Sorry, guys, I’ve ruined winter. I changed over the duvet, immediately became [00:02:00] hot again. Now I’m boiling. Um, yeah, and it is sunny and warm and lovely, and the leaves haven’t fallen off the trees yet. Uh, but the sycamore seeds are all over the pavement. Um, and they, yeah, they look really, um, autumnal and kind of, kind of cool.

I spent a little bit of time throwing them in the air so they helicoptered down to the ground, obviously. What else would I do with my time? Um, so yeah, it’s a funny one today. Uh, but it’s probably good because do you know what? I really need to spend some time in my garden pulling it into shape. Too much has gone on this year, and it is much neglected, so it’s time.

So I feel kind of spring-like in that sense because my thoughts are turning to gardening. Um, but there we have it. Anyway, I hope you’re enjoying this autumn, even if it’s failing to be quite as [00:03:00] crisp as we would prefer it to be. Um, I have a fantastic guest that I know loads of you are gonna be very excited to hear from today.

But before I introduce her, I just wanted to let you know that, uh, we’ll be taking a break after this episode for just two weeks. Um, we like to take a mid-season break at the Clearing Pod, partly because we want to not buy in to the kind of very unceasing, relentless world of other podcasts, uh, where the, um, I’ve just walked past my neighbor who’s communicating with me.

Uh, who had to communicate to me in mime ’cause she could see me talking to my phone. Um, yeah, we don’t wanna buy into that. Um, but also, uh, we get a bit tired after a few weeks. It’s quite intense, and I don’t like working in a way that ever feels relentless. Um, I don’t like it. Don’t have to [00:04:00] do it, won’t do it.

All of the podcast wisdom is that you make more money and gain more followers if you keep going, uh, and never, ever stop, and I don’t want to do that, so I am not doing it. Um, so yeah, we’ll be back at the beginning of November. Fear not, and we’ve got some great guests. Most of them are al- already recorded.

We’ve got some really brilliant people, uh, so stick with us and maybe use the time to catch up on anything you’ve missed, or, you know, catch up on, on a few other podcasts that are out there. Uh, there’s some good ones, I believe. Um, but yeah, we will be taking a little break, and we’ll be taking a break in my mini breaks that I record as well, my special bonus podcast episodes, uh, for paid subscribers.

Um, I’ve just recorded a really fun one that’s coming out alongside this podcast. Um, they’re such good fun. I love, I love, love, love having people [00:05:00] who are listening sending in their idea for their dream retreat and reading them out every week. It just gives me so much joy, and the fantastic variety of ideas there are.

So, you know, please consider joining us if that appeals to you. Um, you can find links in, in the, uh, in the show notes on how to do that. But it’s so nice to have you guys along, um, and it feels like a really joyful little community. Uh, anyway, I need to tell you who we are talking to this week, and that is the wonderful Elizabeth Gilbert.

I don’t think she needs an introduction anymore, you know? I don’t think I need to say anything ’cause I think you’ll know exactly who you are. I bet we have a lot of Eat Pray Love fans listening. Uh, but of course, Liz has inspired us so many times over and over again. I’m by a road now. You can probably hear the cars [00:06:00] coming past.

I’m reaching my crescendo, and it just sounds like I’m in traffic. Sorry. Um, you know, with books like Big Magic, with wonderful novels like City of Girls, um, and her new book, All the Way to the River, has been, I think it’s fair to say, endlessly discussed and debated because actually, it’s Liz showing her much more vulnerable side and kind of opening up some of her life to us so that, you know, we can see a bit of the chaos behind it.

There’s always a bit of chaos behind everyone, and I’ve found it really, you know, sort of, I was about to say satisfying. That sounds mean. Um, but just actually to understand the kind of more rounded person behind this hugely inspirational figure, to sort of see her fallibility, has been really beautiful.

Um, but I think she’s really done a [00:07:00] solid for people who are affected by addiction, uh, and including sex and love addiction, which is, um, what, uh, is talked about an awful lot. Anyway, don’t know if you’ve read the book, but it’s out now in paperback. Uh, but I hope you’ll have a listen to the podcast, first of all.

I really had a great time chatting with Liz, and we both admitted our reluctance to get back to work which kind of made me happy. Uh, I’ll hand you over. I’ll stop talking, and I’ll be back after the pod

Elizabeth Gilbert, welcome to The Clearing.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Hi, friend. It’s good to see you. It’s been a minute.

Katherine May: We only get to talk in situations like this. We don’t get to talk- I know, I

Elizabeth Gilbert: know. We’re not allowed to actually have a, have a social life outside of podcasts and- … and state dinners.

Katherine May: Ah. It’s, oh, yes, state dinners.

Yes, that’s when I first met you in [00:08:00] person. That was a very fancy dinner. I quite enjoyed that one.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway, it’s nice to see you. Thanks for

Katherine May: having me on.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Oh,

Katherine May: thank you for g- thank you for agreeing to come on. How are you?

Elizabeth Gilbert: Oh, what a good question. Um- … I, today I feel very well. I slept well last night.

Something has happened to me during menopause where I feel like it’s really a coin toss every night- Yeah … as to whether sleep will occur. And um, and every night it’s a real nail-biter. Like- … I wonder if I will actually sleep. Won’t she? Yeah, will she or won’t she? Um, I feel like sleep used to be this talent that I had that seems- Oh

that I now seem to have lost. So when I don’t sleep, I get very cranky and fussy and resentful, and when I do sleep, it’s a beautiful world and everything is easy and great. So right now I feel like it’s a beautiful world and everything is easy and great.

Katherine May: I’m very glad for you. Do you have that thing where you wake up every hour as well?

Like, I, I sleep in these bursts of one hour now, and then I wake up and I’m like, “Oh, not [00:09:00] again. Come on.” Not again. Like, no time has

Elizabeth Gilbert: passed. We were, we were just here. Do you lis- Yeah … um, I have that. I also have a really fun thing, which is to instantly go to sleep for five minutes and then wake up for four hours.

Katherine May: I hate that. I absolutely hate that. That can go to hell, honestly. My body’s like, “Oh, we’ve slept.

Elizabeth Gilbert: We slept for seven and a half minutes, so now it’s time to never sleep again.” Um-

Katherine May: And at- Ugh … at 3:30 AM my body’s like, “Oh, we’re done now, aren’t we? This will do.” And I’m like, “No.”

Elizabeth Gilbert: Yeah. It’s like having a baby, except I’m the baby.

Katherine May: I know. Yeah, we’re the baby now. That’s it.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Gotta try to get the baby to go to sleep. Aw. Um, uh, so but I’m, but today I feel rested. Um, I feel bright and gladsome. Um, I’m, and I’m happy to be here.

Katherine May: Aw. We’re really happy to have you. And I really wanted to ask before we get into, you know, your dream rest, because I’ve got a feeling you’re gonna be really good at this.

