Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello. It’s Katherine here, back in South West London on one of my meanders to a hospital.

Today I’m in somewhere a little more post-industrial, I’d say. There are some scars of old buildings on the ground

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello. It’s Katherine here, and I’m not gonna be moaning about how hot it is this week because it has rained and rained and rained over the last two d- Just outside in the garden in a rare break between rain showers, trying to rescue the dress I put on the washing line three days ago, which has just got rained on repeatedly ever since.

I think it still might start again, but it’s lovely out here today. It’s cooler, and the garden looks really grateful, frankly. There’s that lovely smell of, uh, roses after the rain. I’ve got this brilliant climbing rose that is, uh, full of little tiny pinkish [00:01:00] white flowers, and the smell of it right now, that fresh rose water smell, is just absolutely magnificent.

When it rains after so much hot dry weather, it’s like the whole of nature sighs in relief. And that’s a little bit how I’m feeling, quite honestly, ’cause it has been hot. I think I just heard some thunder though, so this, this might not go that well. Anyway, how are you? I am good. I’m at home, looking after my mom at home for a while, while she still waits for surgery, and that’s another little exhalation, I think, in my family right now.

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello. Katherine here. I am taking a little stroll along the beach and, ooh, I’ve got a stone in my shoe. Um- Do you know what? In a second I’m gonna come to a wider bit of the beach and I’m gonna drop down a little further towards the sea so that you can hear hopefully a little bit of the water and also a bit more shingle crunch.

Look, here we go. Let’s give it a try. I will get more stones in my shoe

Can you hear that? Is it a good crunch? Ooh, lovely, huh? Here comes the sea

I find myself here at high tide feeling a bit regretful that I didn’t [00:01:00] realize it was gonna be high tide. ‘Cause I would quite like to be neck-deep in that. It is a lovely color green today, and clear. Not too flat, but pretty calm. Lovely and white and foamy and crinkly at the edges.

Mm, nice bit of sea for us all. We deserve it. It’s what we need. I’m having A day full of tiny joys. First of all, seeing the sea and crunching on the shingle. But, um, as you know, in the sister podcast to this, I offer you a mini break every week, and I think I’ve had a mini, mini break today that’s just too mini to include as a mini break, so I’m gonna share it with you here, which is, uh, that I bought…

Actually, this is really sad. I’m so sorry. I’m about to embarrass myself here in my enthusiasm. [00:02:00] But, um, I bought myself one of those little tools that is kind of like a pair of pliers with a load of different sized spikes on the top that you can use to make an extra buckle hole for, like, a belt or a pair of shoes.

Oh, it’s the best thing I’ve bought for ages. It only cost me six quid. I’m sure better ones are available. I’m not sure how many times I will truly use it, though. I just had this pair of summer sandals that I’ve loved all summer, but as the summer has worn on into autumn, the strap has just got a bit loose.

You know? I’m on the biggest hole. The biggest hole? It’s not the biggest, is it? I’m on the smallest… The hole that makes the shoes the tightest, right? I’m on the furthest hole, and they’re still a bit baggy, and whereas they were comfortable to walk around in all day, [00:03:00] now they’re making my ankles ache a bit.

So bought myself the exciting hole-making tool, which probably has a name, and I haven’t troubled myself to look it up. Forgive me. Anyway, chose the smallest gauge, crunched that little devil into my sandal strap, and now I have a fourth hole, and my sandal is lovely and snug on my foot, and I feel like I’ve triumphed over the universe.

It won’t last. It’s a fleeting sensation, but we have to take these little things that are offered to us when we can, and that is mine today. I’m now really hoping that I can find a belt or something that I can just, you know, add a little extra hole to as well, just for the, just for the thrill of it. It’s really good.

There we go. [00:04:00] Now you know how I get my kicks. And I have a really lovely interview for you today that I hope is gonna give you a comparable thrill to making an extra buckle hole, which is the brilliant Joseph Coelho, our first OBE here on The Clearing. We are amid the greats. Uh, you might not know Joseph if you don’t have kids perhaps.

Um, but he is the former Children’s Laureate here in the UK, which is a … I mean, I know certainly American listeners have an equivalent. Um, but such a prestigious post that is always awarded to fantastically good children’s authors, and he did a brilliant job. He’s now having a bit of a rest because I think, I think it’s pretty intense, as he talks about on the podcast.[00:05:00]

Um, he is, believe it or not, and you know, this puts me to shame, he’s the author of more than 50 books. I know. I feel exhausted just saying that. And I mean, that includes, uh, sort of middle-grade novels like the Relic Hamilton series, um, the Fairy Tales Gone Bad series, but also the Luna Loves books, which are for smaller children and are really delightful.

And right now, um, the Discovery Children’s Story Centre in Stratford in London is hosting an exhibition called Luna Loves London, which takes the Luna Loves books that he creates with illustrator Fiona Lumbers and turns them into an immersive experience for young children to explore. Just sounds delightful, and I’d actually really [00:06:00] like to see it.

I’m gonna try and get up there. I’m not sure if you can really go without a child. I’m gonna have to steal someone’s small child. I’ll have a think about which child I can steal. Um, but yeah, what a delightful, delightful thing. So I was really keen to talk to him because he always strikes me as having live wire energy, and I think making work for children and doing as much live work for children that I know he does, you know, readings and events and little experiences that help to get kids into reading must be very, very wearing.

Some of you will know that I used to be a teacher, and then worked in schools as a consultant for a long time, and, uh, there’s a special tiredness that comes from spending a day with young people, even if you love the work, which I always did. But it’s, yeah, [00:07:00] it’s draining. Kids are, uh, in need of a lot of, uh, special care and attention, and it’s a certain place in your brain that it takes to do that, to deal with a mass of them in one go, the little lovelies.

So I was really, really curious to talk to him about how he sees rest, and it didn’t surprise me fully when actually it turned out that what he wanted was to be able to settle in place rather than do a new thing. I really get that. I fully sympathize. But there’s some delights in here, and I hope you’ll really enjoy it.

I’m gonna leave you in the capable hands of Joseph, and I will be back a little later

Joseph, welcome to The Clearing.

Joseph Coelho: Thank you for having me. This is lovely.

Katherine May: Yeah, this is, uh, this is my little oasis of calm in [00:08:00] the everyday. Um, I have just been on a walk, which I went a bit further than I meant to, so I came running back, and then I was panicking ’cause, like, I had sweat in my hair, and I was- Oh

and my glasses kept steaming up. So minutes before we came online I was hairdrying myself to try and look- … a bit more civilized. Well, it’s

Joseph Coelho: the heat at the moment, isn’t it? Like, I had to… I was just at a bus stop just going, “Oh my gosh, it’s so hot. It’s so hot,” and f- but then the rest of the time we’re like, “Oh, it’s not hot enough.”

And now it’s too hot. You’re

Katherine May: up in Edinburgh, aren’t you?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s- And it’s, it’s- … I, I always imagine Edinburgh- … it’s hot … to be like an oasis of cool compared to down here.

Joseph Coelho: It has… Like, I was down in London a couple of weeks ago, and it was just ridiculous. Yeah. And then when I was on the train com- coming back to Edinburgh, a mist descended.

I got up, I was like, “Oh, this is, this is nice.” It’s, it’s like a fresh breeze. But I mean, like, today especially it’s, it’s really hot. And humid. Yeah Everyone’s just sort of lazing around on the streets and stuff.

Katherine May: We don’t know how to deal with it in this country, I’m afraid. No. We just, we just moan about… I mean, we do ’cause we just moan about it.

That’s how we deal with it [00:09:00] basically.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah,

Katherine May: yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. No air con. Trains stop working.

Katherine May: Yeah. That’s right. We’ve got all that to look forward to over the summer. Um, of course, probably when this gets broadcast it won’t be the summer anymore, so this will sound- Oh, yeah … completely irrelevant- Yeah … and life will have cooled down a bit.

Um, so here at The Clearing, we like to talk about the rest that we dream of taking, um, but also the rest we end up actually taking, and I just wondered, are you the kind of person who gets to take a break occasionally? Because you always seem incredibly busy to me.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, I, I’m … I was gonna say, I, I was getting better at taking breaks.

Um, I’ve, I’ve always been someone who just runs kind of full steam ahead ever since I was a kid. You know, I was like the kid who went, had to go to a special nursery ’cause I, I couldn’t go to sleep when all the other little kids were going to sleep. Yeah, so I’ve, I’ve always found I’ve … I kind of run on that adrenaline.

