Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00]

Hi, Katherine here. Welcome to the latest episode of The Clearing. You may be able to hear that I’m in a slightly noisier environment this time. Just passing a bus. I am walking through Tooting in London, where all of life is busy around me. I’m off for a hospital visit for my mother, who is currently awaiting surgery, so this is my daily walk at the moment while I stay up here to support her.

It has been a year of hospitals for me, so it just feels like home now. I was thinking yesterday, wow, the beeping doesn’t bother me at all anymore. That must be how it feels to be a nurse. I don’t know. [00:01:00] Anyway, here I am walking along Tooting High Street, which is full of excellent things to see and lovely smells.

I think it’s honey mango season, because there are grocers everywhere with boxes of those beautiful orangy-yellow kidney-shaped mangoes. They’re the sweetest, most delicious ones. Sometimes they have little bits of glitter stuck to them to show how special they are. When I used to live in the Norway towns, it was really easy to get hold of them, but now it isn’t so much.

So I might bring a box home with me. I wish I had a knife so I could cut into one in my hotel room, but never mind. There we go. I can just look at them. I am introducing today my guest, Yasmin Khan, who is a journalist, campaigner, [00:02:00] and food writer. And it feels really relevant to talk about Yasmin walking along here, because her most recent cookbook, Sabzi, was the subject of a little controversy last year, which we talk about at the beginning of the podcast.

The word sabzi means greens or herbs across a lot of Asia and the Middle East. And where I’m walking today, I’m passing these incredible grocers filled to the brim of beautiful fresh greens, herbs, aubergines, yams, all kinds of fantastic things that make you hungry just to look at them. But interestingly, somebody tried to claim the word sabzi- As a trademark, which was possible here [00:03:00] in the UK because nobody could possibly have realized what a general word it is in a whole variety of languages across Asia.

And so poor Yasmin had quite the time of it, defending herself against this very spurious claim, which luckily was later dropped. But I don’t want to just dwell on that, because Yasmin is such a fantastic writer and force for good in the world, and I think you’ll really, really enjoy speaking to her. And I hope if you do, you might pick up the cookbook itself, because I have dipped into it so many times since I bought it last year.

I- as I say to Yasmin, it has the right number of aubergine recipes in there for me, which is plenty, because they’re my favorite thing. But it is just one of those cookbooks that’s just incredibly appetizing. I had a really good chat with [00:04:00] Yasmin about her dream retreat. She has a, a really lovely place in mind.

But we also talked about the desire to get away a bit for ourselves when we have small children, which I think is still, you know, a lot more controversial than it ought to be. But Yasmin’s very happy to talk about it, and I salute her and fully agree with her. The idea of getting some time to yourself, remembering who you are when kids are small, is just absolutely essential to me.

And we also talked a lot about cooking, how it is for many of us a pleasure and a hobby and a way of taking our leisure. Sorry, someone just started shouting as they’re walking past me. Um, but also [00:05:00] how when we have to cook a lot in order to hold the world together, that that can really eat into our love of cooking.

And I think that many of us will, you know, will really, really recognize that feeling. I know I certainly do after the year I’ve been having. So anyway, I will not, I will not spoiler this podcast anymore because I think you’re gonna love it. And I will be back afterwards to say bye-bye. See you in a while.

Yasmin, welcome to The Clearing.

Yasmin Khan: It’s lovely to have you here. Katherine, I am so happy to be here. I have been a Avid reader and fan of yours for many years. And- Oh, thank you … thank you so much for everything you’ve put out into the world. It’s helped me so much. And, um- Oh, [00:06:00] wow … it feels … I’m just really excited to have this

Katherine May: conversation with you.

Oh, well, I, um, I will one day stop reacting with deep embarrassment when people say that to me. I got stopped in the street last week by a man, ’cause I’m face blind, I don’t recognize anyone. And a man smiled at me in the street, so I went, “Hi,” back ’cause I thought I might know him, who knows? And he was like, “Oh, thank you for saying hello.

My wife’s a massive fan.” I was like, “Oh, God, I’m gonna die now in the middle of the street.” I felt like such an idiot. Like I was walking around Whitstable just going, “Hi, everybody.” I just … Ugh. Anyway. I think it’s great.

Yasmin Khan: I think he’ll have, like, gone back to his wife and been like, “That Katherine May’s so friendly.”

She’s

Katherine May: so weirdly friendly and needy that she just stops strangers in the street. Yeah, I, I do worry about that. Um, I am really glad to make this space for you today because I feel like you have had a year of it, and I feel like you- your struggles in the universe have been very visible to all of us this year.

Do you mind talking about that? There was [00:07:00] a, a, I mean, am I allowed to call it a rather ridiculous legal case that must have had huge implications for you?

Yasmin Khan: I think you can call it that. I’ve probably called it worse- Yeah. Yeah … in moments of anger. Um, yeah. So I am a writer, and I’ve, I’ve written four books.

And my last book was a vegetarian cookbook

Katherine May: called Sabzi. And it’s gorgeous incidentally. It has the right proportion of aubergine recipes for me, which is many, and it made me really happy.

Yasmin Khan: Excellent. Thank you so much. Um, so- It’s, it’s lovely. It’s

Katherine May: so lovely

Yasmin Khan: Oh, I really appreciate that as well. I also ca- … I cringe a little bit.

You see, I did the same thing. I know. Like, “Oh, don’t worry.” I don’t know why. I don’t know why. Um, so my heritage is I’m, you know, British born and, or born and bred, but my mom is from Iran, and my dad is from Pakistan. And in the language of both of those countries, sabzi means vegetable. Uh, it’s a very, [00:08:00] very common, common word.

We- Sure. It’s, it’s the word vegetable … yeah, it’s vegetable and greens. I mean, it’s just such

Katherine May: an

Yasmin Khan: ordinary

Katherine May: word.

Yasmin Khan: Yeah, used by over a billion people worldwide. And, uh, the reason I bring that up is, uh, in, in September, I opened up an email from my publisher. Um, my editor had sent me a letter with, uh- Solicitors.

So the letter accused me of trademark infringement because a chain of delis in Cornwall had trademarked the word sabzi- Right … a few years ago. That’s the name of their deli, Sabzi Deli. And they’d specifically trademarked it, um, for use for a future cookbook that the shop owner might one day want to write.