But- Mm … I really wanted to ask how it’s been landing, talking about such a painful part [00:10:00] of your life. Because, I mean, I also write memoir, and it’s fine when you’re writing it. I mean, it, you know, you often write it through tears, and you go through all the emotions and, you know, that, that’s part of the process.

But it’s often the bit where you’re talking to other people about it that I f- I often find really wrenching. So how are you doing?

Elizabeth Gilbert: Well, um, wrenched.

Katherine May: Mm. Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: I, um, y- you know, the book was difficult to live.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, and I had to recover from living that story for several years before I was well enough to write about it.

Mm-hmm. It was difficult to write, and then I had to recover from writing it, and then it was difficult to publish, and then I had to recover from publishing it. And all three of those things were particularly hard and harder than anything I’d ever been through around a book. And, um, wisely, my higher [00:11:00] power, my guiding source instructed me that after the hardcover release of All the Way to the River was done and all my touring was done and all my interviews were done, that I was to draw a line in the sand starting on the 22nd of March of this year and take six months to, um To do nothing public facing other than my Substack, which doesn’t feel like work.

And, and it’s the first time in my life I’ve ever taken a sabbatical. Wow. And, um, we can talk about what that felt like. But, uh, so I’m coming out of that right now-

Katherine May: Mm …

Elizabeth Gilbert: crankily, not wanting- I thought, what I thought it would wind up- Being dragged back into public. Oh, 100%. And, um, and, and, and, you know, insert here all my requisite gratitude that I get to do this work and have this career and be published, and of course that’s also true.

And, um, it’s not even so much about this book. Having been somebody who has been in the hustle [00:12:00] and in the grind really hard my whole entire life, and having never stopped. Yeah. Like, even when I did my amazing Eat Pray Love journey, I was writing the entire time. I was creating that book the entire time. I was working as I was- Because that’s what we

Katherine May: do.

Elizabeth Gilbert: That’s what we do.

Katherine May: Yeah. We don’t

Elizabeth Gilbert: stop. And one of my rules of my sabbatical was no writing. Mm. Um, no creating. No, no projects. No. No getting into the best shape of your life. No learning a, a second language. No coming out of that with a book proposal. Like, none of those things. Just being in nature. Not, not even a

Katherine May: tiny little book proposal?

Elizabeth Gilbert: Not even like a- Not even a teeny tiny- … a little- … little baby book proposal. And I actually thought that I would come out of it like shot out of a cannon and ready to work, and actually- Mm … I think it’s

Katherine May: destroyed my work ethic. Oh.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Because I, I had, um, first I went through withdrawal for the first month or two, and then I slid into it, and then I’m, now I’m wondering why would I ever wanna work so hard again.

Um- Yeah … I had such a [00:13:00] wonderful experience in sabbatical. So that’s where you’re finding me. You’re finding me. You’re the second interview I’m doing back- Oh, wow … into this public facing role. Oh, I

Katherine May: have, like,

Elizabeth Gilbert: 10 other ones. And thank God it’s you. New ones. Yeah, I know, but thank God it’s you, ’cause you get, you know, it’s us.

Oh. You get it. Um- I really get it … so it’s been, it’s an interesting moment.

Katherine May: Well, I, it’s really funny. I’m, I am gonna ask you what you, what you did or didn’t do during your sabbatical, but th- that chimes with the conversation that I’ve been having with loads of my writer friends lately, which is I, it feels like the discourse has reached a sort of level where it’s actually becoming quite hard to handle, and I think we’re all feeling a little kind of tender-skinned about life online now.

We’re all feeling a little bit aversive, and it just feels like a incredibly noisy marketplace to find yourself in. And it’s full of, like, really interesting things and really amazing people, but there’s something [00:14:00] absolutely exhausting about it. And I, I think a lot of people are feeling that need to just switch it all off really now.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And I don’t think it’s only people in the publishing world. I- Mm … I am hearing something, I’m hearing an echo of my own voice, especially amongst women, and especially amongst women over 50, um, who are saying, “I can’t do this anymore.” And then you can- Yeah … insert this, whatever the thing was that they’ve been doing that we just continued to do, and do, and do.

Katherine May: Ah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And sometimes this thing that I can’t do anymore is a marriage, and sometimes it’s a job, and sometimes it’s a, a position in the family. Sometimes it’s, you know, it’s all sorts of things. But there’s the… Something’s happening. It could be that the world is kind of grinding us down, and I, and I do wonder too- You think- I, I can’t think why, but I think so.

But I, I wonder too if like, [00:15:00] I wonder too if there… it feels like a kind of soul, a strike that’s happening within the soul of I actually- Yeah … don’t want to contribute to this anymore. Yeah. Um, to this capitalist machine anymore. And there’s no enemy in my world. I love all the people that I work with in the publishing world.

Mm. It’s really hard for them as well. I’ve had some really- Ugh … candid conversations with them. So

Katherine May: hard for them.

Elizabeth Gilbert: They’re spending… You know, I went out there with this book and, you know, was so vulnerable in public, and got- Yeah … a lot of love and a lot of hate. Um, and it was intense for me. But their every single day now is putting out fires of- Wow

um, of scandal- like, just invented scandals and internet outrage, and, um, like, this is… I’m not sure who’s having fun doing this anymore. No. No. Um, and- No … um, so I don’t know what this means. Um, and until I know- Ah … I’m just gonna sit quietly [00:16:00] watching it. Except for, for the next- Or actually- … two weeks when I’m in it promoting- Yeah.

the paperback. Which is now

Katherine May: available

Elizabeth Gilbert: for

Katherine May: sale on- I think I’m even trying not to look … bookt- Yay.

Elizabeth Gilbert: She

Katherine May: has a book out, everybody. Where to find books. It’s really important. Where to find books is sold. It’s very good. Um, yeah. And, and people have found it absolutely fascinating and can’t stop talking about it, and I think that’s probably why it’s so very hard for its author.

Because when people have that lel- level of fascination pointed towards you, and you are an author that attracts a lot of fascination, that’s a lot of attention to be receiving.

Elizabeth Gilbert: You know, it’s, memoir is hard, and you know this. It’s, um-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Elizabeth Gilbert: it’s, I write novels too, and I find them so much more fun to- Mm … to write and to publish.

Novels are harder, more, more, I feel like for me, I find them to be more creatively and artistically challenging. Yeah. Because you have to build a world and, [00:17:00] you know, invent all of this stuff, but you’re, there’s a freedom in it, um, that, that I find kind of electrifying, where you can go in any direction and-

Katherine May: Yeah

Elizabeth Gilbert: anything can happen. And, and, and in writing memoir, I always feel the burden of a tremendous responsibility to the truth, um, and the weight of like, you know, is this perspective that I’m sharing accurate? Is this perspective that I’m sharing fair? Is it okay to share this? Mm-hmm. How do I protect these people who didn’t ask to be in this book?