Yeah. But especially as I’ve got older, I’ve found like, [00:10:00] no, I, I really need to, to stop and, and take time out.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: So I, I, I’m more aware of it now, of needing to do that, and kind of more aware of what, what that means for me.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Um, that said, you know, I, I slip into not doing it. Um, uh, yeah. So I’m getting there.

Katherine May: I mean, there’s such a lot of very interesting things to do. That’s the problem, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah. And I, I find it hard not to just want … Like, I’m a kid in a sweet shop. Like, I just want to do everything and, and then I hit a wall.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: And then one day it’s like, “Oh, why am I so tired?” But I- I’m, like, I’m a big believer in active rest.

Um, but, but I think it’s, it’s easy to sort of think, oh, no, I’m doing active rest, and you’re not actually relaxing, you know. Yeah. ‘Cause I can be actively resting, doing stuff I enjoy, but I’m doing it at a level which is quite heightened and intense- Yeah … rather than sinking, [00:11:00] you know, truly sinking down into, into something.

Because when, when you find that special place, you can, you know, you can be going out for a run or going to the gym and you’re resting. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, but I think more often than not, especially things like that when it comes to kind of exercise and things, it becomes something that we should do-

Katherine May: Mm

Joseph Coelho: you know, that we must do for, for … ‘Cause we’re getting older, for our health, and, and it becomes sort of layered rather than I’m doing this because I enjoy it.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: You know?

Katherine May: Yeah. I’ve lo- I’ve tried to learn to use the phrase move my body instead of exercise to try and take away that, yeah, the, the kind of, the school PE feeling for a start, but also this

I mean, exercise in my lifetime has gone from, oh, you’re doing really well if you occasionally play a round of golf, you know? Mm. To … I mean, now I, I was, I was thinking about this at the weekend because I’ve been, I’ve been sort of monitoring my number of steps, and I logged into the app and saw that it was [00:12:00] monitoring loads of other stuff that I didn’t even understand, like the intervals between my heartbeat and-

Joseph Coelho: Mm

Katherine May: how much, you know, how much my heart’s beating in different ranges and all these different things. And I’ve got really sucked into it and then went from feeling quite pleased with how much exercise I take to being really disappointed with myself in the space of about five minutes. And I had to take a breath and think- You weren’t doing it for that Yeah You were doing it to, you know, for the pleasure of being outside and for managing- Mm

stress and I mean, it’s so easy right now to get sucked into- Yeah … a very different way of thinking about it, I think

Joseph Coelho: Well, I think that kind applies to everything at the moment. Everything is sort of- Mm … gamified. And, like, don’t get me wrong, like, I, you know, I love those elements, you know, if it’s like a, a language learning app or something and it- Yeah

is gonna get me doing it more often. And I, I’ve certainly had, you know, gone through phases of like, I wanna complete my rings, you know? And get my steps in and stuff. And, and I, I feel like there can be [00:13:00] moments where, where that kind of works. Um, but s- everything… Like, like for instance, the other day there, there was a chance that I was gonna do some karaoke, um- Important

quite publicly. And I… Yeah. And I, you know, I love karaoke, but normally it’s just me and my wife, and we just- … sing our hearts out. I thought, gosh, you know. So I thought, well, is there like a karaoke app where you can try things? And I found this lovely app where you can, you sing along to a song. And I, I love sing- I can’t sing- Yeah

but I love singing. I find it so deeply

Katherine May: relaxing.

Joseph Coelho: It’s joyful to sing. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it, you know, it had all these, like, bells and whistles, and it could help you get your pitch right and your intonation right. Ah. And I thought, oh, this is brilliant. But then it had this whole, like, social media aspect.

Oh. I was like, I don’t… I just want, I just wanna do something for me, and I don’t want the com- It feels like every, every app you get for something which might be quite nice- Mm … might be a little hobby thing, always comes with this, “Do this and share this.” Yeah. I, I don’t wanna share everything. Yeah. You know?

I just wanna have a go.

Katherine May: I just want to do something in the privacy of my own living room.

Joseph Coelho: Yes.

Katherine May: And be terrible. I [00:14:00] wanna be allowed to be terrible at something now.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. Just- Without a constant like, “You can share this. You can take a picture.” Yeah. You know?

Katherine May: Yes.

Joseph Coelho: Compare with your friends. It’s… Like…

Katherine May: I don’t want anyone to know what I’ve been doing actually.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I, everything… I mean, I, you know, I like doing Wordle every morning. Yeah. Nice. That’s just something that I’ve done for a long time. But lately, I’ve noticed that ’cause I, I was invited to connect up with my friends who do Wordle, now I’m comparing. Like, I’m like- Yeah … “Oh, no, she did it in three.”

I, I really, I didn’t need that. I didn’t need to know that my cousin is way better than me- Yeah … at Wordle. That’s the thing, is it?

Joseph Coelho: And it can end up sort of stripping, stripping the fun out of, of everything because we are, unfortunately, we’re kind of built that way. You know- Yeah … to, to compare and to ensure that we’re, we’re still in with the tribe and, you know, and that we’re not falling behind.

So tribal. Yeah.

Katherine May: I wonder, I… Because you are a children’s author, you’ve… I saw on your website today that you’ve written more than [00:15:00] 50 books, which is- Wow. I mean, that’s amazing. It’s amazing in itself, but that also means you’ve been through 50 promotional cycles Yes. Which is the thing that strikes terror in my heart.

The book writing, lovely. The, the … It’s all the other stuff. But I just wonder, yeah, because we, when we talk to kids, we tend to think they’re always on.

Joseph Coelho: Mm.

Katherine May: And I wonder if those conversations come up with children about rest and downtime as well as on time, because it does seem like the world is increasingly demanding that kids are achieving more and more, and I, I, I spend a lot of time as a parent really worrying about that.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. I find- I mean, it always worries me that I, you, you don’t see kids playing out-

Katherine May: Mm …

Joseph Coelho: like they used to. I know, like, you know, being a, a child of the ’80s, you know, we were always just, just out. Yeah.

Katherine May: And,

Joseph Coelho: and-

Katherine May: We were just out all the time, yeah …

Joseph Coelho: yeah. And that was, there was something quite wonderful and, and, and magical about that.

I do feel there’s a lot … Children feel the, the stress of kind [00:16:00] of living their lives online, and that there’s no es- escape from that.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Um, and, you know, and then even when they are relaxing, relaxing, inverted commas, you know, it’s, it might be on computer games. Which I have no … You know, I like- Yeah

computer games myself. I’ve nothing … Don’t, don’t think there’s anything wrong with that within moderation.

Katherine May: I like computer games, as long as it’s Tetris. That’s the le- That’s the level I got to, and I’ve never got past that.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. Oh, oh, there’s a whole beautiful world.

Katherine May: Actually, I do like Merge Dragons, but I try not- Oh, yeah.

Oh, I didn’t know … to talk about it in public. I need to look that up now. I

Joseph Coelho: don’t know that one.

Katherine May: Oh.

Joseph Coelho: Hmm.

Katherine May: It’s lame. Yeah. It’s really lame. Sorry. Anyway, I’ve interrupted

Joseph Coelho: you. But, but yeah, I think it’s, it’s just a very different, um, world now, and I, I think there is a lot of pressure. I mean, what’s, what comes up a lot when I’m doing events is all, all about being famous.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: That’s huge. That seems to be, you know, they’re asking, “Are you famous? How do [00:17:00] you get famous?” And so, I mean, not all, all the time, but e- enough to be noticeable.

Um, or every now and then I get a kid who really, really wants to be published, and that’s kind of lovely.

Katherine May: I was that kid.

Joseph Coelho: But how do you, how do you get published? Well, you were

Katherine May: that kid too, though, right?

Joseph Coelho: You know what? Not really, ’cause I, I didn’t know it could be a job.

Katherine May: No. Okay.

Joseph Coelho: Like, I, I think I … In secondary school, we had, uh, some journalists from, uh, Reuters come around, and I wanted to be a journalist for a bit.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: But I never really made that connection with writing, per se.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: Um, it took me a while to realize, oh, I can … This can be a, a job. And that was kind of well into my early 20s- Mm … um, after doing some performance poetry and finding that- Yeah … as an outlet. Um, but yeah, some of these kids are like, who, who

Like, literally, I had little, little kids, “Who’s your agent? Who are your publishers?” And, and they seem to have this … It’s either this feeling of like, “I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta do it and do it now, and there’s no time. Um, and I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta be famous.” Um- Mm … and I, I guess that’s ’cause that’s what they’re s- they’re seeing [00:18:00] online, I guess.