Katherine May: I mean, I admire the organization behind it, but how on earth could that trademark have gone through when it’s such a [00:09:00] generally u- I mean, that’s breathtaking to me.

Yasmin Khan: Yeah. It, I mean, there was, there were many things about the case that were really shocking to me. I mean, the fact that somebody would feel that they could trademark that word.

I mean- Yeah … it’s like trademarking pasta or tapas or curry- … or these other really common- If I could trademark pasta,

Katherine May: I would, and then all the pasta would belong to me.

Yasmin Khan: You know, these really common language words- Yeah. Yeah … within our global culinary lexicon, which we all share now, you know, ’cause food is so globalized.

Yeah. And food is so much about sharing, not ownership, which is why I found it particularly difficult. Um, but leaving all that aside, as an author, I’m sure you’ll be able to relate to this. Ideas come, don’t they? And we, we think, “Oh, well, one day I’d love to write about that.” And then- Yeah … you know, whether you do them or not is a separate thing.

And so the bit I always found particularly perplexing was, you know, I wanted to write a cookbook at one point in the future, and I wanted to call it [00:10:00] Sabzi.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Yasmin Khan: But I didn’t, but you did. And, um, so it was a very aggressive letter. It, you know, threatened to have my books, uh, destroyed, um, uh, if, you know, we didn’t kind of meet their, uh, ne- desires- Yeah

which were to change the title, which would’ve involved pulping the book and, I mean, all of this stuff. So it was a very difficult, uh, legal process to find myself embroiled in. Um, the, the deli owner then hired a PR company, and I just opened up Instagram one day to, to kind of find a bunch of stories about it.

She’d kind of got stories- Oh, dear … in the BBC. And anyway, it became a, one of the m- most stressful, um- professional things I’ve had to deal with. Um, at one point, uh, she managed to get my book pulled from Amazon, which for all its faults- Yeah … is the biggest book retailer. Of course. Yeah. And November, when this happened, is a key [00:11:00] time for authors because it’s when books get sold the run-up to Christmas.

Christmas. If you’re not a writer, you know, it’s like the big moment. Yeah. I think something like 80% of all books are sold there. And all of this was over a cultural word that, to be honest, I didn’t think I owned. I just called my book it because I felt, I mean, how many cookbooks are called Veg- Yeah … or, you know- Yeah

Veggie? Um- Or Meat. I’ve

Katherine May: seen quite a few Meat books. Right. I’ve seen Fish books. It’s tho- those basic culinary … They’re not even culinary terms. They’re just basics of the language, yeah.

Yasmin Khan: They’re, they’re cultural terms. And what I think really I found most unsettling is this idea that we should ever be able to own or commodify culture, food culture that belongs to, I think, everybody.

Especially when you work in the food world. So much of what you do is about this idea of sharing, about togetherness. Yeah. And I appreciate it’s a cliche, but it’s really true. I mean, you know, w- you know, cooking isn’t- Yeah … just a solo activity, although it can be [00:12:00] for yourself. Often it’s about a shared

Katherine May: experience.

Mm. But- And also so much of food writing is about incremental changes to existing recipes. You know? That it’s not about reinventing the wheel and saying, “I’ve, I’ve developed an entirely new way of dealing with the vegetable as a cultural icon.” It’s like, “Right. Well, this is how it’s cooked in this village, and I’ve added this extra little tweak ’cause I think, I think it makes it easier to cook,” or, “I think it makes it more delicious.”

Like, that’s, that’s food writing in lots of ways.

Yasmin Khan: It really

Katherine May: is.

Yasmin Khan: And, um, so it was a very stressful time. I couldn’t say anything legally. My publishers, Bloomsbury, were fantastic. Um, but it still, I still just didn’t know what was gonna happen. Yeah. And then this … It was such a wonderful thing. It was almost like one of the most stressful thing that’s happened professionally, and then the most incredible, is that the story, you know, came out, and with no coaxing from me, my fellow food world community and other authors- They had your back

[00:13:00] started writing about it. Yeah. And they wrote Substacks about it. Rukmini, Rukmini, sorry. No, Rukmini, um, Ayo- Oh, yeah … the wonderful author of The Roasting Tin series, wrote an, a, a scathing article about it. And then the great and the good of the food world, you know, everybody from Olia Hercules, um, to Deborah Robinson, and, uh, you know, even Nigella came and- Good old Nigella

posted about it. Nigella is

Katherine May: a great, great person, and yeah. She really is. I remember seeing her speak up for you.

Yasmin Khan: She, you know, I was just like, “Okay. The Queen has spoken.” And at that point I had- You knew it was gonna resolve at that point. It had to be okay after that. Exactly. And I had this duality then. I

It’s interesting, isn’t it? Like, how- much community can support us. And I kind of feel, I don’t know if, you know, this is a common thing that other people feel, but, you know, I, I know I have, you know, people who I get on with and who like me, but there’s, it’s [00:14:00] really something else to be on- Yeah … the receiving end of people supporting you.

Yeah. And I just feel so grateful and humbled and, um, I re- really think that it was because of that public pressure that the deli owner eventually decided to drop, um, the lawsuit. My book was reinstated, and I could breathe a sigh of relief.

Katherine May: But what a drama. Total drama. What a drama. And tho- those kind of things, even when they’re resolved in exactly the right way, really, really take their toll, don’t they?

I mean, there are those … I don’t know about you, but I, my, my kind of margin for like, oh, the whole bottom’s gonna fall out of my world and everything’s gonna be terrible forever is, is very, very narrow. And those kind of moments, you know, they, they are triggering in the, you know, in a really, really existential way, I would say.

Yasmin Khan: Yeah, it felt that way. I mean, especially, I mean, the idea of I just kept worrying so much about how was I gonna fund a- Yeah … a legal challenge to defend myself in the courts with, you know, [00:15:00]

Katherine May: you know … Thank goodness it didn’t come to that. And how much time it’s gonna take as a- How much time … as a freelance worker.

It, it, you know, these things are terrifying. I’m so glad it got resolved and that sense was seen, and I’m actually glad that there was such a silver lining for you as well of, of that community and support and that feeling of part of a, a bigger gang. I th- I think even non-food writers, I think the general author community were, we were all up in arms for you.