How do I not tell about this part while also kind of subtly pointing to this? How… Like, there’s so many ethical, um- Uh, maneuvers-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Elizabeth Gilbert: that, that one has to do, that every single time I finish writing a memoir, I say I’m never, ever, ever doing this again. And now I’ve written three of them. Yeah. So I don’t know how trustworthy I am about never doing it again.

You’re gonna keep doing

Katherine May: [00:18:00] it.

Elizabeth Gilbert: But ugh. Not, not this year.

Katherine May: Yeah,

Elizabeth Gilbert: give it a couple years. Now watching you write a memoir about sabbatical and ruin my whole sabbatical vibe. Um, but uh- Don’t write that

Katherine May: memoir.

Elizabeth Gilbert: So, so it’s, it’s intense, and it’s intense, you know, um, I had a wonderful experience one time at a meditation retreat where the instructor was up on stage, and she invited somebody…

There was somebody in the audience who had a question, and she invited the woman to come up on the stage at a, in a fairly large group of people, to come and sit and talk with her on stage in a chair. And when the woman from the audience got on stage, she was evi- you know, just obviously very nervous. And- Hmm

and the meditation teacher said, like, “T- tell us what’s happening with you right now.” And the woman said, “I, I just feel so self-conscious because I feel like everyone in the room is looking at me. I feel like everyone in the room is judging me. I feel like everyone- Hmm … in the room is looking at my hair, and my shoes, and my clothing, and the way I talk, and coming to conclusions about me.”

And [00:19:00] I fell so in love with the meditation teacher in that moment because she didn’t say that- Oh, no one’s looking at you … completely patly. Yeah. It’s fine. Yeah. She didn’t say that thing that people say, which is, “People aren’t thinking about you. They’re only thinking about themselves,” which isn’t true.

She said, um, “Oh, no, that’s exactly what’s happening. Um, that’s precisely what’s happening. As you walked up the aisle-” Yeah … “I looked at your hair. I looked at your clothing.” Hmm. “I looked at your shoes. Um, I came to conclusions. You’re doing that with me when I’m sitting here. This is what humans do. We look at each other, and we judge, and we criticize, and we come to conclusions about each other, and it’s frightening to…”

Hmm. And, and she’s like, “And that is the way of things here-” Yeah … “in this realm,” you know? Um. Yeah. “And how courageous of you to walk through that gauntlet, and come up here, and expose yourself to that thing that is, that is occurring.” And I feel like she gave that woman her reality back in that, in that moment, ’cause that’s what the woman was feeling, and she wasn’t wrong.

And, and so I think anybody who does [00:20:00] Walk up onto that stage Yep. Just sort of like turn around slowly and say, “Inspect completely what I have created here.”

Katherine May: Mm.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, it is, it, it’s, it is scary even if you’ve done it multiple

Katherine May: times.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And I…

Katherine May: Yeah, and I think, you know, we become aware that people are looking at our hair and our shoes, and we’re- Yeah

not offering them hair and shoes. We’re offering them words, but that doesn’t stop people from wanting to talk to you about your shoes, and where you got them, and whether they like them or not, or- … whether they’d have chosen that brand of lip balm that you’ve happened to mention in passing that you kinda like, you know?

And it’s, it’s very hard to be under that level of scrutiny, and I think we’ve told ourselves for ages that it’s fine and it’s normal, and you just have to develop a hard skin. The last thing you wanna develop is a hard skin in this world. It’s a-

Elizabeth Gilbert: Mm …

Katherine May: a hard skin is a terrible thing to have to develop. And actually, it’s really reasonable to evade that and have a [00:21:00] sabbatical.

What did you do?

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, yeah. I also just wanna, uh, throw one more thing in there- … for everybody because everybody is so exposed now. Yeah. You don’t have to be a public figure to be exposed in public and- Yeah … critiqued by strangers. Everybody is who’s online. Um, I wish I could remember who said this, but somebody, uh, a few years ago, I heard say that social media is like a party drug that we all started doing, and it was really, really, really fun.

And now we’re all addicted to it, and it isn’t fun. It- Yeah … it’s exactly like a drug, that we can’t put it down, and it stopped being fun a long time ago. Um, and, and now nobody knows how to get off of it. Yeah. It’s really true. Um, so, uh, what did I do on my sabbatical? Okay. I, I, it was a lo- I’m so nosy. I’m

Katherine May: so sorry.

Elizabeth Gilbert: No, it’s okay. It’s, it’s fun to talk about. I haven’t talked about it yet. It’s, um- A lot of it was about what I didn’t do. Mm. Um, and there [00:22:00] was… So I put a lot of boundaries up, and one of the things was I established it, which was, which took a year and a half. So it was, you know, 18 months before my sabbatical, I set the dates for my sabbatical.

Because- Wow … like everyone, I have a really busy life, and you can’t… I don’t tr- I don’t wanna do drastic things anymore. I don’t wanna have to, like- Yeah … blow up my life and run away and hide anymore, so I planned it, and, and I let everybody in my life know, from this date to this date, and I let everyone know what the parameters were.

And like, “I am not available.” And, and I had to hold that very… I had to hold that very hard because a lot of things came that were invite, you know? Of course. Yeah. And some of them were delicious invitations, like, um, “Come to France with me and my friend and take a drawing class.” Oh. And some of them were, “Do this interview,” you know?

Um, and I said no to both.

Katherine May: Mm.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, because one of the other rules of my [00:23:00] sabbatical was it wasn’t a travel adventure. Um, because- Interesting … traveling is not the same thing as resting.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, traveling I obviously love, but it’s not the same thing as resting. And, and so I didn’t travel, and I didn’t create anything, and I didn’t have any proj- I didn’t have any big personal development projects.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, and I was allowed to… I study Spanish, so I was allowed to study Spanish for, you know, half an hour, an hour a day- … just to keep up with it, but that was about it. Um, I didn’t set body goals.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, because that’s also not sabbatical. And, uh, and one of the ways I prepared for it was reading a book called, um, The Sabbath by-

Katherine May: I love this book

Herschel. Herschel, yeah. Do you know this

Elizabeth Gilbert: book?

Katherine May: Yeah, I do. Oh. I quote it in my new book quite extensively. Gosh. It’s beautiful. Isn’t it the most incredible book? Yes. Joshua Abraham Herschel, I think. Yeah. Oh,

Elizabeth Gilbert: yes.