And I, well, I-

Katherine May: And that’s where value is placed. Yeah. That’s where value is placed. I mean, I- We don’t value most jobs at all anymore Yeah We don’t value ordinary life. And so, and then we’re really shocked at, at our kids’ response, which is, “I have to be rich. I have to be famous- Yeah, yeah … because otherwise life is not valid.”

And I, I mean, I think they’re wrong, but I also think that they can’t be blamed for taking- Mm … that information in because we have made- We

Joseph Coelho: celebrate it

Katherine May: Yeah, we don’t celebrate it. People are struggling financially, and so it seems like the only way to have what you need might be to become rich, you know?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah.

Katherine May: It’s… And also, I mean, obviously kids don’t understand what rich means, you know? Yeah. That’s the other thing.

Joseph Coelho: Um- Rich in mind, rich in health.

Katherine May: Ugh, yes. That’s right.

Joseph Coelho: That’s right. It’s about what car you can get. But, but then saying that, like, often, uh, kids will ask me like, “Oh, how much money do you [00:19:00] make?”

Mm. And then you see the teachers go, “You don’t have to answer.”

Katherine May: No, we’re

Joseph Coelho: British. We don’t talk. “Don’t ask that.” Yeah, we don’t talk about that. And but I’m, I always welcome it, and always find a way- Mm … of answering it without, you know, revealing my bank

Katherine May: statement. Yeah, without the numbers, yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. It’s like, “Well, here’s my latest pay stub.”

But because I know that that’s what I would have asked.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Because es- especially, like, as… I, I remember that being kind of top of my agenda in a different way when I was a kid of like- Mm … how do you make money? How do you- Yeah … you know, ’cause if I make money, then maybe I can have a house. Yeah. Maybe I can have a car.

‘Cause, you know, at school everyone, all my friends had cars, and- Yeah … and they owned their houses, and, you know, and just had far more money. Yeah. And I just would think, “Oh, how do you, how do you get this?” there’s stuff. I want there’s stuff. Um, and so I always really welcome those questions ’cause I know for certain kids that’s a, that’s hugely important.

If they’re even gonna- Yeah … consider a career in the arts or writing, they wanna know that you can make some money out of

Katherine May: it. I think that’s totally [00:20:00]

Joseph Coelho: valid. Hello. Yeah. That’s gonna be very depressing for them quite quickly. Well, I, I try and give- Sorry, children … a positive spin and say, “Yeah, there’s, there’s always-” Consider medicine.

Yeah. You want a sure thing. A sure … Yeah. But I’m not sure if a sure thing exists,

Katherine May: uh, anymore. No. Well, that’s right. And it’s, yeah, it’s really changed for them and I… And you’re right. I mean, we, because we all need to become less ashamed to talk about money altogether, it’s so important that we’re able to open up those conversations.

But, and I remember too, you know, just the same, that I, you know, I was the kid in the council estate when other, uh, in quite a nice, a nice little village, you know, where people’s parents were working in London or, you know, were definitely much more middle class than me. And I remember thinking even about the teachers, ’cause they all had quite new cars, and we drove a car that was very, that was very

We used to get stopped by the police all the time because there were bits dropping off of it. Like that was- Yeah … that was this constant- Oh, yeah … sort of state of being for my mom going, “Yes. All right. Well, look, I could maybe put some gaffer tape on that bit of rust.” You know, that was it. Yeah. But I remember thinking, “Well, what[00:21:00]

I need to be a teacher then because they’ve got a better car.” Yeah. Like, that was my f- that was the thing, the step that I could see.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: Um, but luckily I had a primary teacher who was really enthusiastic writer, and she wrote all the school plays. And so I had this early model that, that was talking about writing as a, as a joyful, wonderful thing.

And I really, you know, I really think that was life-changing for me. Mm.

Joseph Coelho: I think that’s such a gift, isn’t it? If you’ve got that, that sort of per- b- and it’s often a teacher, you know- Yeah … but that sort of responsible adult in your life who can be a, a role model who can just show you a, another way of being.

Yeah. Another way of being. Um, so I’ve, I’ve always had really good, like, English teachers who kind of bigged up my work. You know, I remember- Yeah … one English teacher may- when all, all the kids went on a school trip that I couldn’t go on, but we did a, did a short story competition. Um, and then he asked me to read my short story out, out loud when all the other kids came [00:22:00] back.

And I remember feeling- Oh, wow … so kind of buoyed up, like someone values my, my words and my writing. And, uh, but the thing is you need m- I think you need multiple touch points like that- Yeah … that kind of widen that door to let you know, “Oh, that’s something I quite like. Oh, they’re doing that. Oh, and they’re doing that.”

And it’s almost like your, your, your s- sphere of influence sort of increases and-

Katherine May: It’s, it’s so-

Joseph Coelho: What, what do you realize is possible …

Katherine May: what, what’s needed is, yeah, it’s really interesting because- I, what I, what I’ve said to people quite a few times is I d- I think it’s hard to explain how little I understood about how to access all of the things that middle-class kids took for granted.

You know, I- Yeah … I didn’t, even when I got to university, I wasn’t really quite clear on what was happening. Like even- Yeah … even by then. Yeah. But I had to have it explained to me what these different things were, because there was no one in my family who had been to university. My cousin went before me, so we were the first [00:23:00] generation, and so she was really helpful.

And I, and I remember even, yeah, when I was 18, her taking me to the shops before I went up to university to say like, “These are the clothes you’re gonna need to wear ’cause you’re gonna be-” Yeah, yeah … “riding.” And I had her old bike as well. “You’re gonna be riding a bike, and you’re gonna, you’re gonna need some jeans.”

Like, ’cause I was- … I was, like, quite an eccentric dresser when I was 18, and I was at the time- Brilliant … solely wearing 1950s secondhand suits. And she was like- Nice … “This is, this is not practical. It’s gonna get really cold,” you know? Things like that. But yeah, like, being able to read that system from the outside is-

Joseph Coelho: Mm

Katherine May: It’s just not straightforward.

I mean, I do… I think kids probably, thank God for YouTube for them now because there are so many explainers out there for absolutely- Mm … every aspect of life, and I would’ve avidly devoured them. But at the time, everything just seemed completely impenetrable to me, and I couldn’t-

Joseph Coelho: Yeah …

Katherine May: figure out. And, and even when I left, I couldn’t figure out what sort of job I was supposed to do.

Like I was- Yeah … I was lost. [00:24:00] It was- Yeah … yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, but very similar for, for me. I had n- no idea. Like I was, I was lucky to- I just had a few kind of lucky moments where like my music teacher suggested that I audition for the, the local am-dram kind of theater group, but that’s not something I, you know, ev- that ever would’ve been on, on my horizon.

But because I did that- No … I ended up, you know, d- doing, uh, Oliver Twist and then sort, sort of going to rehearsals. And- Who

Katherine May: did you play in Oliver Twist?

Joseph Coelho: I, a, a street urchin. Oh, street urchin.

Katherine May: Street, street

Joseph Coelho: urchin number five or something.

Katherine May: Lovely.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, it’s a lovely, so no name, name, no name role. But you know, it, but it meant I was on a regular basis going somewhere other than school or home.

And then in, at the theater I saw posters for what was then the Training and Resource Center in Wandsworth-

Katherine May: Right …

Joseph Coelho: w- uh, where they had a, a bank of computers, of Macs, um, and you could go and do kind of like design courses, um, and- Wow … and take part in the [00:25:00] Duke of Edinburgh. Like I knew none of the, I knew- Yeah

didn’t know about any of this stuff until, but tho- these little touchpoints kind of opened things up, and then I started to

Katherine May: meet- Just opened these little doors. Yeah …

Joseph Coelho: yeah. And started to meet all these other, like m- all these middle-class kids who were just, you know, this is, it was just another Tuesday to them.

You know? There was this, this whole world sort of- Yeah … opened up to me- Oh, yeah.

Katherine May: It’s lovely … which me and my family didn’t- I was thinking, actually, you’re making me think of Munya Chawawa’s, is it Black Boys Theater Club? I c- I’m not sure. I don’t know if you’ve seen about this. No. He’s started a club for Black teenagers- Mm

uh, and he takes them to the theater just to see plays. Oh,

Joseph Coelho: fantastic.

