Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello, Clearings. I don’t think I’ve given you that nickname before, only in my head, but maybe it’s time to say it out loud. I am back out on my walks, feeling much, much better. Still get a bit tired, but not too bad actually. So I’m taking you for a walk along the coast this morning. Unfortunately, that means that we will be walking past the gravel processing works, which may get a little bit noisy, uh, but that is all part of the local color of Whitstable.

Real life happening all around while I’m walking the dog, who is now looking at me as if to say, “Oh, don’t make me go too much further.” We’ll turn back soon, Fraggle. It’ll be okay. Oh, I’m enjoying [00:01:00] today a little bit of spring sunshine. It’s been freezing here all week. I have been out with the dog the last couple of days, and been so cold that I’ve wished I was in my winter coat.

And so today obviously I went out in a coat and a scarf, and now I am really very hot, but I’m not taking the scarf off because I like it. Yeah, no sense. Well, this week we have a guest who I know you’re gonna love, and know you probably already love, and that is the delightful Kate Bowler. She of the Everything Happens empire, a series of brilliant books which began with her stage four cancer diagnosis and miraculous survival.

But really that’s not why we read her, I don’t think, and listen to her online. [00:02:00] I think Kate’s deep appeal is her humanness, her humor, her ability to find the light and shade in everything. And, you know, she… When we’ve spoken before, she’s often said, you know, “Obviously I’m intolerably religious,” but she’s not at all.

She is somebody who manages to make her spiritual beliefs seem so natural and joyful without ever proselytizing or making you feel uncomfortable about them. But also, I really think embodying what it means to walk that walk fully and un-smugly, and to show the absolute delight in it. Her new book, which I’m very proud to have provided a little cover quote for- Oops.

There’s a little bit of a [00:03:00] log jam here of doggies. I’ve got to make sure Fraggle doesn’t growl at anyone as she goes past. No, we’re clear. We’re clear. We did well. We did well. Sorry. Her new book, um, which I am very proud to have added a little cover quote for, is called Joyful Anyway, and it returns to her key themes of surviving terrible things, getting through the trials and tribulations of everyday life, and finding joy, but not the kind of joy that forgets what the world’s really like or tries to paint it in a different way.

Joy while acknowledging the grimness. And fairly early on in the book, there is a really moving passage where she talks about having her surgical drain taken out and how awful it was while she was recovering in hospital, which I had to run and show my husband, [00:04:00] who had had a similar experience. And I think Kate’s ability to voice moments like that, never to lose the slight smile at the edge of things, but also to kind of move us and help us to see our own humanity, is just wonderful.

It was lovely to talk to her, of course. And you will not be entirely surprised at the retreat she chooses. Kate is a proud Canadian, and this is a deeply Canadian retreat. But what didn’t surprise me either was that she didn’t go it alone, that she brought someone with her. This is a sociable soul at work, taking huge delight in her time with loved ones.

Well, with that, while I’m crunching over some shingle, hope you’re enjoying the soundscape here, I will leave you with Kate, [00:05:00] and I’ll be back in a little while.

Kate Bowler: Kate Bowler,

Katherine May: welcome to The Clearing.

Kate Bowler: I could not be happier to be talking to you.

Katherine May: Well, I’m really hoping to give you, like, an hour of slight relaxation in the mid of what I’m sure is a big book tour- … which is not restful. But how are you? How do we find you today?

Kate Bowler: You know, I was actually just really looking forward to talking to you.

You’re somebody I really thought about when I was writing this book, so.

Katherine May: Ah, yeah. I really enjoyed reading it as well.

Kate Bowler: You have, like, um, a spirit of constant, like, soulful curiosity that I find so encouraging.

Katherine May: Well, I try. Um, I’m not sure if … There are, there are some phases in life when I feel less curious about anything.

Yes. But, uh, I do do my best. But I think, um, I think- I think our work resonates with each other, and I think one of the reasons is that we’re just both quite down-to-earth [00:06:00] people. Like, we’re both interested in quite big spiritual ideas and- Yeah … how to cope, which is a huge question, but we’re very disinterested in any nonsense around it, frankly.

I think- Yes … it’s probably fair to say. Yes,

Kate Bowler: I agree. We do have a core of no-nonsensory.

Katherine May: If you want someone to tell you everything’s gonna be okay forever, we are- … we’re not your girls.

Kate Bowler: We’re not it. Sorry.

Katherine May: We’re of no use to you. Sorry. We’re gonna just tell you how grim it is, but it’s, but we’re gonna giggle.

Kate Bowler: Yeah, yeah, a big hug. Yeah. Little whisper in the ear, “I’m so sorry.” “It’s awful. It’s all terrible, but it’s okay.”

Katherine May: Exactly. So this is a podcast about the rest we dream of taking, as opposed quite often to the rest we do take.

Kate Bowler: Mm-hmm.

Katherine May: I wonder what kind of a rester you are. Are you someone that is ever able to take a break, or [00:07:00] are you as perky and delightful as we see you on Instagram-

all the time?

Kate Bowler: I’m not a good rester, in part because even my attempts to, like, become more intentional about my life usually has been, in my mind, synonymous with, like, “Well, let’s just speed up.” Yeah. What, well, before- Let’s go into it … I used to be a very achievy person because I believed that life was a ladder and I could keep climbing.