Katherine May: That’s right. It’s from, like, what, 1950- From the ‘

Elizabeth Gilbert: 50s …

Katherine May: 2? [00:24:00] Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Yeah. And he’s a rabbi. And he was a Holocaust, um- Yeah

a rabbi who’s, who had fled the Holocaust in Europe- Mm-hmm … and he came and he taught, I think, at Columbia University in New York. Oh,

Katherine May: really? Okay.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Yeah. And he kept the Sabbath. Um, and he wrote about the holy and spiritual meaning of a day of Sabbath. And- Yeah … oh, gosh. So you, I don’t have to tell you how beautiful that

Katherine May: book is.

I love it. I’m such a fan of that book. And the way that it talks about time, like what time becomes- Oh, my Lord … when we do nothing, and, and the way that it kind of expands and that we can kind of find God in time, rather than space. That, that we think that space is the thing, but it’s actually time. That’s the true eternal quality.

Out of

Elizabeth Gilbert: time. And, and, and I loved this- Oh, I love that you love that book

Katherine May: too.

Elizabeth Gilbert: I love it so much. And I, the, the piece I took away was him saying that the reason they have what looks, can look from the outside of these arbitrary restrictions on, on- Mm-hmm … in traditional Jewish culture about what you’re not allowed to do on the [00:25:00] Sabbath.

Yeah. For instance, you can read, but you can’t write.

Katherine May: Right.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, and, and the whole point is- You’re, you’re stopping the means of production because what you’re contemplating on that day is that the universe has already been created and doesn’t need you to create it. Mm. The world has already been created and does not need you to create it, and what you are to do on that day is to feel yourself in creation- Yeah

with creation, not m- doing creation. And, and I’ve also, you know, I’ve also heard that it, it became very important after the, you know, historically after the, the Jews escaped from Egypt and escaped from slavery, the Sabbath became a really important way of saying, “We aren’t slaves.”

Katherine May: Mm.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, we, we’re not gonna go from working seven days a week where someone was making us work to working seven days a week where we were making ourselves work.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and so it’s a, it’s an expression of your humanity as well, that you’re not [00:26:00] required to do nothing but labor. Mm. And, and I never knew that you weren’t required to do nothing but labor. And I- It’s very hard to imagine a world

Katherine May: without it, isn’t it? So what

Elizabeth Gilbert: I did, I went to the… There’s a, I, I spent a lot of time, um, in Connecticut where my family’s from.

There’s a little pond that I went to almost every day. Um, they don’t have cell phone signal there. I brought books. I read. I was, my, my My goal was to be available to the day, whatever the day- Mm … provided. And every morning I would wake up and I would say, “Dear God, please surprise and delight me today.” But I didn’t create the surprises and the delights.

Yeah. I just made myself available to them. And- ‘Cause

Katherine May: that was already part of creation.

Elizabeth Gilbert: That’s part of creation, is the, there’s surprises and delights everywhere. And so I didn’t do a single thing that anybody’s gonna make a movie about, that Julia Roberts is gonna wanna star in. Ah. I, I had a lot of meals- That’s a shame, ‘

Katherine May: cause we kind of like those, you know?

Elizabeth Gilbert: I know. I had a lot… [00:27:00] I spent a lot of time with my friends, um, lot of time. Mm. And a lot of really beautiful conversations with my friends’ teenage kids, um, and just being with them before they all go off to college. And, but I’ll tell you my very, very, very best moment of my whole sabbatical was I was walking my dog, um, on a street I’d never walked down before, and there was a little clapboard house with, um, a little fence outside, and an old man was watering his garden.

And he stopped to talk to my dog and to me, and we got to com- conversing, and he said to me, “My wife is, um, getting older, and it’s hard for her to go out. But one of her favorite things to do in the world is to sit on a porch and talk to people. Would you be willing to come and sit on the porch and talk to her?”

Aw. And I was like, “I… Well, absolutely, sir. I have no plans for the next four months.” Like… And just right there, I just went and sat on the porch, and he brought her out, and he brought out tea, and we sat and had tea [00:28:00] and talked for hours. And I heard her whole life story and the, you know, the light changed.

Oh, that’s lovely. It went from afternoon to evening. And- Nowhere in my life would I have had the space for that No You know? No I’d be like, “Oh, I would love to.” You’d said, “Oh,

Katherine May: I’m so sorry. I’ve gotta…”

Elizabeth Gilbert: Yeah. I know. Yeah. So sorry. That sounds great I would love to, but I’m already 20 minutes late for the thing that I-

Katherine May: Yeah

Elizabeth Gilbert: if I don’t do it today, it’s not gonna get done. So that’s what I did. I just- Ah … I just made myself present to, um, the world as it was happening, rather than f- building a world.

Katherine May: Oh, that’s a rare and beautiful thing. You had a whole sixth month of Sabbath.

Elizabeth Gilbert: It was great. And I, I am- That’s really

Katherine May: nice …

Elizabeth Gilbert: I, I, like I said, I don’t really wanna stop.

Katherine May: I know. I’m so sorry to be dragging you out. No, it’s okay. I had- We can talk … I had, like, a couple of weeks away, and I’ve been really resentful all today- Oh … ’cause this is my first day back to work. And I’ve been like, “I don’t wanna do this. I don’t wanna talk to anyone. I don’t wanna answer an email. This is just such an affront to my personhood.”

You’ve had six months of it. [00:29:00] Oh, it’s so good. It’s so- A week ago I was swimming with a seal, and now I’ve gotta do this, you know? Now I’ve gotta talk to Elizabeth Gilbert. That, that did actually help me through the day. I was like, “Well, at least it’s something really good.” But I did have to sit at my desk, which made me very upset.

So I’m gonna ask you to kind of enter our clearing and share your dream of a, an ideal retreat, but I wonder if you’ve already had it. I feel a little bit like this is, this perfect retreat’s happened. But where are you gonna take us for your ideal getaway?

Elizabeth Gilbert: I’m gonna take you to the Caribbean coast of Costa Rica- That sounds nice

to a town called Puerto Viejo. Um, and-

Katherine May: I’ve been doing Spanish on Duolingo. That means old port.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Look at

Katherine May: you. I’m so proud. [00:30:00]

Elizabeth Gilbert: You, you… Your ancestors are proud of you. All the spirits are proud of you. I’m proud of you. Lily on Duolingo is… And they’re all proud of you. Lily, Lily is not proud

Katherine May: of anyone, Lily on Duolingo.

She’s

Elizabeth Gilbert: not proud of anybody.

Katherine May: Lily is not impressed.

Elizabeth Gilbert: She’s, she’s reluctantly impressed.

Katherine May: Yeah. Let’s be clear.

Elizabeth Gilbert: So what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna go to this beach, um, called Playa Negra, which means black, black beach. Yes. Which is a black sand, volcanic sand beach.

Katherine May: Volcanic. I love a volcanic beach.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And it’s just a…

You know, Costa Rica has… They care a lot about trying to preserve what they’ve got- Yeah … in terms of natural beauty, and it’s… They don’t do it perfectly because life isn’t perfect, but they care about it more than almost anywhere in the world that I’ve ever been. Wow. And they try really hard. And one of the things that they do is they’ve s- made a law that you can’t build on any beaches anymore.