Katherine May: And it’s, it, you can look th- look it up on, um, we’ll, we’ll link in the show notes, um, ’cause it’s, they’re on Instagram. Because he always then interviews them afterwards to ask them what they thought of the play, and you can see that it’s just so transformative for them.

Beautiful. They’ve… Because who can afford to go to the theater anymore? I mean, it’s- Oh gosh, yeah … incredibly expensive. So these kids are getting their first encounter with theater, and they’re coming out, like seeing the world in a [00:26:00] different way. You know, it’s made them think about different issues. It’s made them see possibilities for themselves.

Like it’s such a, oh, it’s the most uplifting thing. I love him anyway. I like watching his reels. He’s funny. He’s funny and he’s clever and he’s looking after people

Joseph Coelho: I think that’s brilliant because it, it, it’s so important, isn’t it? Uh, like j- just for society at large, ’cause of course you’re, you’re also creating the theatergoers and- Yeah

art lovers, uh- Yeah … of the future, and sort of just eroding some of this idea that, oh, theater isn’t for me. You know, ’cause like- likewise, I, I’m incredibly lucky that at my school, and it was just like a, a state school, which has, before I went had a bit of a bad reputate. Not, not saying that- It’s not a cheap state school

me going changed that. But yeah, it was like, “You’ll get your head flushed down the toilet.” And, and it was abs- you know, we, we had, I, I had a brilliant time there and, and wonderful teachers, but the teachers off their own back would sort of hire a minibus and they did a thing called Culture Vulture like every- Oh

Thursday, and they’d drive us down to the National Theatre. And I, I remember going to National [00:27:00] Theatre- Wow … for the like first time with some of our teachers to go and see a show and just, and sort of loudly saying, “I was just, it’s just like a, a block of flats with carpet,” because it was this concrete brutalist-

Katherine May: That is, it, well, it’s brutalist, isn’t it?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: The National Theatre,

Joseph Coelho: yeah. And it was totally like having, you know, I was living in a, in a brutalist, uh- … the, based on, uh, Le Corbusier’s-

Katherine May: Oh, wow …

Joseph Coelho: these, these big sort of ’60s, uh,

Katherine May: flats.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, blocks. Yeah. Um, and then I found out that it was the s- it’s like the same architectural team that worked on the National has worked on my block.

So I was like, “I was right.” It

Katherine May: was like- That’s kind of cool, actually …

Joseph Coelho: yeah, it was like a block of flats with carpet

Katherine May: I love, I absolutely love that. And I, I had a similar experience that I, um, when I was, when I was, like, in year eight, um, we had… There was a brilliant English teacher who worked in our school who actually was never my English teacher, but, um, she was called Helen Brinton, and she later became an MP.

Oh,

Joseph Coelho: wow.

Katherine May: And she, she sort of, I don’t know, [00:28:00] she, she saw me. She saw me and, and she, um, one day just came up to me and said, “Someone’s dropped out of the year 11 Shakespeare theater trip. We’re going to the Barbican. Do you want to come?” And I was like, “Oh, yeah.” And I, you know, it… I would never have gone to the theater with my family.

I… And, and we went, and it was fantastically good, and I got back really late at night, and I, you know, it was really exciting. ‘Cause my, my mum, God bless her, was, um, was very, very anxious, and so she didn’t like to leave the house very much. Um, particularly when I was younger. She got better as she got older.

But we, you know, she would’ve been scared to go to London. That would’ve been, like, a, a terrifying thing for her. So- Mm-hmm.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah …

Katherine May: and I was so… I spent a lot of time just being incredibly bored and, and, like, under-stimulated. Mm-hmm. And so for a teacher to kind of un- sort of understand that and understand that I was probably lacking the opportunities I needed, um…

And [00:29:00] she later coached me for my Cambridge interview. Like, this- Oh, wow … teacher was, you know, completely… And then she, yeah, then she became an MP, which was, like, a really also a very inspiring thing- Yeah … because that was the 1997 election. Wow. So I was in my first year at university then, and I was like, “That’s how far people can go.”

Yeah. It was lovely. It was lovely.

Joseph Coelho: That’s incredible.

Katherine May: Wonder what she’s up to now. Anyway- Oh. … we’ve got stuff to get on with. Um, nice to think about great teachers for a minute, but-

Joseph Coelho: Yeah …

Katherine May: we’re here to think about the rest that you dream of taking. Mm-hmm. So I’m inviting you into my clearing in the woods, which now becomes your clearing in the woods.

Where you get to take your dream rest, your dream- Mm … get away from it all. Where are you gonna take us?

Joseph Coelho: Um, well, it, it has to be near water.

Katherine May: Okay.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. The, there’s something about the sound of water. Like, when I was a, [00:30:00] a kid, we, we were lucky that we had Like a, like a shared fire escape with next door, but it’s kind of like a balcony And I’d, I’d, I’d string up a hammock on, on this fire escape.

Um, and I just remember sitting out there, like in the summer, out during the summer rains, and, and just loving it. So it’d have probably a

Katherine May: beach- Sounds incredibly cool. You’re like in a- It- … tropical rainforest, but in a- Yeah … tower block.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. It was, it was just, there was something so peaceful, and I could see the sun setting sort of over, over the posh houses over the way.

Mm. Um, but yeah, ne- definitely near water, probably at like a, a hammock on the, on a beach somewhere. But if it’s like a place of the mind, then there would have to be, you know, to- I guess scratch my itch of, of needing to explore, there would have to be some antique markets and charity shops nearby.

Katherine May: Ooh, okay.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, where I could go and I, I love exploring, um-

Katherine May: You love a rummage.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. Yes. That’s, that’s the word. I do, I do love a rummage. Like, you know, like [00:31:00] I could spend hours beachcombing. I would… Used to get books out from the library, you know, as a, as a inner city London kid-

Katherine May: Mm …

Joseph Coelho: just on beachcombing, um, because I just loved the idea of just searching for things.

And I can do … And, you know, we’ve been living near the beach now, gosh, for last 15 years.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: And that’s something I love to just walk along the beach and just lift up rocks and, and search- Oh, lovely … for stuff. Yeah.

Katherine May: Lovely.

Joseph Coelho: So it would be a mix of, you know, going for swims, beachcombing, and then once I was, you know, dry and dusted, probably heading off to the antique fairs and charity shops.

Katherine May: So wait, you live in Edinburgh? Yeah. This location sounds quite a lot like Edinburgh to me. It does. That you’re near a beach- Yeah … and you’re near a city center where there’s, like, really cool stuff. Would you- Yeah … would you be in Edinburgh, or have you… Or would you go further afield somewhere warmer, somewhere colder?

Joseph Coelho: You know, it’s so funny you should say that because I was thinking and sort of in pre- in preparation to this, I was like, oh, I… Because I’d, like, I’ve just got [00:32:00] my studio back after, you know-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Joseph Coelho: after decorating everything. I was like, “I wanna be here.” You know? That’s really nice. I haven’t, I haven’t been here, and I’ve just kind of sort of made it perfect.

I found, like, a… And I found an 80- 90s lounger in a charity shop-

Katherine May: Ooh,

Joseph Coelho: nice … that I’ve got recovered, and I’ve put that near the window, and I can just relax and see… And we’ve got swallows nesting in, in the roof space. Ah. I can just sit there and watch them. And the beach is three minutes away. Um, so yeah, it, it, it wouldn’t be far off to- That

Katherine May: is so

Joseph Coelho: nice

to where I am now. Yeah.

Katherine May: So it’s… Well, this is my son who gets driven slightly crazy by my endless desire to, like, go out and see things. Um, I’ve not, I’ve not changed since childhood. Oh, yeah. He’s like, “Can we have a holiday at home?” Oh. So you’re having a holiday at home.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. It’s like a little staycation.

I’ve even, like, yeah, made a little comfy nook where I can, where I can read and watch films and just chill. Yeah, I, I, I do like com- home comforts. I like a big cup of hot chocolate and-

Katherine May: [00:33:00] Ah …

Joseph Coelho: you know. And then having… I love gardening as well, and I’ve just got the garden as I like it. So it’s been my first season for a while of, of growing stuff, so being able to get out and- Just potter.

Yeah I, I love pottering and rummaging. That’s-

Katherine May: Yeah, potter. Yeah, the two most important verbs.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. To potter and to rummage.

Katherine May: I … There is, there’s nothing quite like a good rummage though, is there? Yeah. I mean, I, I sometimes have dreams that I find myself in the most perfect charity shop in the world, you know?