Because actually we … Like, one of the things that might not be obvious to people listening is that we don’t own the titles of our books necessarily. Like, it’s really common for several books to have the same title. That’s, that’s totally legitimate. There’s no, there’s no exclusivity. Only, there have only been a few cases ever of, of kind of copyright infringement where people have really done word for word ripoffs of books.

But broadly, we kind of know that it’s all a continuum in the publishing world, and I think it, I think it was shocking to all of us, really. [00:16:00]

Yasmin Khan: Yeah. I, I also think that it brought up for me this idea that, look, I- creativity is abundant, and there’s room for everybody. There’s room for books on similar topics.

There’s room for books with similar titles. Um, I’ve often wondered why, you know, the, the person in question didn’t just write her cookbook and call it The Sabzi Deli Cookbook, and- Yeah … that would’ve saved thousands of pounds presumably-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Yasmin Khan: for everything she paid, and energy and like, um- Or, or even

Katherine May: said- Yeah

“Oh, wow, we’re called Sabzi too, and here’s what we do.” And you would’ve been like, “Oh, lovely. There’s a Sabzi…” Like Cooperation would’ve saved everyone a lot of time and money and angst, but, um- Yes … there we have it. There’s a big moral lesson. Anyway, let me take you into a nicer space than that, seeing as we’ve, seeing as we’ve rehearsed all those, all those terrible moments.

Um, I want to invite you into my clearing in the forest where you can get away from it all. Are you, [00:17:00] are you someone who gets a lot of breaks? Are you someone who retreats or goes on holiday or, or are you a kind of person that finds it hard to switch off?

Yasmin Khan: I would live my life on retreat if I could.

Katherine May: My kind of person.

Yasmin Khan: Yeah. Um, so I would say they have been part of my whole adult life actually. Oh. Um, so I’m in my mid-40s, and I would say for, you know, 20 years, um, or more, I have needed actually time, often on my own, often in quiet places- Mm … just to regulate. And- Yeah … actually what’s really interesting is even as a small child, my mum tells me that, you know, there was lots of conversations with school or whatever, that I would even in a classroom when I was really young need to be fine engaging with everyone and then needed to go away in the corner and just be on my own.

Mm-hmm. And initially the school teachers would think, “Oh, there’s [00:18:00] something wrong.” And eventually they- I love that we think there’s something wrong

Katherine May: with that …

Yasmin Khan: they realized I just needed to, I just l- literally- Yeah … needed to step out. Um, and I find that really interesting- Mm … because I think for those people who do need regular quiet or alone time, sometimes that can be, you know, sometimes I’ve felt a bit pushback on that, you know?

Um- Oh, yeah … you know. Yeah. Of course, now I have a two-year-old who turns two tomorrow, so the concept of

Katherine May: that- Sorry, I shouldn’t laugh, but yeah. No.

Yasmin Khan: Very, very hard to- I’ve had to spend the weekend with her like this basically- Yeah … as I, you know- Yeah, right out, right up close … go into the toilet or having a shower.

Yeah. Which is fine, but what that’s meant is I’ve had to carve out that retreat time slightly differently. Mm. And in the time, she’s two years old and I have been away for trips on my own, and that’s been good for everybody- That’s great …

Katherine May: I think. It’s so [00:19:00] culturally sensitive for women to even say that they want to have a little break from their two-year-olds.

Like, these are the most intense days of your entire life when you have a toddler, and yet it’s so taboo quite often to say, “I just, I need a bit of a break. I, I will come back to this better if I do.” And I, like, it’s so interesting ’cause now I have a nearly 14-year-old, and now people kind of tell me off in the opposite direction.

Like, “Oh, are you not … Are you, you know, are you clinging to him too hard? Are you, are you l- not leaving him enough? Are you getting away?” And it’s like, I, I wonder what, what day we cross that Rubicon from like you’re not giving them enough time to you’re giving them too much time. We can never win. Um- Mothers can never win

but how do you take … No, no, we can never, ever win. How do you manage to take those breaks? Like, what does, what form does it take for you at this point in your life? So at

Yasmin Khan: this point in my life, um, it’s always tinged with a [00:20:00] huge amount of guilt- Of course … and a little bit of shame and a little bit embarrassment.

So actually, I value this space because sometimes in some circles with other mothers, I, I either play it down- Yeah … or I feel like I can’t say, “Oh, I’ve been away. Oh what? For a work trip? No, I just went away for a night on my own- I chose to … to a hotel.” Yeah. Like, the first thing I did is I went away, I really remember, I went to Margate.

It was for one night, and it was so painful. I like, I think I was so- Yeah … distraught kind of leaving. Yeah. It’s like an hour and a half drive away. I just went to a hotel on my own. That’s it. That’s all I did. And I went for dinner on my own. Mm. And then I went back, and I slept for, like, eight hours. Lovely.

Then that is it . That’s like the min- But I, um- Yeah … you know, it’s interesting. You know, so it mainly looks like that at the moment. Yeah. It’s smaller breaks. It’s, you know … However, I, because of the nature of my work, I, um, had a major US book tour last year, and I brought my family with me. Oh, wow. But I, I took a week away, which [00:21:00] is, as in, they came for most of it-

and then for one bit I didn’t. And that was the hardest. But I was working actually, so I don’t know why I gave that as an exc- as a retreat ’cause that isn’t what it is, no. It can … I, I, I think those work trips can feel

Katherine May: like an opportunity- Now they do … that you can snatch, though. To be fair- Yeah … you know, I, I get- They really are

invited to places, and I think, “Oh, that would be a few days that nobody could blame me for.”

Yasmin Khan: Yes. Yeah. And I, you’ll laugh at this, I was in LA. It’s a really sunny thing. And I was in betw- the book tour was very intense. It was a busy month. At the end of it, I was going to California. And I got there, and I had a free day and an evening event.

And I thought, “Well, what shall I do? I’ve got this free time.” And you know I did. I thought, “Oh, the new Downton Abbey movie’s on.” And I just … I was in LA to… And I thought, “I don’t wanna do anything. I just wanna go and sit in a cinema and just- Yeah … and then I had a nap, and that was my you know, fan- I- I mean, I could have done that down the road.