So whatever buildings are on beaches are there, but there’ll never be any new [00:31:00] ones. And so you can walk down the beach at Playa Negra for, I’m gonna say four or five miles.

Katherine May: Wow.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And, and to… If you’re walking in one direction, to your right will be the Caribbean, and to your left will be jungle, and sand, and monkeys- Ah

and birds. And, um, and even though there’s houses set back and buildings set back, you d- you have no sense that there’s anybody there. I’ve swum naked on that beach. And, um- Ah … so that’s where we’re gonna go. We’re gonna- Ah … we’re gonna go there. Yes, please. And we’re gonna ride our bicycles into town, um, down this dirt road to get food when we need it.

And- Ah … um, and then in the evenings, we’re gonna take a drive, and we’re gonna go to another beach, Punta Uva, and we’re gonna watch the sun go down on a white sand beach that looks like a picture postcard- All the colors of beach- … of a tropical beach … are available

Katherine May: for us

Elizabeth Gilbert: today. We’re gonna just… We’re gonna see [00:32:00] every kind of sand- Ah

that there is. And we’re gonna watch all these local families have their dinners on the beach, and their kids play soccer, and we’re gonna see dolphins, and we’re gonna see pelicans, and that’s what… That’s how the night will end.

Katherine May: I mean, this sounds absolutely lovely. Tell me, when you, when you kind of dream of getting away from it, do you imagine yourself alone?

Are you someone that enjoys solitude or, or do you prefer to, to be with company?

Elizabeth Gilbert: I always imagine myself alone.

Katherine May: Ah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, it’d be nice to- I’m trying to think if it’s true that it would be nice. I’m, like, trying to be polite. No, I’m alone. Would it be not? I, I was just, I was just running through it. I mean, I love and my friends are very dear to me, but there’s something that I can only experience when I’m alone.

Right. And, um, I can only access it in solitude, and I dare say that the happiest moments of my life, there’s been nobody in the room but me. [00:33:00] And, um, and so yeah, I picture myself just there with nobody to- Yeah … to mind. I do a lot of … I’m an introvert trapped in an extrovert’s body. I, I present as very social, and I am very social, but in order to, um, become visible to myself, I need to, I need to be alone.

I feel the most authentic when I’m alone. Yeah. Um, I, I feel the most like myself, and I feel the closest to God, I feel the closest to inspiration, um, and I feel the least anxious.

Katherine May: Yeah. That’s really interesting. I mean, you, you touch on this in All the Way to the River, th- that that’s something that you kind of have to learn ultimately at the end of the book to actually not, not

I was about to say not need other people. That’s not the right way to say it, is it? But not to kind of crave the [00:34:00] buffer that other people provide you and the relationship that you can make with them, but instead to really develop that relationship with yourself. And it, it sounds like you’ve come a long way, baby.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Well, I, I really have. Thank you for pointing that out. And my, my MO for most of my life was just to take somebody hostage into my- … solitude with me. Um, I have a friend whose definition of intimacy is, um, uh, we hide, we hide from the world while you hold me forever, right? Like, that’s- Uh-huh … you know, that’s what I was always trying to actually get.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: I’m gonna go- Yeah … into a cave, and I’m gonna take you hostage in my cave with me.

Katherine May: Um- And I’m

Elizabeth Gilbert: gonna cling

Katherine May: to you for dear

Elizabeth Gilbert: life. And I’m gonna cling to you and be a vampire squid. Um, so that’s the thing that I’ve had to learn how to not do. Mm. Um, because it doesn’t end well for me, and it doesn’t end well for them.

Yeah. And, and so it’s not about not needing people. I, I … You know, we’re interconnected, and we all need one [00:35:00] another. I do feel that I do a lot better and my life goes more smoothly when Well, a- another friend of mine put it this way, “Everything I used to think I had to get from one man, I now recognize I can only get from a group of women.”

So I do really well-

Katherine May: Isn’t that just the course of female life?

Elizabeth Gilbert: Isn’t it? And then you’re like, “Oh, it’s… Oh, God, it’s like all the women who are my support and who are my, my… This is where all of my nourishment comes from,” and not from one, but from what happens inside of that group. And, um, so that’s been an incredible education as well.

Um-

Katherine May: That’s so interesting as an insight because I, I think when I was younger, like, I was always craving that perfect best friend, you know? Not the perfect boyfriend. I wanted that too, but I wanted that perfect best friend that you were everything to each other, like, you know, Gayle and Oprah. And, like, it was really, like, really, really sort of mutually devoted.

And now it’s all about that group and what [00:36:00] is held in a, in a group of women, and how much, like, raw power is generated in a group of middle-aged women. It’s, it’s actually really… It’s like a very potent stew, isn’t it? Like, what we, what we do together. Or I think you can, we can

Elizabeth Gilbert: just go ahead and call it a coven.

Katherine May: Yeah, I mean, sorry, I-

Elizabeth Gilbert: We’re saying group … don’t know why we’re being

Katherine May: polite. It

Elizabeth Gilbert: gets witchy

Katherine May: pretty

Elizabeth Gilbert: quick. We’re saying group, but we mean coven.

Katherine May: Yeah,

Elizabeth Gilbert: we mean coven. Yeah. You know? And, um, um, and, and the beautiful thing about the coven as well is that collective wisdom with its, all these women who are older, like the centuries- Yeah

of collective wisdom that, that every one of them has, that we’ve gathered and that now all go into the stew. And the feeling I have of, like, not one, no one single person is responsible for me, nor I for them.

Katherine May: Mm.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, and yet someone’s always available.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And sometimes I’m the one who’s available. It’s

Katherine May: care

Elizabeth Gilbert: is enormous.

Yeah. Yeah. Somebody, sometimes I’m not the one who’s available, sometimes I’m the one who needs someone who’s available. Yeah. But the group collectively takes [00:37:00] care of its own and- Yeah … but no one person needs to be single-handedly responsible for anybody else. And we all also at, at our age, I think have learned how to be responsible for ourselves.

Um, we’re more anchored.

Katherine May: Absolutely. And also, this is how society used to function. Yeah. Like, actually it was run by groups of women- Yeah … who were all incredibly independent and competent, but also who took care of each other. It’s like a, I don’t know, it’s like a kind of structure almost where every part supports the other.

I’m sure there’s a name for this, that I’m, I’m not, you know, but like a- I think it’s

Elizabeth Gilbert: called a coven.

Katherine May: A coven? Yeah. Let’s just… Because it’s become so important in my life at this stage. It’s just a-

Elizabeth Gilbert: Same …

Katherine May: yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Same.