Yeah. And there’s just … It’s just full of all the things that I want to find. Like, I … There’s, I think there’s something very atavistic about it, that we’re sort of responding to our foraging past.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, I think so. Well, it’s that thing, isn’t it? Like, the best things are at the bottom.

Katherine May: Oh.

Joseph Coelho: For, for some unknown…

Which I guess is, is the sort of foraging, sort of digging aspect. Yeah. I mean, I, I … That’s why I, I love the kind of post-apocalyptic films. Because I, I

Katherine May: love it when- ‘Cause there’d be so much foraging.

Joseph Coelho: Well, I d- I, I … I mean, I love it when they’re going into [00:34:00] people’s houses. And they’re all empty, and they’re just going through the cupboards and the drawers.

Like, “Oh, yeah.” Yeah. Go, “What’s in that cupboard? What’s, what’s in that drawer?” So, you

Katherine May: know. Other people’s stuff is always so much more interesting than your own stuff. I

Joseph Coelho: just- Yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Okay. But

Katherine May: that’s

Joseph Coelho: by the way. That was-

Katherine May: So you’re staying at home really? Yeah. Are you gonna stay in your actual house at home, or are you gonna rent somewhere?

Or we’ll rent it for you, obviously, but nearby. Yes.

Joseph Coelho: I think given the amount of decorating that we’ve been doing, I think I’d, I’d, I’d probably stay.

Katherine May: Get the value from it.

Joseph Coelho: Um, stay at home. Yeah. Although saying that, I would … You know, if w- if renting is on the cards, if there’s, like, a place with, like, a swimming pool and a bigger garden- And a roof terrace.

That would be very cool Yeah.

Katherine May: That might be nice

Joseph Coelho: But yeah. Actually, also important, I’d love a, a, um, like a, a natural water lake to swim in

Katherine May: Hmm I’ve

Joseph Coelho: been seeing these on, like, Pinterest. You know, where people sort of make this lake in their garden Oh, the sort of

Katherine May: natural pools?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. I want one of those

Katherine May: Yeah.

[00:35:00] They’re beautiful I went to a, um, a campsite or a glamp- uh, a campsite is not true. I would not go to a campsite. I just, I enjoy things, I enjoy the comforts of life too much to go to a campsite for a holiday. But I went to a glamping site in Portugal where they had a natural pool- Oh, nice … and it was absolutely amazing.

It was all planted out with lily pads, so you’re swimming around, and there’s little frogs sitting on the lily pads- Oh, beautiful … and, um, salamanders swimming in, um, around you. It was amazing Oh, fantastic. I was so happy in it Oh, that sounds lovely. Yeah

Joseph Coelho: There, there’s so- I mean, there is something so magical about swimming, and- Yeah

especially when it, I quite like when it’s quite cold, you know, when you dunk your head under, which I did. A, a couple weeks ago I was in Hastings, um- Oh,

Katherine May: yeah …

Joseph Coelho: and, and it was when the, it was, like, one of the first heat waves, and I thought, “Ah, getting in the, getting in the sea” And I just, I just dunked under, and it’s just, I don’t know, it feels so life-affirming Lovely Yeah.

Um, so- Yeah. I

Katherine May: love to- So- … love to get in the sea. Yeah Hastings is great as well ’cause the sea’s really [00:36:00] deep there. You can, it, it shelves down, doesn’t it? And so you get in deep really fast, which I like

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah My s-

Katherine May: my sea’s very shallow, so it’s only at very high tide that we, that we’re really swimmable.

Otherwise, you’re just paddling for miles and miles, and it’s never- Yeah … getting any deeper than your knees, which- It’s the same

Joseph Coelho: here. You see people out, like, yeah, yeah, it doesn’t go past their knees. Yeah You can have a, have a little

Katherine May: paddle I mean, you kind of know. You’re like, “Oh, guys, I know you’re a tourist because you’re in the sea at the moment, but this is not gonna get any better.”

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. And you just watch them. It’s like, “Keep going. You’re gonna end up…” Yeah

Katherine May: Do you swim regularly- In the clouds … in where you live?

Joseph Coelho: Um, I haven’t done- It’s a shame ’cause we were in Folkestone before, and we were- Mm … doing a lot of swimming, uh, there. But no, I haven’t done here just ’cause exa- like precisely where we are is not y- there’s swimming places nearby, but you can’t swim- Yeah

right on our doorstep. It’s not quite. Yeah. We’re right by- Yeah … a river, and so it kind of, you know, and w- the water quality at the moment, which is a- Mm … which is a real shame. Oh, yeah. And so I have missed that ’cause we did, in Folkestone we had it on our [00:37:00] doorstep, you know, before. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, j- just spent all summer wet.

Yes. You know, in the water, taking my goggles and snorkeling.

Katherine May: That’s lovely. Yeah. I’ve been, I’ve been put off in the last few years by the quality of the water as well. It’s really, I don’t know. I, there’s so much environmental grief at the moment. You know, these incredibly hot summers that we’re talking about are- Yeah

terrifying, and then on top of that, our water quality in the UK has been so poor, and it’s- Mm. Yeah. It’s- It is- It, it’s not as inviting as it used to be.

Joseph Coelho: No. And it is a real work, ’cause you do see things change. I mean, just how hot, you know, every year seems to be the hottest on, on record.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Joseph Coelho: And we’ve really noticed a lot of, like, dead bees.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: I think like every year you might see one or two, but sometimes I’ve been out on walks and I’ve seen like four or five. Yeah. And so I haven’t seen that before, and I f- I find that really just like it, you can see it happening.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: But yet as a collectively, you know, as a global civilization, we don’t seem [00:38:00] to be doing- No

what is, what is needed.

Katherine May: Or anything really very much. No. No. No. Okay. So- I am re- the, the question I’m really curious to ask is if you’re gonna take this break- Yeah … at home or close to

home, would you be able to

Joseph Coelho: stop working? Oh, gosh. That’s such a good question. You know, because I, like, I, I do, I do love work.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: Um, but of late I’ve found myself increasingly disconnected from that joy of it because- Mm … I’ve been just running on empty, trying to catch up, trying to- Yeah … hit deadlines that, that had slipped.

Um, after like fini- finishing the, uh, laureateship, I was quite behind. I say that just ’cause I’m not normally behind on my deadlines. I’m normally spot on my deadlines. Um, but yeah, it, it took me a while to sort of catch up, and then you’re, you … It becomes a [00:39:00] stress.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: Um, it’s quite nice now, now that I’ve, I’m, I’m pretty much caught up now.

And so I’m-

Katherine May: Is the laureateship two years or one? It’s two

Joseph Coelho: years. Two years.

Katherine May: Yeah, two years. But- It looks really intense. I mean, you, you get to define a project that you’re gonna work on, I think. Is that right? Yeah. Or you … Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. Absolutely. Like, each person kind of makes it their own and does what they- Mm

want to do. But I sort of decided to take on about four projects and they, and they all sort of become- I

Katherine May: mean, of course you did.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, because that’s, you know-

Katherine May: That’s what we do.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, it’s sort of … I, I, I’m not sure where I am if I’m not running.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: Um, but I, but also I, I got some advice from like previous laureates, but also, um, je- the wonderful Jason Reynolds, who was the, uh- Yeah

American laureate. The- The

Katherine May: UK, the US one.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. Yeah. Their ambassador for literature. I said, “What advice?” ‘Cause he was just coming to the end of his tenure when I was starting mine, and he said, “Oh, uh, just um-” burn out was, was his advice

Katherine May: Thanks, Jason.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. And, uh, I was [00:40:00] like, and that really sort of spoke to me.

And like- Mm … yeah, with, with the caveat of like of course look after yourself. Yeah,

Katherine May: yeah.

Joseph Coelho: But I wanted to… I didn’t wanna … I wanted to leave everything on the field, you know. I wanted to, to do as much as I can whilst being sensible and, and, and looking after myself. But of course you get… Y- you say you plan lots of projects, but then lots of requests come in and you don’t say no to that, and that seems really exciting.

And, and so it just all became this huge, wonderful- Yeah … beau- beautiful, beautiful thing. Um, but yeah, sorry, to an- answer your question, I think-

Katherine May: No, no, I think it’s- I was- … fascinating to- … to hear what it’s like actually. Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. But yeah, I think I, I think I would have to write. Mm. I would definitely have to write.

But if I could do it without the pressure of deadline and just be doing it through a, from a place of passion, uh, then that would be perfect. W- which is, you know, a kind of position I’m putting myself in now ’cause I’ve just been clearing space so I can just work from without pressure, so I can just get things finished without needing to send something.