It’s fine. But it, it, you know, it speaks

Katherine May: to kind of what you need to do. Yeah, it really [00:22:00] does. I think it’s brilliant that you do this, though. I think ev- you know, it doesn’t matter what it is, it’s, it’s what feels like normality again. Oh, I can just choose to go to the cinema. I can … ‘Cause I, I now, I mean, all right, again, I’m come- kind of coming out the other side, but there were years when I felt that if I was gonna go to the cinema, I had to watch a really important film, like it had to be a significant choice in my life rather than like, “Oh, I’ll just see what’s on and watch any old trash,” which is what I used to do.

And, and it’s like, no, actually, sometimes you need to watch Downton Abbey with some popcorn. Exactly.

Yasmin Khan: Um, but I’ve also really embraced the idea of the micro break- Mm … or retreat. You know, as a, as a, as a mother to a toddler, there isn’t a lot of time or space. So it’s about thinking about what are the mini ways that I can have that retreat.

Yeah. Um, I’m a lot more intentional around technology. Yes. Because I really find that that- Yeah … is [00:23:00] dysregulating for my brain.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Yasmin Khan: Um, and yeah, my phone and, you know, w- can I get little hours or two hours if I can’t get- Yeah … a full, you know- Yeah … two days.

Katherine May: Yeah.

That’s lovely. Well, I think that’s great, but let’s go further into fantasy territory here.

Tell us where you’re gonna take us today for your dream retreat. If you had, if you could get away from it all with no guilt, with no one casting any judgment, where would you take us? Well, as, as

Yasmin Khan: someone who’s listened to this podcast, Katherine, I s- I, I’m a bit embarrassed to say because I feel like you’re not gonna like it because- Oh.

I don’t think you like this kind of weather. But I would go to the tropics.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Yasmin Khan: I would

Katherine May: go

Yasmin Khan: to a beach in the

Katherine May: tropics. Do you know what? As I get older, I begin to feel the cold a little, and I’m less averse to it than I once would be. I, I sat in my conservatory yesterday afternoon and, and drank in the sun and thought, “Wow, you’ve changed, [00:24:00] lady.

What’s happening?” So maybe not, but, uh, whereabouts in the tropics are you, are you taking us? So I would be

Yasmin Khan: probably in somewhere where the water is warm. Mm. I like it, like I, I can’t, I can’t do the- … the seas around us. Where it’s warm enough, uh, that, you know, you walk in, and it feels like a bit like a warm bath.

So I’m gonna say the Gulf of Thailand, which is- Oh … a place I’ve retreated to a lot over the years. Um, and I absolutely love The jungle. I love the tropics. And what I love about the Gulf of Thailand is you get islands where you get that combination of the tropical intensity, so the loudness of the tropical jungle.

It is so lou- You know, it’s interesting when you think of, like, those idyllic islands, they’re actually so noisy ’cause you’ve got all the insects- Yeah … and the birds and the monkeys and the… It’s, it, it just hums all night, all night. Um, [00:25:00] but I love that. I l- there’s something about the colors of the tropics.

Mm. All those shades of green and the humidity. You know, like, when you’re, you just kinda like w- go for a walk and you’re damp. I appreciate, like- Yes … that isn’t always appealing. That’s not my favorite thing- But, like … but yeah, sure. Exactly. But for… I know. But for some reason, that makes me… I think it makes you lethargic or it makes me slow down.

Yeah, yeah. Um- Yeah … I, you know, if I go somewhere kind of cold or cool, I kind of want to move around a lot. You get all busy. Exactly. Yeah, it does make sense. So that’s what I would do because, you know, in an ideal retreat for me, I would be very kind of close… I’d be in nature, but I would be able to swim. I, it’s just there’s something about water that feels very important.

Katherine May: Definitely. It seems, I mean, I would say 90% of our respondents have wanted to be near water. It’s such a, it’s such a transformation, I think, of landscape. You know, you can’t, you [00:26:00] can’t be working when you’re in water, but also it transforms the sensory landscape around you, and I, I… It’s so significant, isn’t it, that we all want to be near water.

So are you staying… I’m imagining you on a, like, staying literally on the edge of a beach with a turquoise sea in front of you and jungle at your back. It’s, you’re, you’re between those two landscapes. That’s wh- that’s where I am. And

Yasmin Khan: my space is very basic, you know. I’m not in need of, like, you know, a nice comfy bed, a good fan.

Um, but, you know, I, I, I don’t imagine kind of high-end luxury because- … I kinda quite like that, um, more elemental nature of, of some of those bamboo, um, huts that you can be in.

Katherine May: Mm. Um- So really simple, really close to that environment so that you’re, there’s, there’s almost no line between indoor and outdoor.

Exactly, yeah. Lovely. Yeah. [00:27:00] And are you… You’re alone, I take it. I am alone. You’re definitely a person who likes their solitude.

Yasmin Khan: I am. I am. I, I, I love it, actually. Sometimes I wonder a bit too much, but, um- There’s never too much solitude, my friend. There’s never too… Um, I mean, now as, as it was, um, as, like I said, when you have a toddler, you just don’t have any, so I, I appreciate it even more.

But I really do. I find that I, I’m never bored. Um- Yeah … it’s interesting, you know When I was thinking ahead of this interview about some of the things I would take or some of the- Mm … things that were meaningful to me. It’s, it’s … I’ve, uh … And maybe this is because, you know, if I’ve got a pen and a, a notepad, that’s me entertained for days.

Writers find it- So … very hard

Katherine May: to get bored, I think. We really we’re really good at … We are the children that occupied ourselves, I would say. Yeah. Would you … So would you write while you’re away on this retreat?

Yeah.

Yasmin Khan: Definitely. Um, because for me, [00:28:00] writing isn’t just a, a vocation. I think it’s just how I process life.

Mm. Um, so whether that’s … Actually, before we came on, I, like … Well, I’ve, I’ve got, like, a bit of a tricky decision to make about something, and I just always have to put pen to paper. It is my, my grounding rock. Yeah. But it’s also, you know, where I explore creativity. It’s, it’s … I’ve, I just, I feel so connected to writing all the time, and have done

Katherine May: for years.

Yeah. I find it hard to imagine how anyone who doesn’t have a notebook thinks about anything. I feel you. I don’t know how to think inside my head. It has to, has to be on a page. Yeah. How do people … I’ve never thought about it in that way . No, but how do you? What’s the process?

Yasmin Khan: Like,

Katherine May: how do you think

Yasmin Khan: without writing something down?