Katherine May: Yeah. So you’re, you must have a little bit of contact with your coven on this, on this kind of dream getaway, right?

Like, I’m-

Elizabeth Gilbert: Well, that’s why I hesitated when you said, “Is anybody there?” Yeah. ‘Cause I was running through, now if it [00:38:00] were a long-term thing, like if we’re just talking about a retreat w- that I’m gonna go do by myself- Uh-huh … for a limited period of time, I wanna do it by myself. But if we’re talking about like a cha- like living in the clearing-

then what I picture is the dream that every woman I know has, which is-

Katherine May: A nunnery.

Elizabeth Gilbert: We each get a tiny house or- Yeah … we, you know, and we’re all sharing land, you know. Mm-hmm. Or we’re in the convent. Yep. We turn the coven to a convent, um, and back again. Uh, or we, you know, I was just in Los Angeles with one of my best friends and we were…

They have these incredible little tiny bungalows in Los Angeles built in the 1920s and ’30s that where there’ll be like eight of them in a little row set back from the, the boulevard. Right. And each one has, is like a one-bedroom little bungalow. Mm. But then you could come and sit outside and talk to each other.

So the, the idea that we each get our own space, we’re together- Yeah … but we have our solitude is, is- It’s ideal … is what I hear every older woman saying [00:39:00] that she wants. Yeah. Um, you know, much more than dreaming of a guy.

Katherine May: Oh. We’ve stopped dreaming of the guy. We have these, um, sort of quite old, uh, living arrangements called almshouses that, uh, that kind of people used to set up for as a sort of philanthropic act.

And they are, uh, uh, exactly as you describe, like little… They’re for old people, but they are little tiny houses with shared space. And it just seems to me a perfect way to live. Like, I don’t need a big house. Mm-hmm. I need enough space for my books. That’s the only thing that would truly trouble me. Um, but having your little pod that you can retreat to when everything gets too much, but also being in that space together is, is the dream.

It’s

Elizabeth Gilbert: so good. It’s so good. Yeah.

Katherine May: So, so good. So tell me, what do you bring with you? Do you have like a special something that always travels with you? Or are you more practical than that

Elizabeth Gilbert: Uh, yeah, I have [00:40:00] a very special talismanic thing that always travels with me, and it’s called Pepita, and it’s my dog. Oh.

Um, and so she will be coming. Um, and she and I spent every single day for the last six months together. Oh. And that’s… We have both talked about it And we both agree that that’s what life should be. That we, that I need to arrange my life so that we can be together all the time. We both much prefer it to any other option.

Yeah. So she does come with me when I go to Costa Rica every year. Um, she flies with me. She’s small enough to be able to do that. Oh, that’s nice. She’s an incredibly adept traveler. Um, everybody in this community knows her. Um, they know I’m home because they see her running down the beach. And, uh, so she’ll be with me.

Um, and- Perfect … Ann Patchett has written extensively about how every woman who’s a writer needs a dog. Um, it, to, to make you take breaks and go outside and stretch your legs and get into the s- Yeah … sunlight and have somebody to [00:41:00] talk to while you’re in your solitude. So she’ll be coming. Um, my yoga mat will be coming with me.

Katherine May: Uh-huh.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And, um, my journal. And, uh, what other… I have a, actually, I have a little box. I have an apartment in Costa Rica, but it’s in the city. But I have a little box that’s called my, my forever box, and it’s a, it’s a little plastic bin filled with the things I just throw in the back of a car for any trip in Costa Rica.

So it’s got bug spray and incense and emergency flashlights and, um, uh, water shoes, um, sunglasses that can be lost. Uh, a, uh, you know, a rash guard for, for swimming in the sun. That’s a thing.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, uh, goggles. Um, so it’s just, it’s, it’s just got everything in there. I- And dog food. This is very practical.

Dog food, dog treats. Of course. Yeah. And, um, and, and d- and dog snacks. [00:42:00] And I just- Always the dog snacks. … when I’m ready to go on an adventure, I just throw it in the trunk. That’s such a good idea. And, um, and off we go. It’s called my forever box.

Katherine May: I love that. My friend, uh, Caroline Donahue, has written about her, um, her sort of pouches.

She’s got a whole system of pouches. She’ll be delighted I’m talking about this. But she, she has, like, a range of pouches that are sort of ready to go with, you know, like, the sort of… I don’t know. There’s a charging pouch, and there’s a-

Elizabeth Gilbert: Yeah. Yes, exactly … I

Katherine May: mean, we all need a charging pouch in this day and age.

Everything always needs charging. And there’s, I mean, her, her kind of standard packing, uh, like, toiletries pouch, which is just always ready to go. And I, honestly, it’s like a lifestyle you can adopt because I now, she spread it to me that I now have this kind of whole life full of ready-pack pouches because I, uh, then I just don’t have to think about things.

Like, my whole life is about not having to think about stuff anymore. Just, it’s ready, so I can go. I’m going away for a weekend. There goes the pouch. It’s [00:43:00] just It’s a system, but I love your books It’s

Elizabeth Gilbert: delicious I want to- It’s delicious. You know, I mean, Einstein famously just had several of the same suit made and wore it all the time because he didn’t want to have to give any thought to what he was wearing, and that’s also why I buzzed my hair off.

Um- Mm … and because I just, I’m like, I don’t… The number of minutes of my life that I want to spend in the rest of my wild and precious life thinking about my hair or zero minutes Blow-drying

Um, and so that’s- Yeah … why one of the things I have is a buzz, is a buzz cutter to buzz my hair off. And that just makes jumping- Is that in the box? It’s in the box, yep. It’s, it makes jumping into the ocean and into rivers-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Elizabeth Gilbert: so much more easy and, and free.

Katherine May: That’s great. I think I’ve always wanted to be the kind of person that has a, a uniform, you know?

Not, not as kind of working uniform- Yeah … but the kind of person that has, like, 20 of the same shirt, 20 of the same [00:44:00] trousers, two pairs of the same shoe. Do you know what I mean? Like, I’ve- Yeah … I’ve not got there yet, ’cause I get all like, “Ooh, little nice little thing.” Yeah. “Let’s buy that.” Look

Elizabeth Gilbert: how cute and fussy this thing is.

Katherine May: Ooh, this is so cute. I’ll never wear it, but I’m gonna buy it. Let me buy another dress that I won’t wear.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Exactly.

Katherine May: Let me vary my shoes again. Yeah. But I always end up in Birkenstocks.

Elizabeth Gilbert: We always end up wearing the same four things every week, you know? It’s true. We just have a closet filled with other things that we thought we wanted.