Katherine May: [00:41:00] So you’re gradually catching up. That’s, I mean, that is extraordinary though because, uh, w- was it 2022 that you began your laureateship?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: So it’s taken- See- … you a couple of years after that ended to just get back-

Joseph Coelho: Oh,

Katherine May: yeah … on an even keel. But, but- That’s intense …

Joseph Coelho: but it was … But we li- I, I mean, I … The day before the announcement, I, we were moving out of our home because it was getting- Totally refurbed.

And then the, the week that I finished, we were moving back in. Uh, so we were moving out again ’cause we were moving, and then starting a new- Oh, God … a new project. And that wasn’t, that was never the plan, but it’s just life just kind of g- things-

Katherine May: Yeah,

Joseph Coelho: yeah … turned out that way. So it’s just felt like the last four years we’ve just been-

Katherine May: Yeah

Joseph Coelho: paint brushes and builders.

Katherine May: I can really see why you want to stay home. Just- Yeah … just let it be really peaceful.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. And just, just chill out.

Katherine May: But it’s … I- I’m really interested about you still writing while you’re on a break because I… That, I think that’s what I crave the most in a way. [00:42:00] That actually I just want the admin to go away.

Joseph Coelho: Yes, yeah.

Katherine May: And that kind of purity of the relationship with the writing. But I also find that I, um, whenever I go on holiday, I always end up writing something else. Like, I have a sort of affair with a different project- Yeah … that normally, like, normally it doesn’t go anywhere, but that’s the joy of it. I write something really silly or, like, something that doesn’t fit with me, that nobody, nobody’d be like, “Oh, I want this book from Katherine May.”

You know? Like, something really strange. And then when I come home, I’m over it, and I feel refreshed for my existing work a little bit more- Yeah … although not the admin. Never the admin. I’m, I… So much admin.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. I could totally, like, you know, m- meetings. Yeah, cons- Meetings that could be emails. You know, I’ve, I’ve got no, no time for.

But, uh, but I’m very much the same. Whenever, like, we, we go traveling, we j- we both end up My wife Manjeet and I, we both end up [00:43:00] writing and getting really, like- Mm … get that sense of filling up the cup. And we’re, and we’re quite slow travelers. Like, we like to travel for, you know, two or three months at a time, and just- Oh, wow

go and spend, like, 10 days in one place, two weeks in another. Mm. And, and just like, like just go walking around local parks, or I normally go, go onto Google and, like, find all the, the nearest cafes. You know? That’s

Katherine May: nice. I love that. We’re in, we’re

Joseph Coelho: in a, we’re in a zone, and we just, we’ll go to

Katherine May: cafe- So that you can behave like writers when you’re on holiday.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, exactly. I, I mean, I think that’s what really drew me when I realized you could be a writer, the idea that you could- Mm … write anywhere. And I always had this very romantic notion of being on the old style wooden trains, you know, with the wooden kind of first class cabins- Ah … which I don’t think they do anymore.

Uh, and, and, and writing-

Katherine May: You’ll have to pay extra for that now for like a- Oh, yeah … sort of heritage service.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. So you get it all back on the delay repay ’cause it, it will be

Katherine May: delayed. Yeah, ’cause it will be delayed. So, yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. So it’s, it’s fine.

Katherine May: Be free. It’s essentially free.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: But I don- All rail [00:44:00] travel in the UK is ultimately free because you can always claim it back ’cause it’s always late.

Joseph Coelho: You know what? That’s been my experience. It has just been, yeah. Yeah. One delay after… But I do… But actually saying that, I’ve had some very relaxing delays where there’s not been too many people on the train. And it’s been delayed by an hour or two, but it’s, it’s actually been quite pleasant as well.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: It’s a nice quiet carriage. Like, I’ve got my laptop, I can just do some work. And I, I do love that. And I th- I think there is… It’s so funny because when you’re under pressure and feeling the stress, it be- it becomes the hardest thing.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: I certainly find it becomes the hardest thing to, like, hit that deadline, to, to hit your targets.

But then when it’s coming from a place of passion, I can write… I can easily write 3, 4, 5,000 words in a day- Wow. That’s incredible … if it’s from a place of passion, because it’s

Katherine May: just- That’s incredible.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, but I… It, it doesn’t feel that arduous. Yeah. But yet if I’m up against it or I’m stressed out or multiple things are coming at once, then I can spend all day doing 300 words.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: You know? Because it’s- Yeah.

Katherine May: I, I definitely know that

Joseph Coelho: one … it’s just, it’s not coming from that place.

Katherine May: I can maybe do 2,000 or [00:45:00] 2,500 on a good day. I’ve never hit 5,000

Joseph Coelho: in a day. Well, it’s, it’s rare. I’ve, I have been in that, in that flow zone, but that flow is, is-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Joseph Coelho: is

Katherine May: rare

Joseph Coelho: because so often everything- It’s so rare.

Yeah. It’s so rare. And, and silencing that sort of inner critic of like, who am I doing this for? Where am I gonna send this? You know, what’s trending at the moment? What, you know, what, what are editors and therefore sales teams going to like? And I try to- Yeah … quieten all that down ’cause I know that doesn’t lead to my best work.

Yeah. I, you know, my work that connects is work that I’m… where I’m, I’m in that flow and I’m writing for me with a reader in mind. Mm. Not with book sales and promotions.

Katherine May: Yeah. Sort

Joseph Coelho: of at the forefront.

Katherine May: Yeah. Which, you know, we, we… I think probably people don’t understand how much that- is in our ears behind the scenes.

You know, “Oh, you can’t, you can’t do that because nobody’s interested in that at the moment,” or, “What we really need from you is…” And you’re like- Mm … “Oh, I don’t want…” And it, and also the kind of pressure to create work [00:46:00] that’s quite the same. Yeah. You know, the same but different, and you’re like, “What is that?

I don’t know what that is.” You can really get in your head, I think, and it’s exhausting.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, and, and, and limiting. Um- Yeah … I, I think the industry as a whole is constantly chasing its tail, trying to- Yeah … reinvent the wheel, and I’ve al- always believed that if you’re, if you’re trace- chasing a trend, it’s too late.

As soon as you’re aware of it, it’s, it’s too late.

Katherine May: Yeah, because the, the publishing cycle’s gonna be at least a year, so-

Joseph Coelho: Yeah … you’re gonna be behind the curve … and the next big thing is gonna be something undreamt of, and it, it- Yeah … but people don’t wanna … Like, I see industry as a whole struggles to take those risks- Yeah

because everything is about sales and what can we see work before or this kind of thing. Yeah. Um, but that’s why I think it’s, you know, I, I’ve worked with a range of publishers but, you know, I, I find that some of the most exciting things come from those smaller ones who can-

Katherine May: Yes …

Joseph Coelho: take those risks, you know?

Yeah. And are, are quite happy to do that.

Katherine May: No, that seems to be, that seems to be [00:47:00] really true. I’m, I am surprised though because I’d have thought, you know, given that you’ve had the laureateship, you- you’re such a high-profile children’s writer, I thought at least you might be allowed to do what the hell you like.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. You- Well, that, I think that’s, that’s a danger as well of kind of slipping into that mindset, which I’ve totally been guilty of. You know, it’s like, “Oh, I’ve done this now.” You, you know, it’s like, it’s like, “Oh, I’ve been a laureate. Oh, I won the Carnegie.” I can- but it’s- … at the end of the day it’s, you’re only as good as your, as your, as your latest book.

Always. And, and it is a business, and it has to connect. But I think the act of connection only happens by forgetting all of that.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: You know? Yeah. And I think that’s the hardest, that’s the hardest thing is, is creating an environment where our best selves can, can come forwards.

Katherine May: Mm. Okay. So we’re taking a break, but we are writing, but we’re writing with none of that pressure- Yeah

and in this glorious sense of flow. [00:48:00] How long, how many hours a day do you write? If it, if it’s joyful, what’s the, what’s the platonic ideal of a- Ooh … of a restful writing day, a restorative writing day?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, I, I, I used to s- try to like tie myself to the desk and like do my eight hours or get up at a set time.

And I found that just doesn’t work for me.

Katherine May: I can’t do eight hours.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. It’s just, it’s too, it’s too much, and it’s taxing on the brain.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: You know? But what I do now, I just do whatever I feel like doing. Mm. So I potter, I fix things. I, I mean, I love Lego. You know, I will sit and do- Bit

Katherine May: of Lego.