Katherine May: Yeah. Because I

Yasmin Khan: think a … No, it’s not, it’s not the same for everybody, right? I don’t think that’s a common way of- Lots of people don’t have a notebook …

Katherine May: writing, no? I, yeah. No. I find that fascinating. I, I just feel like I’ve done that all my [00:29:00] life, just written, written my process through. It, it feels very physical to me to think, almost.

To … You know, my hand has to be moving for it to happen. Do you have favorite pens? Oh, yes. Of course I do. I like, um, I like refilling my pens. This is my … I, I kind of went through this thing. I was always a Pilot Techna Point girl for a long, long time. Me too. Love those. They are great. And you can get ink cartridges for them now, which is good.

Mm. But I

went through a very anxious phase about how much plastic I was using, ’cause I do … I mean, I burn through pens. And so I started using refillable ink pens. The joy of which is that you get to buy loads of bottles of … There are such exciting ink, like, brands now. So I’m gonna wave some things at the camera to you- Please do

which nobody will be able to see on the podcast. Forest Gatto ink. The color of black cherry- How what? … and smells like a black cherry. Yep. That’s one of my favorite recent ones. No, it smells …

Yasmin Khan: Wait. It smells- Smells of black cherries … like a black cherry. Yeah. And is it like a [00:30:00] fountain pen, so you would

Katherine May: fill it- Yeah

Yasmin Khan: in that same way?

Katherine May: So I love- Like an ink cartridge … these Ka- uh, Kako pens. K-A-K- uh, K-A-C-O pens. They’re Japanese, and they’ve got lovely retro styling, and they’re an ink pen. But they’ve just got, like, a little valve refiller that I dip into the bottle of ink and refill.

Yasmin Khan: I’m gonna research that.

Katherine May: Yeah. So I’ll show you another of my favorite inks recently.

Please do. deadly nightshade Oh I don’t know if you can see this. Gosh Deadly nightshade Deadly nightshade It’s also purple, but, um, it’s got, like, a green glitter in it. And if you … I don’t know if you can hear the bottle I can

Yasmin Khan: hear it. I can hear it. What’s the- So … jingling sound?

Katherine May: The jingling sound are some little porcelain skulls that help to mix the glitter with the ink.

I could go on. I will not. But I … This, this is how I relax That

Yasmin Khan: is fascinating. I think- It’s a good noise … I think you need to kind of- … you know, write a Substack post for your readers about all these pen inks. I don’t think people

Katherine May: know about them. [00:31:00] Oh, I know. It’s really … It’s joyful. I even had an ink advent calendar this year that a different ink every day.

Yasmin Khan: No. Yeah. That’s great. I had no idea this existed. But isn’t it fascinating? I do think writers have got a special relationship. Yeah. I think a lot of people think of notepads to buy people who are writers. Yeah. But actually pens are another one which we- Pens really matter … we all love. Yeah. I mean, I, I think the notebook thing I don’t- I can’t write with

You know when you sometimes have to write with a pen that, like, you don’t like? Oh, yeah. It, it’s done. And it feels as if the, the brain-hand connection

Katherine May: doesn’t flow. Yeah. The wrong pen is no good. But also people quite often buy me notebooks, and they really shouldn’t because I’ll only use one kind of notebook.

I can’t, I can’t have that changing all the time. It’s gotta be consistent. Mm. And so I don’t know what to do with a different notebook that isn’t a Rhodia. I love a Rhodia personally, but- Mm. But yeah, I … It’s really funny, isn’t it? It’s quite, it’s quite an intense connection that you have with your materials, which- Yeah

it’s not … It, it’s pretty obvious when you come to think of it [00:32:00] that you are gonna feel really connected to that. But, but we also need consistency, I think, to some level. It, it’s got … We’ve gotta know it’s gonna be okay.

Yeah.

So are you traveling to Thailand with a, a suitcase full of … What, what would you bring?

What are the pens, what are the notebooks that you’re bringing?

Yasmin Khan: Oh, well, I’m slightly different to you. I like to have a selection of notebooks- Oh … of different sizes- Daring … for different activities. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I’m, I’m listening. So I have, I have my A4 one- Yeah … which is my morning pages kind of, uh, to do creative- Oh, you’re a mor- morning pages person I am still a morning pages person.

Wow. How many years since I st- … I mean, obviously with a child it has been- You know, it’s not, it’s not the pages of longhand. It’s a free-for-all. Yeah. You know, it’s … Um, but I first did The Artist’s Way 14 years ago, and- Wow … it’s

Katherine May: embedded in me, that practice. So for anyone that, that doesn’t know The Artist’s Way, it’s Julia [00:33:00] Cameron’s book, which is a ki-

It’s a … It’s relied on by so many creative people, isn’t it, to … It’s aimed at, like, maintaining your creativity through creating some habits. And one of them is morning pages, which I think is three sides of A4 every morning of just brain blur. It shouldn’t be beautiful writing. It should be just whatever’s on the surface of your mind.

And you’ve done it for 14 years. That’s pretty incredible, actually.

Yasmin Khan: Yeah. Really a long time. I- Mm. You know, when my, my baby was… I mean, as a toddler it actually now doesn’t work, ’cause she’s full of beans first thing. But at different points in the last two years I would purposely get up earlier, even though that meant even less sleep.

What’s that, like 3:00 in the morning? Even less sleep. Exactly. Just so I could, I could sit down and just have that 20 minutes. Mm. Um, I think everybody needs different things, don’t they? But for me, it was just so [00:34:00] clearing. Yeah, yeah. Um, and we’re jumping around a little bit about what I would take on my retreat.

That’s okay. Don’t

Katherine May: worry about it. Because I was- No, well, that’s fine, because I always ask,

Yasmin Khan: like, what you bring with you. So yeah, this, this may be just- It- … perfect … so I was between the notebook and the pen, and then the, The Artist’s Way. But actually, I fou- I thought may- you know, maybe it all counts as one package really.

There would, you know… But, uh, you know, The Artist’s Way I think would be- Mm … the most wonderful thing to take if I was gonna go on a retreat tomorrow to take with me. Because even though I have done the book and the process twice already, I would love to do it again. Yeah. Uh, I’d love to have the time and the space.