Katherine May: Yeah. Just to, just to occasionally kind of leaf through it yearningly. Like, “

Elizabeth Gilbert: Oh, this color.” I think, I think Oprah calls them closet trophies. And, um- Mm … I, and closet trophies, the way I understand a closet trophy, is something that you spent a lot of money on that’s really beautiful that you can’t get rid of because you spent- Combats wear

a lot of money on it, and it’s really beautiful. So it just sits there in your closet like this gleaming trophy, but never ever once in the history of ever have you worn it or wa- or will you ever.

Katherine May: I, when Enchantment came out, what, three years ago now, I [00:45:00] lost my mind in the run-up to it, and I bought myself a wardrobe full of sequins.

Nice. What did I think I was gonna do? What was, what on earth was I gonna do? I was gonna sit- You were gonna

Elizabeth Gilbert: take tango classes.

Katherine May: I wasn’t, though, was I? I was gonna sit at my desk being interviewed for podcasts over and over again not wearing sequins, ’cause they’re actually really uncomfortable. They itch, they prickle.

They all go out of line- Oh … and you end up like … Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And, and I’m sure producers don’t want them on TV because they’re distracting- No, they don’t want … and they hit the light. It’s the, the worst thing- The sequins … you could possibly wear on screen. Katherine, what in the world were you thinking?

Katherine May: I don’t know.

I lost my mind, and I decided that I was suddenly gonna become the sequins girl.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Love it.

Katherine May: I am not a sequins girl.

Okay. You’re much more practical than me. I’m very glad to hear it.

Elizabeth Gilbert: No, I’ve got my versions of that. Yeah.

Katherine May: Um, we also always ask our guests if they would like to bring, like, a cultural [00:46:00] artifact to kind of contemplate or to keep them company or to spark ideas. Is there something that you, that we could install for you in?

Elizabeth Gilbert: I, I, e- uh, even though it’s not of my culture, my favorite Of all the human depictions of divinity and what, what it looks like and how it works is the Shiva Nataraja, the dancing Shiva, which is-

Katherine May: Mm …

Elizabeth Gilbert: um, I’m looking around to see if I’ve got one down here. I don’t have one down here, I would show it. But it’s…

You’d recognize it if you saw it. Sure. It’s a, it’s a dancing four, four-legged, two-legged, four-armed, um-

Katherine May: That’s right. Four-armed …

Elizabeth Gilbert: deity standing in a, in a circle of flame. Mm-hmm. And, um, and I would take that. That’s, that… I love to contemplate that, um, because there’s a meaning to each one of the hands and the, the mudras, the hand signals that, that the, that the deity, that Shiva [00:47:00] is making.

And in one he holds a drum, which is creation. Like, it’s like- Mm … and it’s all happening on this, like, cross.

Katherine May: Mm.

Elizabeth Gilbert: That a cross, a, you know, on the horizontal of the cross there’s a drum of creation which is, like, drumming into existence the moment, and then the other hand is, is sort of like, like a policeman saying, “Stop,” which is this pause of- Mm

right now this is happening in this moment. And then, um, in the other hand, in the final hand, there’s, like, a… He’s holding flame, which is like, and then it will be destroyed. And that’s how… That is what life in this plane is. Something arises- Yeah … it’s there for a moment, and then it’s destroyed. It arises, it’s there for a moment, and then it’s destroyed.

And he’s standing in this circle because it just never stops. Yeah. That, um… And then with his fourth hand, he’s pointing down at his feet, ’cause he’s standing on one foot and he’s got his other foot kind of crocked, um, cocked up, and he’s pointing at that. And he’s standing on a baby, what looks like a baby, but it’s this [00:48:00] demon, and it’s the demon of forgetfulness.

It’s the demon that makes us forget that all of this is happening. That this is- Mm … the, the, there’s this temporary thing that’s going on that is perfectly natural, that something should come into being, be there for a while, and then disappear. And, and so the demon is, like, kind of trying to get him to forget that, and he’s standing on it, keeping it down, and pointing down at it with his other hand, being like, “Don’t forget.”

Like, “Don’t forget that this is-” Yeah … “totally normal and totally natural. Something exists. It, it’s, it’s sustained for a moment, and then it’s gone. It exists-” Mm “… it’s sustained for a moment, and then it’s gone.” And, and I take a lot of That makes a lot of sense to me Yeah And he’s dancing that dance always, and he’s dancing it in this circle of the flame of, of lifetimes and worlds that come into existence for a moment.

They, s- they’re there, and then they’re gone. And, um, and I find it very… And, and his face is very placid, ’cause he’s not disturbed by any of that. Yeah. Um, even [00:49:00] as he’s doing all of this, and creating and destroying and sustaining, um, he’s, he’s unbothered, as they say on the internet. Unbothered. And that, you know, I kind of like his…

I, I love a Buddha, I love a sitting Buddha, but I like that better because it shows the dynamism of life. Yeah. That the cha- what looks like chaos and, and, and drama, that you can be right in the center of all that, and you can be calm and unbothered. Mm. If you remember that it’s perfectly natural that that’s what’s going on.

So that’s what I would bring.

Katherine May: What a lovely thing to bring. It’s so great, because actually, that need to be reminded of life just being life, life being as it is over and over again, is, is just such a big human concern. ‘Cause we always are trying to fix things in place, and nothing will be fixed in place.

But nevertheless- It will not … we keep trying to do it.

Elizabeth Gilbert: It will not. And, and, and the universe is expanding and moving, [00:50:00] and all we ever try to do is containing and ho- Yeah … and hoarding. And it just goes so against the energetic reality, which is expansion and, and explosion. And we’re like, “No, keep it down.

Keep it safe.” “Keep it small.” Keep it

Katherine May: still.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Keep it still. Make it stop. And, um, you know, it can’t be stopped, and yet you can find serenity inside of all of that.

Katherine May: Yeah. Beautiful. I absolutely love that, and I love the thought of you spending time with that. Okay, so it’s time for you to come home now. How do you know when you’ve been away, ’cause you travel a lot, you have now had your amazing six-month sabbath experience.

What kind of signs come to you when it’s time to reenter the world? How do you know?

Elizabeth Gilbert: Mm. Gosh.

I think I start to feel a longing for my home.

Katherine May: Mm.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Um, as much as I love, um, [00:51:00] the new and the novel and- Yeah … the different and the fresh, um, and as much inspiration as I get from that and joy as I get from that. Um, I remember traveling with my ex-husband, who was such a traveler, and we’d been in Asia for a couple months, and I remember him just saying one day like, “I just want my own coffee pot.”

Um-

Katherine May: Oh, yes … “

Elizabeth Gilbert: I just want my own coffee pot. Like, I-” Mm. “These coffees we’re having are very nice, but nothing would be nicer than to just be in my own house with my own coffee pot.” So when I feel that sense- I’m like that

Katherine May: with my tea, my teapot. Yeah. Tea in my teapot, with my water, like, ’cause water tastes different the world over, and you just want- It

Elizabeth Gilbert: does

tea

Katherine May: to taste like tea again.