Joseph Coelho: Bit of Lego, yeah.

I will, I’ll go out into the garden. I’ve s- I’ve been doing pottery for the last year, so I’ll, you know- Mm … go and, go and create some pots or something. And then normally like m- mid to late afternoon Some people hit and I’ll feel like sitting down and, and writing, and then I can just lose hours. Yeah. Um, and then I have to, you know, s- force myself to stop so I can get to bed at a reasonable hour.[00:49:00]

‘Cause I, I used to just go run through- Do

Katherine May: you work late?

Joseph Coelho: Wow. I have … I can be really guilty of that, and very easily- Mm … will go into, like, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM. But I- Yeah … try not to now, ’cause I … It takes me three t- three … Getting old now. It takes me three days to recover from a late night.

Katherine May: Yeah. That’s the problem, is that you

But I, I’m more early morning, and that’s when I- Oh, yeah … uh, you know, sometimes your flow is just at a weird time of day, isn’t it? And I-

Joseph Coelho: Yeah …

Katherine May: get me at 4:00 in the morning and I’m golden.

Joseph Coelho: Really? And how long do you work for then when you … If, if you’re starting at

Katherine May: 4:00? Probably, if I start really early, I can probably do three or four hours.

Yeah. If I start later, I can do a couple. Like, I … There’s something about that early … And of course, that’s, it’s just not always possible, because I need to also remember to get some sleep, and, uh, like, it just doesn’t work always. But if I’m in a serious writing phase, I’ll probably be getting up at 4:00.

Yeah. I’ll be at my desk by, say, 20 past with a cup of tea in my hand. And then I think there’s just not enough of me in the [00:50:00] way of it. It just- Yeah … it can just come out, and I’m not overthinking it, and no one can bother me, and nobody could expect me to reply to an email at 4:00 in the morning. Yeah. Like, it just- Oh, that’s nice

all of the pressure’s off.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: And I, I love that, but I also … It’s just not sustainable in the real world.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: It’s just not, it’s not possible to do that very often, but sometimes I get to do it, and I love that.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, ’cause life starts to butt in, doesn’t it? Or, you know-

Katherine May: Of course. Yeah …

Joseph Coelho: doorbells start going and phones start ringing.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: But I think that’s so great if you can get that.

Katherine May: People that keep regular hours start talking to

Joseph Coelho: you. Yeah. It’s like, “How dare you?”

Katherine May: It’s not reasonable. Yeah. Okay. So I mean, normally I’d ask people what they’re gonna pack and things like that, but I think what I want to o- what I want to offer you then is something- Yeah

to bring into your space. A cultural item. Mm. Something for inspiration, um, maybe that doesn’t exist in your house at the moment, but that … Can I give you access to something that would increase this sense of [00:51:00] flow and kind of-

Joseph Coelho: Oh, gosh …

Katherine May: connection?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, I mean, something which has always been- I guess quite important in my, in my upbringing, just in my li- I have a, I have a photo clip behind me is, is Lynn Chadwick’s The Watchers.

She’s like this-

Katherine May: Oh, wow.

Joseph Coelho: You can see that?

Katherine May: Yeah, let’s see.

Joseph Coelho: These-

Katherine May: Ooh …

Joseph Coelho: these three statues that were on my estate-

Katherine May: Oh,

Joseph Coelho: wow … uh, when I was a kid. And we, you know, as kids, we thought they’d always been there. They were just part of the landscape, you know, these huge kind of monolithic statues that-

Katherine May: So ju- so just to describe them for people that are listening rather than watching.

Yeah. They are… How would you des- oh, well, you described them. They look like ET to me. Yeah. They’re like- Like brutalist ET.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. They’re very brutish. They’re very sort of these block-headed figures, uh, abstract figures. They’ve got these k- each one has three pointy legs. Mm. I think they’re about s- my memory of them is w- being about six foot tall, maybe seven foot tall.

So they’re really big. Yeah. They’re big sort of cast iron [00:52:00] things.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: Um, actually, I’m not sure if they’re probably bronze. Yeah. They’re these huge metallic things.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: Um, and they’re, you know, they’re in Roehampton where I grew up on the grounds of Roehampton University, just looking out over the Alton West Estate.

And me and my friends, we, we referred to them as the three witches. Oh. And we were scared of them. Like, we, you know, we’d always, you know, sort of dare each other to, to run up to them, and they just had this mystical quality. Like, we never, I never remember looking down just reading the plaque, you know?

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: To us, they were, they’d almost like grown u- out of the, out of the landscape. And they’ve always stayed with me. Um, and I always felt- Like playing out over Hampstead as a kid. So a strange place. You’ve got this mix of brutalist, you know, it was Europe’s largest council estate.

Katherine May: Yeah. But

Joseph Coelho: you’ve also got these little mansions from the 1800s when it was the countryside and- Yeah

very rich people would build their huge mansions there. So we would play out in the grounds of these mansions whilst coming from our concrete estates, and it, that, uh, sort of [00:53:00] mix felt very magical.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: And so I always have it, I always have those statues near me. I could have those statues somewhere to- Yes

you know, in a, in a central courtyard.

Katherine May: We can install them in the garden. Is that all right?

Joseph Coelho: That’d be perfect, yeah. Because, because I, I feel like they sort of connect me with my childhood, but also with-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Joseph Coelho: the fantastic and, but they’re also very grounding ’cause they’re so big and solid. And I don’t slightly overwhelming and, and, and-

Katherine May: Mm

Joseph Coelho: slightly scary in a good way, sort of thrilling.

Katherine May: Yeah. Um,

Joseph Coelho: so yeah, I would, I would love to have those.

Katherine May: I mean, w- I, what a great testimony to the power of art, of public art, and the, again, exactly what we, we were saying earlier, that if children come in contact with fantastically good art, with high-quality creative output, they are inspired by it.

You don’t need to… I mean, I, I used to work in gallery interpretation, so I, you know, devoted my early [00:54:00] career to trying to inspire children Yeah … to understand things. But actually, one of the things that was always really clear to us was that the less you can do, the better. It’s just giving kids permission to connect- Mm

with the art, rather than making them do stuff around it- Yeah … because they will respond. And

Joseph Coelho: I think that simplicity is, is so often missed because I- Mm … I think art comes with a lot of baggage, doesn’t it? And people feel like- So much baggage … I need to be clever to understand it. I used to, uh, do projects at the Jerwood Gallery in, in- Yeah

Hastings many years ago, where we’d invite kids in and just explore the, the latest exhibit and just give them time and space. And, and it was a lot of reassuring, like, “Whatever you think goes.”

Katherine May: Mm. “

Joseph Coelho: Whatever your interpretation is is absolutely fine.” Um, and, and you could sort of see their, their eyes spark when they realize, oh, you know, when you’re talking- Yeah

to them about mark-making and if something, if they feel something looks angry or … That’s, that’s fine. That’s their interpretation. But [00:55:00] for some reason we have this feeling. And same with poetry, you know, oh, there’s a correct answer. Yeah. And if you don’t know that correct answer, you’re stupid and you’re wrong.

And that’s so sad because of course, art- artists create art to, to connect and, and I think most artists create art to let go of and for it to become something other.

Katherine May: Yeah. I mean, you have … Well, I think when people go to art college or, you know, e- even when … I mean, I used to teach creative writing at university as well, and you have to get people to let go of so much that they’re taught in school in order for them to become the artist that they need to be.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: And yeah, I, I get, I get that schools need to do that stuff, but it is, it is often at the expense of making a connection-

Joseph Coelho: Mm …

Katherine May: to the work. A personal connection, and that, it’s that connection that will really sustain you. You know, it’s-

Joseph Coelho: Yeah …

Katherine May: we make it sound so boring, I think- Yeah … is what I’m saying.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. Analyze this. You know?

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Which, uh, and it, and [00:56:00] it’s such a shame because it, you know, like I, I, I loved analyzing poetry at, at school.

Katherine May: Yeah. But- I, I … Give me a pencil and the margin and I’m really happy.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. Yeah. But if that’s your only introduction to it, and if you’re never allowed to see yourself as a poet, never allowed to see yourself as a, as an artist, or never welcomed in, into that world as a creator, then it, it’s very much a one-sided thing.

And art isn’t one-sided. It is a, it’s a communication.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Joseph Coelho: Um, yeah. But it’s hard, isn’t it?