And I, I’ve done it twice, and both times have found that it has unlocked a different creative idea. I did it 10 years apart. Okay. So, you know, we’re very different people, you know? But, you know, in a decade. In 10 years apart, two completely different selves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and z- [00:35:00] you know, The Artist’s Way is a guided course of, of I guess one could say, around creativity and self-discovery.

Katherine May: It’s based on the 12-step AA program, isn’t it? Is it 12-step or 10-step? I’ve lost my bearings. It is. It’s 12-step? It’s 12 steps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yasmin Khan: So a lot of it is about confronting fears. It’s about kind of dealing with some of your inner critics- Mm … your inner demons around creativity. And it’s about offering you the opportunity to dream, and dream, and dream, and dream through a series of exercises.

And as someone who probably before I did The Artist’s Way wouldn’t have called myself creative- Interesting … even though creativity just permeated my life- Yeah … I got a lot of confidence from it- Mm … um, to say I am a creative. But interestingly, I’m such a advocate for it now that I just push it on all my friends and have done for years.

You know, I have friends who’ve done it, and it’s inspired them to, I don’t know, do a PhD. I, or I’ve got friends who’ve done it, and it’s inspired them to do kind of acupuncture. So [00:36:00] it… I don’t think it’s- Wow … specifically for people who are just thinking Oh, I’ve got an idea- Yeah … and I wanna work on it. It can just unlock anything.

Yeah. It’s not

Katherine May: necessarily- As all retreats can … I mean, it sound, we’re making it sound like it’s about writing, but it’s actually not necessarily about writing. It’s about, it’s about creating a circumstance in which you can be receptive to your own creative ideas and, and sort of ways, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Have you done it? I have. When I, when I first started writing, so I guess that would be in my mid-20s. Um, I th- you know, there are things that everybody recommends to you at the beginning of your journey, and, and it, it’s the moment when you most need them. Um, and I … But I’ve never taken to morning pages. I g- I’ve always kind of found that if I’ve done that, I haven’t got anything left for anything else.

Um, but I, the, I, the concept I found really useful was filling the well, the idea that you need to keep your kind of well of creative inspiration open, [00:37:00] and that really opened something up to me that gave me permission to, you know, that going to a gallery wasn’t a silly leisure activity. It was a crucial aspect of my, like, holistic creative wellbeing, if you like.

Um, and that’s, that’s- It- … always really stayed with me. Yeah. It’s such a central

Yasmin Khan: component to the Artist’s Way process that every- Yeah … week you give yourself permission to go on what the author calls an artist’s date. And that could be, you know, an hour of just doing something purely frivolous but creative.

Now, you know, it- Yeah … could be going to a gallery. It could be me popping off to the cinema to see a- … n- you know, not very highbrow movie. Or, you know, it, it could be … I did this, you know, I, I, I did this one artist date when I was doing the course many, many years ago where I just would get some pencils and one of those, um, you know those coloring books?

Yeah. And I put on an album that I hadn’t listened to for a long time, like a full album from start to finish. Oh, [00:38:00] that’s so nice. Which is 45 minutes, and I just did some coloring, and I listened to the whole thing. And y- I mean, when was the last time we gave ourselves the space to do that? But, you know, it doesn’t always need to be- Mm

a costly thing. ‘Cause sometimes when I explain it to people they’re like, “Oh, well, I don’t have the time,” or, “I can’t afford to do that.” You know? It could be going around the park- Yeah … picking up different leaves that you see. That kind- To be honest, living with a toddler is just basically- … being in an artist date all the time.

All the time. Yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah. Well, they, but they do … They show you how it’s done all over again, don’t they? You know, they paint so freely, and they follow their interests, and they, they yammer on about stuff that’s caught their imagination. And you think, “Oh, this is, this is the bit I’ve lost, actually.” Yeah. It’s ironic, really.

My daughter at

Yasmin Khan: the moment is She just loves singing. She loves singing, but just at the top of her voice. It’s so uninhibited, and it’s often out of tune, and she doesn’t really know some of the words. [00:39:00] But it is … I just, every time she does it- Yeah … it honestly- Lovely … it sparks something in me because it’s- Yeah

just seeing someone so free, so unembarrassed- Lovely … just completely enjoying the act of singing. And when do we stop

Katherine May: singing like that? There’s a point when we obviously- I know … all stop just singing, and it’s so, it’s so beautiful when you see it coming back at you w- through your little person who … Oh, yeah.

Are you … So, uh, I, I think you should sing at the top of your lungs on your retreat in, on the Gulf of Thailand. I, I wanna hear full operatics emanating- Yes … from your cabin every morning, please. If that’s okay. That sounds great.

Yasmin Khan: Um, you know, I, I think I really, um … One of the things I like to do when, and, and one of the things I think retreats can give me, and, you know, I think it’s different for everybody, um, but is kind of the space to [00:40:00] perhaps delve into those creative acts that I don’t, you know- Mm

because I feel like writing is my job, and, um, that’s kind of the thing I do. Writing, when it’s your

Katherine May: job, can feel very uncreative, actually. You know, it can feel quite mechanical when you’ve gotta, gotta get it done. It’s really different to that fluid state of, yeah, I, I know it so well. Can I ask about food while you’re there?

Because it’s clearly very central to your life. When you are taking some time to yourself, do you still like to cook, or are you gonna … Is there a local, a really fantastic local restaurant that you’re gonna be there? Or can someone bring you some food every day? All options are open.

Yasmin Khan: It’s very interesting because, again, I think before I became a mother my answer would’ve been different- Yeah

in that- Yeah … um, whenever I went away, I like dining out. I mean, you know, obviously who doesn’t? But I also would get to a point where I just You know, I like to have food where you can have breakfast yourself or be able to just make [00:41:00] myself. I would always carry certain things with me wherever I traveled, you know.

Say if I, say if I stayed in an Airbnb, I’d always, from home I’d take certain spices- Right … so you can easily, like, roast some veg. I’d always take some za’atar. I’d always take some cinnamon and some cumin. And then I’d always take some dal so I could make that wherever you are, and it’s cheap and easy, and nourishing and healthy.