Elizabeth Gilbert: It does, yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah. It’s like

Elizabeth Gilbert: just my, my little routines. I, you know, because I travel so much, it didn’t happen so much during sabbatical, but, you know, I think I went to 26 or 30 cities when, when my book came out last [00:52:00] year in, I don’t know, five countries. And- Wow … um, and I travel anyway often.

It’s just my nature to be a, a traveler, or has been. Um- I do this thing where I, when I wake up in the morning, before I open my eyes, I try to guess where I am. And it, and sometimes it takes me a while to figure it out. Yeah. Like, and I just lay there and I try to recollect, where did I go to sleep last night?

And, um, and by the way, this isn’t because I’m a heavy drinker that I have to

Katherine May: Just go wandering about, not sure where I

Elizabeth Gilbert: am, but

Katherine May: no.

Elizabeth Gilbert: When I was… Exactly, no, I’m totally sober. But when I was in my 20s- … sometimes I would wake up and be like, “I wonder where I am and who this is next to me?” Yeah. You know? But- Yeah

um, but, but it’s different now where it’s- Those days are past. Those days are past. But now it’s, um, “Gee, I wonder what country I’m in, and I wonder what, where I am, am I in a hotel? Am I in an Airbnb?” Oh. “Am I at a friend’s house? Um, I wonder what I’m supposed to be doing today?” And, [00:53:00] and it, that thought is sort of fun, but also a little bit anxiety producing.

Yeah. And then when I, when I realize that I’m home, I get so excited.

I’m home in my house,

Katherine May: ah. Aw, that’s lovely. Yeah, so you get that longing eventually just to get home. I, I have to say, I’m always very reluctant to come home. I love it once I’m home, but I, I always have to be dragged kicking and screaming a bit. I- Do you? I’m always a bit like, “No.” Yeah. Like- Why is that? I don’t like routine.

And I- Ah … I really resent routine. Like the… And, and, you know, just minor routines like, oh God, I’m gonna have to load the dishwasher every day, and it’s just gonna be- Ew … I’m, I get very petulant about that. I, yeah, there’s always a bit of me that’s like, “But I could just be here forever.” Mm. “And just mill about and read books and write and, and like nibble on cheese instead of eating proper meals, and it’s just perfect.”

And I, I do get very, [00:54:00] very mournful about that.

Elizabeth Gilbert: Do you get mournful if you’ve been at a place where you feel like you didn’t have enough time and there were a few more things you wanted to do or see or-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Elizabeth Gilbert: experience? Um- I, I get that too, where, oh, we didn’t get a chance to go to that… For me, it’s not gonna be a museum, but it could be like a particular- It’s always a museum for me.

I love a museum. It’s never. I can’t… We’ll never get in a fight about museums. You can have them. I, but it w- Oh my … it could be a bookstore, a thrift shop, a-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Elizabeth Gilbert: a, a festival. Yeah. Like, oh, we’re leaving the day before the, the farmers market. You’re always leaving the

Katherine May: day before something. That’s

Elizabeth Gilbert: so true. You know, why are we leaving?

And, and I- Yeah … my grandmother had a wonderful thing she used to say to us when we were kids, and I, I just said it to my friends last week in Los Angeles, ’cause we had a moment of like, “Oh, no, we’re leaving before the- Yes … the Melrose Thrift Flea Market. Why, like, why don’t we stay another day?” And, um, my grandmother used to say, “Always leave something for next [00:55:00] time.”

Oh, she’s very wise. And, and I find that to be so comforting because first of all, it presupposes that there will be a next time. Mm. That you, that you might get to come back, and how special it will be next time to get to do that thing. Um, so. That is such great advice. Isn’t that sweet? Isn’t that good grandmotherly guidance?

Katherine May: That’s really lovely. Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. And is there just something you’d like to bring back home with you from your time away to remind you of your trip?

Elizabeth Gilbert: I do want to, but you’re not supposed to, so now I feel very guilty about this. There’s… When I was growing up, you were allowed to take seashells off the beach.

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Gilbert: And you were allowed to take stones off the beach, and now people get very fussy about it if you do.

Katherine May: I, I would say that 75% of our guests have bought a stone home, so I th- I think you’re probably all right.

I think you’re with- I would like- … in

Elizabeth Gilbert: good company. I would like to take a stone home, and, and if, and if I was lucky enough to find [00:56:00] a deceased butterfly on one of those jungle paths, especially the famous Costa Rican blue morpho moths, which- Mm … people call butterflies, but they’re actually moths, and they’re about the size of a pretty big saucer-

Katherine May: Oh,

Elizabeth Gilbert: wow

plate, and they are just the most extraordinary blue. Um, and, and if, if one of those had come to the natural end of its life and I found it when I was walking, I would bring that home too.

Katherine May: That sounds lovely. Liz, thank you so much for sharing this with us. It’s been an absolute joy.

Elizabeth Gilbert: It’s always a delight talking to you.

Thank you so much. I know neither one of us wanted to do this, and I loved it anyway.

Katherine May: I wanted to do it, uh, but I just didn’t want to enter the world. They’re two very different feelings.

Hello. Welcome back. I’m still pacing the streets avoiding the dog, uh, but I hope you really enjoyed that. It was, um, it was a [00:57:00] real pleasure and honor, and I was so thrilled when Liz said yes to talking to me. Um, I hope you really enjoyed it. I, I’m very grateful to her for so many things, uh, and that conversation is most certainly on that list.

I just, uh, always remember that when Wintering first came out, when nobody knew who I was in America, she gave me the most beautiful cover quote, which was incredibly generous of her, so, you know, it’s, uh… There’s some big personal gratitude there from me. Um, yeah. Well, I think I might have to head home now.

I don’t want to. I might have to burn a scented candle or something, but the dog is really, really happy. She is delighted with her smelly gift. Um, and dogs love things that smell disgusting, don’t they? It seems to be one of their favorite [00:58:00] things. But yeah, it’s a lovely day to reflect on what animals mean to us.

Those pets, how much we do for them and are willing to do for them, but how much they give to us back. Oh, I can’t imagine a house without pets, honestly. I used to have four cats, now I’m down to one, and I would, in a heartbeat, go back up to four again. Honestly, my future lies in being a cat lady, and I’m not ashamed to say it.

What lovely things we have. Anyway, you guys take lots of care, and I will see you after the break. I will be, I’d like to say putting my feet up. That’s not happening. I will be probably getting on with a bit of writing, getting ahead of myself with the promo for Tending when [00:59:00] it comes out in March. Just got through some really brilliant cover quotes for that incidentally, and feeling like very, very grateful and moved by that.

Um, and just generally letting my brain do the thing it does in order to produce more writing. That’s what I do. That’s my job. All right. Take lots of care, and I’ll see you soon. Bye.