Katherine May: Some joy back in there. Well, I- Yeah … I absolutely love this choice. I just … And I can see you almost sitting at their feet.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. Head in

Katherine May: hand. What a gorgeous thing. Um, wonderful. People rarely choose sculpture as well, which is really good. Um, so- What defines, as we come to the end of your, your time in retreat, what will mark the boundary line of that between this and real life? Like- Gosh … [00:57:00] how does it end? Can you carry on like this forever, or will there be a definite moment when the outside world encroaches again?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. I don’t think I can be like that forever. I know whenever we’ve, like, gone away for the kind of long trips, I start to get itchy.

Katherine May: Mm.

Joseph Coelho: You know? But I kind of love that, love and welcome that feeling, you know, where we’ve, we’ve had lots of days to just wander and, and walk and fill up, fill up the cup.

And then I start wanting, I start getting more and more ideas. I’m like- … “Oh, I wanna send this off to that person ’cause I think they’ll connect with that, and I wanna write this, and I wanna do that.” And when I start to get itchy, then I know I need to- Yeah … I need to step out, step out of my, of the fictional house, leave the watchers behind- It’s

oh … and get on the train and, you know, experience a delay whilst I’m getting to a, a publisher meeting or a school.

Katherine May: It’s funny, isn’t it? The thing that we said that we didn’t wanna do, like, suddenly you’re like, “Yeah, actually, do you know what? I want that publisher meeting.”

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. But I think it, the, th- that’s the thing, isn’t it, is keeping that connection-

Katherine May: Yeah

Joseph Coelho: to, to that [00:58:00] pa- … Because I d- I … It- it’s so easy to get bogged down by, like, the admin and the, and the kind of having to of- Yeah … of work, whatever your work is. Um, and as much as possible we can sort of create a, an environment where we can fill up that cup and f- and remember the passion, um, then you end up doing, coming

You know, e- everything becomes easy. And the- Yeah … and, and ideas flow, and you find new ways of doing things, and it just becomes a, a joy. And stress-wise I find, you know- Yeah … like, when I’m up against it, the, you know, I’m, I’m not sleeping, and then I’m not eating right, and I’m not sleep- … And it, it just becomes this- Yeah

ongoing thing. Whereas if I can connect, and, and allow time to connect, then it’s just like, ah. Yeah. Like floating downstream. I think

Katherine May: the, the sort of, the lesson that i- it is still taking me a long time to learn with my work now that I’m … You know, because I, I was, I was looking at your About page on your, on your website, and I was thinking, “Here’s someone [00:59:00] that’s done a lot of jobs.”

Yes. And I’m also someone that’s done a lot of jobs. Exactly. Like, because nothing was ever right until I could be a writer. Yeah. But … And that means we sort of drag a sort of weird sense of failure behind us, you know? Like, “Oh, I never really could do a career.” But we have got careers.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah.

Katherine May: But I think the thing that I still struggle with is letting writing be a different kind of work altogether to a job.

Yeah. And, and escaping the idea that I’m not doing it right if I’m not sitting at my desk from 9:00 to 5:00. Mm. And kind of embracing the flexibility that I actually have in my life now and, and, like, genuinely letting myself have that rather than feeling a bit weird and ashamed of it. Um- Then life actually is a series of breaks, of different breaks, different changes in action.

That’s the thing that I find the hardest, and that’s the thing that I’m still trying to master, is just let, [01:00:00] let those, let the creative flow be different at different times, and just sometimes not be, not be at my desk. Like, I’m allowed. Nobody’s, nobody’s monitoring it anymore.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah. But I, I, I can totally relate, ’cause there is this sort of guilt, you know?

Katherine May: There is. I- There’s a weird guilt, yeah …

Joseph Coelho: yeah. It’s like I, I should be at my desk, or I should be sending things off, or I should have meetings. And then, you know, if you bring social media into the mix, and then you- Yeah … end up comparing, “Well, they’re doing this. They’re doing that. Why? I should be doing that.”

And it, and

Katherine May: it’s- Some people are doing a lot of social media stuff …

Joseph Coelho: Oh, yeah. And I find this, I mean, I’ve really just pulled away, ’cause I just, I, I don’t find it helpful. I think it can be. I think it can be a hugely creative, wonderful thing. Yeah. But I think

Katherine May: I’m not- But it’s not part of my practice.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah.

Um, and I, and yes, now I, I l- you know, I, I do … Was contractually obliged. Now I delete the apps, and I’m not on the, you know, or go on, post if I have to, you know? Yeah. And then I’m off, because I, I, I find it [01:01:00] so often does more harm than good. Um, and we’re just constantly being advertised at, and it just takes, it, it takes me out of what- Oh, yeah

I, I want to do. And it’s all, as you say, it’s already hard enough, you know, with the, the guilt factor- It’s tricky … is like, you know, this needs to be a career, so this needs to work, and I need somewhere where my next … You know? B- because also we’re freelance. You know? After, after doing these We’re freelance

yeah. And, and you don’t know

Katherine May: where- We’re bus- we’re little businesses. A- and that’s hard to square with the creative life quite often- Mm … you know?

Joseph Coelho: Yeah.

Katherine May: It’s spooky.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, and it, it is just allowing yourself to, to go, which can be quite a scary thing to sort of go with that, to go with the flow, and to realize, I think, that so much, so much writing is done away f- from the desk.

You know? Yeah. So it is like responding to a reader who has, you know, sent an email saying that they, something touched them or that, you know, or it might co- you know, going to a, going to a school or, [01:02:00] or a library- Yeah … or just wandering down the beach and thinking. You know, ’cause so many of my ideas come from rummaging.

Mm-hmm. You know, you know, rummaging quite literally in charity shops, and I’ll see something, I’ll be, “Oh, that, there’s a story hidden in that.”

Katherine May: See, the rummaging, it’s, it’s central to your personality.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. It’s the, it’s the, the archeologist, the, the, you know, I’m a failed archeologist,

Katherine May: so. That’s, of course you are a trained archeologist.

I am, yeah. This is it. This is it. You’re looking for artifacts.

Joseph Coelho: Yeah, yeah. I do. I do see it as like it’s digging, and it is clearing. And when I’m, especially like when I’m editing, I feel like I’m there, back there with the trowel and the brush just like gently teasing out a story, and that’s kind of some my, my favorite, my favorite moments are, are those, those mo- those editing moments of sort of moving things around and

Katherine May: unearthing.

That’s a lovely way to think about editing. Joseph, thank you so much. I have enjoyed so much your, your vision of being at home. Like, it’s … I really get it. I think [01:03:00] if I had a week off right now, I would, I would be primping my garden a bit, which is looking a bit sad and brown and- Yeah … and, yeah, tinkering, pottering, and a little bit of rummaging through the local charity shops would be a joy.

Oh. So thank you. Absolutely. It-

Joseph Coelho: Thank you so much. This has been, yeah, such a treat and a delight. So thank you.

Katherine May: I’m back. How was that? It was fun, wasn’t it? I really… Do you know what? I, I will tell you that there is a theme that emerges this season, which is kind of, kind of a foraging theme, like an urban foraging theme. We like resting by going through stuff. We like stuff. We know that we shouldn’t like stuff, but we really like stuff, and we find it relaxing to go through stuff.

I know I [01:04:00] do. The more random the stuff, the better, as far as I’m concerned. It’s really nice to know that Joseph likes going through stuff as well, and a future guest, who I will not reveal yet, h- also has a really good idea for going through stuff as a form of relaxation. It is the foraging time of year as well, so I do feel like that speaks to our, like, you know, perhaps evolved desire to go hunting for the things that nourish us, and that maybe we do that in secondhand shops and boot fairs and antique stores and all kinds of things like that now.

Yeah. But do you know what? It’s just for people who don’t have a buckle hole maker. If everybody had a buckle hole maker and enough buckles, enough, enough straps that got a little bit too [01:05:00] stretched, then everyone would be happy. I actually begin to feel like this might be the recipe for a more harmonious planet, is that everyone, everyone now gets to reinvent their own, their own buckles.

I don’t know. I don’t know if it will catch on, but perhaps I can write to our new prime minister about it, and he can issue everyone with the spiky buckle hole pliers. Or am I losing my mind? Possibly. Very possibly. But at least it’s, uh, in a benign way. I think I might leave you with that thought, but take loads of care, won’t you?

And I’m back next week with a very exciting guest who has another truly wild and inspiring vision that I think, hmm, I think listeners of this podcast are gonna really, [01:06:00] really like. Sorry to be mysterious, but, uh, until then, take care, and I will see you next week. Bye.