And- Yeah … you know, when you’re away, sometimes you end up not always eating as, as healthily as you could, and- Yeah, I mean, I- A reset dal meal … I eat mainly crisps when I’m on holiday. Yes, exactly. Um, so that would’ve been my answer. But- Mm … you know, today it’s really, again, interesting what motherhood does- Yeah

even to someone who loves cooking. You know, when you have to provide three meals a day and snacks every day, it, it, you know. Yeah. So now I d- I just do not want to see a pan.

Katherine May: I just don’t. I, I so sympathize. I’ve, I mean, I’ve talked about this a lot, but, um, my husband was very ill last year, and the, the [00:42:00] weight of caring for him became such that I still haven’t got my cooking mojo back.

That’s the … Like I’ve … Everything’s receding a bit, and it’s all okay, but I’ve lost my pull towards cooking, which I’ve always had, you know, every single day. Oh, I fancy this today. How can I put that together? Or, oh, I’m gonna go to the greengrocers and see what they’ve got. Or I’ll, you know, I’ll do that. I

That’s, that’s always been, like, a, a, a way that I rest, and it’s really surprised me to find that I don’t, I don’t want it right now. It’s, it feels like such an absence, but it’s, it is nevertheless not there. It’s … And it’s exhausting, I think. It’s a real … It’s depletion. Yeah, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s

Yasmin Khan: complete depletion.

Yeah. Um, but it’s interesting. When I Was thinking of, you know, before, you know, I sat down today about what object I would take with me or what, you know, it … I was torn because actually, even though I say all of that, part of me would probably want to take a cookbook with [00:43:00] me, in that there is a very different kind of cooking, right?

Mm. There’s the cooking that you do because, you know, you have to put some pasta on the table at a certain time for a hungry child. Because your child will only eat

Katherine May: one thing, and you have to endlessly make renditions of spaghetti bolognese, in my case. Yeah. Yes. I mean, it’s just always a winner, isn’t it?

That was toddler food for me.

Yasmin Khan: Yeah. Whereas there’s another kind that I don’t currently have time to do- Mm … or the head space to do, or the energy to do.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Yasmin Khan: But it’s the one where, it’s the one that you said where, you know, you might see something- Mm … or you might remember something, or you might crave something, or you might pick up

You know, I love recipe books for that reason. You go- Yeah … through them, you read them, uh, you get an idea. You, oh, see a combination. Um, so my hope is after I’ve got through the I’m really exhausted, now I’ve slept a bit, now I’ve recovered a bit t- part of the retreat- We’re in week two- I could s- … I think by now, yeah.

Exactly. I could say, “Oh, I’d love to go to the local farmer’s market and see what there is,” and that is just my heaven, you know. Um, and, um- A supermarket

Katherine May: in [00:44:00] a foreign country- Yeah … or a, or a- Oh, my God … outdoor market. It’s the dream, isn’t it? Oh, it’s the dream. I love that. I could wander around

Yasmin Khan: them for ages.

Uh, it’s just fascinating. Oh, look at these noodles, and look at that. So- Yeah … um, I … And, and then just having that, you know, putting some music on- Yeah … cooking something slowly. D- That just would be lovely. And hopefully I could find some people in

Katherine May: some nearby huts to come and visit me. To share the food with.

To share. Yeah, I mean, that’s the problem with cooking for yourself. I mean, I, I actually love cooking for myself because I, um, uh, you can, you can just tailor it- Mm … exactly to what you f- you want at, at that very moment, and I kind of, I love not having to think about other people when I’m cooking now. Mm.

Um, but I also love cooking for a crowd. I think that’s a real pleasure in life, and I … If anything’s gonna send me home from a re- a retreat, it’s because I’m ready to share again, to bring people- Yes … to the table.

Yeah.

So is there a specific cookbook you’d bring with you?

Yasmin Khan: I thought long and hard about this.

I have a huge cookbook [00:45:00] collection. I mean- I would, uh- … several hundred books. And It’s quite difficult to choose one that would fit this moment. But I’m gonna go for a classic, um, because just like in literature, there are classics of cookbooks. And I’m gonna choose How to Eat by Nigella Lawson, which I have, I have a, I think I have a first edition.

Like, it- Yeah … it’s like a, I have an old- Yeah … it’s an old book. Mine’s very splattered. And, you know, the, lots of the corners are turned in. And I picked it up, um, actually looking for toddler meals a few months ago. ‘Cause I thought, “Right, Nigella-” It’s got everything … she’ll have some ideas. Yeah. And, uh, but it’s got everything.

But more than that, um, as well as it, so it’s an encyclopedia of food. So, um, I would nev- so, you know, it goes across different cuisines, different- Mm … um, courses. And different moods as well. So I certainly would never be bored. Like what kind of mood- Different moods … you’re in and what kind

Katherine May: of food. It’s [00:46:00] such a wonderful book.

Exactly.

Yasmin Khan: And, and I think this is something that, um, cannot be said enough. You know, Nigella Lawson’s writing is just absolutely exceptional, entertaining. Her, I mean, I was laughing. Uh- She’s a literary stylist … like, yeah, she, yeah. She is. Yeah. And it, it, the jokes in there were r- like, uh, incredibly funny. The, the kind of pieces, you know, the, there are bits that are very moving.

It’s very evocative. Mm. And you have great recipes. So it, you know, it, I could both read it and cook from it. Um- It’s a great choice … so that, that would be my book. Great choice. And I, you know, I really recommend it if people don’t have it. It, it, it has stood the test of time, which actually in cookbooks, which is such a changing- Yeah

um, genre, that, that isn’t easy to

Katherine May: do. There are a lot of cookbooks that look very beautiful, but you actually find that you don’t want to eat anything from them, or that you can’t because they’re too time-consuming and complex. Um, [00:47:00] How to Eat is just, I mean, it, i- it’s probably the most thumbed cookbook I have.

I just, uh, there, there, because it’s got charts for how long to cook certain things, and handy little recipes. And it, it certainly, I think I, it’s probably one of the books I learnt to cook from in my 20s. I think it’s one of

Yasmin Khan: the books I learnt to cook from as well. Yeah. Yeah. I’m just thinking- That and Going Sleaford

the lemon meringue pie. It- Oh. Her recipe for lemon meringue pie is so good. I really remember being in this flat share in Brixton in my 20s. And thinking I was very, like, fancy by, like, making a lemon meringue pie when people were coming over, you know. Yeah. And yeah, it’s got everything.

Katherine May: It is probably time for you to come home now.

Oh. But how long would you stay, and how would you know when you’re ready? Hmm. In the

Yasmin Khan: absolute dream situation. It’s hard. It’s hard in this current context. Um, in, in the current context or, like, if I didn’t have a [00:48:00] child? I mean- It’s hard to imagine that … imagining that there’ll be no impact on the child whatsoever if you- Imagining there’d be no impact, I think, like, three weeks to a month would be great.

Oh, that’s a lovely amount of time. I mean, I would go long. But I just can’t imagine ever, you know, wanting to leave my-

Katherine May: No Not

Yasmin Khan: leave. I’m trying not to use the word leave actually around this, the language of this. Yeah. Because I’d often say, “Oh, I left,” you know? “I left.” Like, I didn’t. She s- Yeah Um- And, and she was well cared for by her other parent

I went away, and she was with someone. She wasn’t left in any sense. No. It’s interesting. I’m trying to not use that word. Yeah. But, um, it’s interesting how that’s the first thing that comes up. But let’s say, let’s say three weeks or two weeks. Mm. I’m making it shorter and shorter now. You’re … Yeah, yeah. It’s gradually

Katherine May: getting shorter.

I think I love a three-week break. I really- I think a three week’s good. Yeah. I love a three week. One week is just decon- Like, you’re just still- Yeah … tight- The first week is a write-off. You’re sleeping it off. Yeah. You’re kind of getting rid of all the little adjustments to the new sounds in a place- Mm

or how the pillows are a slightly different height and all of that kind of stuff. [00:49:00] Week two, your eyes get their sparkle back. Mm. Week three, you’re just … I’m a creative monster in week three. Yes. My brain is like, “Yes, come on.” Yeah. And then I get homesick.

Yasmin Khan: And then you kinda want to come home. So I think you’re right.

Let’s go for three weeks. That would be the sweet spot. I mean, it’s a

Katherine May: long flight as well. That’s the other thing I was saying. Yeah. You don’t want those flights too close together. And is there something you bring back home with you?

Yasmin Khan: Well, I would bring … I would visit the local supermarket- Yes … and I would just be filling my suitcase-

with, um, probably, like, spices and … I mean, you have to be careful. You can’t bring fruit, can you? Although you can at the airport in Bangkok get mango sticky rice that they put in a container that- Oh, wow … because it’s quite cold on the plane, it does last until you get home. It’s okay. Yeah. But I would, I would, I would, you know, I’d get the noodles.

I’d get any, like, nice [00:50:00] little sauces. Um- Also- I love coming back with food … a really good,

Katherine May: like, cooking implement that isn’t available locally. I love that.

Yasmin Khan: Yes. I’ve got so many of those actually from my travels, and I love that about, um … And none, you know, my kitchen isn’t a … Like, everything, nothing matches- Yeah

and it’s all kind of … It’s, it, you know, it’s not one of those, you know, Instagram kitchens. But it, you know, there are things from all over the world, you know? There’s plates from Morocco or, like, a, a, like, a pestle and mortar for, that I got kind of in Mexico. Or, um, you know, these, these, these things that have got real life in them and- Yeah

have a

Katherine May: real sense of place. And do exactly the right job when you’re cooking exactly the right thing. There’s a, there’s such a joy to that that is really underestimated. I-

Yasmin Khan: I also feel that cooking can be its own little mini retreat sometimes. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It can- You can make that space, can’t you, from that

if you can, it really can. And not the [00:51:00] everyday cooking, but the, “Oh, I’m gonna cook this for myself for no- Yeah … reason.” It’s the pressure, I think, of, of the everyday cooking, um, or the guest cooking- Yeah … that can make it feel a bit

Katherine May: stressy. And the boredom, I think, sometimes, and the fitting it into small spaces of time and- Yes

yeah. That lovely inspired cooking or … I li- I love those. I mean, I love autumn, and partly that’s because I love making kind of pickles and things like that. I had a lovely afternoon with a bucket of damsons last September, and it was such a great time. They were so fiddly. They were really annoying. The stones are a nightmare.

And it took, I don’t know, five hours to make two jars of jam because damsons just hate you. But passing it all through a sieve and, like, picking all those, skimming all those stones off. But it gave me so much joy. And I called it, in the end, a jam facial ’cause I was so- … hot and steamed. I’d stood over this [00:52:00] bubbling pan of damson jam for so many hours.

I was bright red, possibly dyed by the damsons. But it was- … it was such a joy, and I’m already looking forward to doing it all over again this autumn. There’s a magic to that. There’s a magic. There’s a real magic to it. Yeah. It’s so- Well, you’re a witch with your c- Yeah … great big cauldron- Exactly … stirring it, yeah.

Yeah. Yasmin, thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure to talk to you.

Yasmin Khan: Thank you so much, Katherine.

Katherine May: Welcome back to my rather noisy walk. It’s funny. As I’m walking, I’m thinking about last week’s podcast, if you haven’t listened to it already, with the brilliant Jeffrey Boakye So basically we’re laying the foundations- … who chose as his retreat- More than 250- … a walk through London. And I have to say, I immediately thought what a great idea [00:53:00] because I love walking cities too.

But today I’m doing it, and it is so invigorating. There’s such a lot to take in. It’s not just the sights, but it’s also the different smells, the smells of food cooking, the drifts of incense coming out of the shops, the sound, so many different languages, so much music. The, even the loud buses I’m okay with ’cause I don’t call this place home I think I’d probably find it an awful lot harder if I had to live here full time.

I think I’d find it very stressful. There’s no sea around here, and I need some sea nearby. But it’s such a joy to be doing this. Oh, and thank goodness for little walks in between hospital visits to get a little [00:54:00] bit of fresh air and to stretch my legs and to be able to look around me a bit and to feel the weather.

I’m even enjoying the fact that it’s quite cold this week. And when I say quite cold, really cold. I didn’t bring enough warm stuff with me, and I’m having to wear two T-shirts and a

jacket.

But it’s really nice to feel the air on my face, and I’m grateful for it today. Well, listen, I’m gonna leave you all to this.

But I hope you’ll join me again next week for another fantastic guest. And I hope you’ll find a way to take a little break, however quiet or noisy. And I think today is a good reminder that retreats are not always silent in your life. I’ll see you really soon. [00:55:00] Bye.