But then when I got a stage four cancer diagnosis, I found that I just became almost more brittle about time and- Mm … a little frantic even while attempting to rest.

Katherine May: Yeah. And that has a kind of long tail into the rest of life, doesn’t it? Because there’s that kind of reminder always of how short things can possibly be- Yeah

whenever you kind of think of, of taking it easy.

Kate Bowler: I do have one l- like [00:08:00] superhighway feeling to when time can become very elastic and you stop counting, and that feels very restful for me. Mm. And my bridge is absurdity. I think other people could be like a rainbow or a lovely stroll outside. And mine is like, “Is something ridiculous happening?”

Because I get more, like, deep enjoyment and, like, I-don’t-know-what-time-it-is out of a really ridiculous thing than I do out of anything else.

Katherine May: That, well, maybe, I mean, that’s very philosophical. Like, I’m thinking about Albert Camus and the Absurd there. I mean, there is- Yeah … to have a relationship with how silly- The universe is, I think is so healthy, and I, I do worry about the seriousness of the way that we take everyday life now.

Like, it … Like, that’s in no way to deny that it’s awful, but I just think that we have always laughed at the darkest points in, in human history, and I really think it’s important to continue laughing in the [00:09:00] face of it for as, as long as we can possibly make the sound.

Kate Bowler: Yes. Yes. I think, um, it was, uh, the lovely writer Miriam Toews.

She wrote this gorgeous book actually, mostly about despair. Um, and it was … Oh, she’d used a line from Christian Wiman who wr- wrote that beautiful book, My Bright Abyss. Oh, yes. Mm. Her book was called The Truce That Is Not Peace.

Katherine May: That’s right. It’s a line from it as well. I was desperately trying to seek my mind for it, ’cause it’s quite an unusual title, isn’t it?

Yes. It’s a really beautiful title. So- Incredible book …

Kate Bowler: uh, so what happens when you’re held by something that isn’t exactly that soulful rest and, but feels more like a hostage situation. And-

Katherine May: Oh …

Kate Bowler: she, um, when I was … When, when we were talking about how she finds her way back into a sense of self, if she can’t get to, how do you get through despair, which has a sort of nihilism to it?

Katherine May: Mm. Yeah.

Kate Bowler: How do you get through that feeling that there’s not [00:10:00] a reason for anything, and then back? And, and, and she found that that little space of absurdity where you can look at nothing making sense, and it can make you laugh-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Kate Bowler: as a, like, almost, it’s like her little bridge then back to delight, and then back into, like, lo- loving some form of her life again.

Yeah. And I just think that, that little arc feels always like a hero’s- It’s really lovely … journey when I see it in somebody.

Katherine May: Yeah. I think it’s the sort of sense of not worrying too much about hope itself, but just walking away from despair seems to be the … I, I, well, I think, you know, whenever I read her novels, there’s just that amazing ability to find humor in every corner, and- To, like, revel in the sheer quirkiness of people It’s just such a gorgeous thing to be able to do, to just really enjoy- Yes

the weirdness of humanity.

Kate Bowler: I totally agree. I have this kid who loves, uh, the weird as much as I do, [00:11:00] and I’m feeling very stressed out lately. And I find that when I wake up, I, like, I don’t know what day it is, I feel quite overwhelmed. But lately I’ve been starting the day with a song where I’ll open the door, and I’m, like, 90% asleep, and I’ll call across the little balcony to my kid.

I’ll be like, “Good morning. It is the morning.” Like, not sure where he’s going. And my favorite is I’ll hear his little voice call back, and he’s like, “And you are my mom.” It’s just so

Katherine May: funny. The Bowlers, the opera.

Kate Bowler: I just love it.

Katherine May: I hope you’ll be bringing that to the Edinburgh Festival this year. I love it. So that,

Kate Bowler: that’s been, that’s been exactly what I want.

Katherine May: We will have to find our way through. That’s it. Okay. Well, let me invite you into my clearing in that case, ’cause it sounds like you maybe need it. Um, I have this clearing in the woods, but I hand it [00:12:00] over to you really to decide on the landscape.

Kate Bowler: Hmm.

Katherine May: But it’s the place where you can take that perfect get away from it all when life gets too much.

Where would that be for you? What landscape would we find ourselves if we were gonna offer you that rest that you need?

Kate Bowler: Oh, I know exactly where it’d be. I’m from nowhere in Canada. It’s my favorite place, called Manitoba, and we’ve got a beautiful set of lakes. And it’s infested with loons, haunting, horrifying loons.

And the water is previous glacier melt, so it’s unbelievably cold.

Katherine May: Perfect.

Kate Bowler: But it’s always the feeling of being at the very edge of the dock and looking at a deep, gorgeous expanse of cold water- Mm … and listening to the loons and seeing our gorgeous pine trees and just having the sense that all is…

You’re too far out there to even imagine you’d have something else to do.

Katherine May: Yeah, [00:13:00] lovely. Do you get back there much? Do, do you get to travel back?

Kate Bowler: In the summer I do. Yeah. Just special to me. I like– So I’m Canadian, and I live in the States, and I like to repatriate hard. So I go

Katherine May: home and do that. Do the kind of Canadian habits slip back in as soon as you cross the border?

What, what comes back?

Kate Bowler: Well, the first thing is to stop, w- ’cause every Canadian has an overwhelming desire to say eh, but can’t. And then I end up saying hey, where I’m like- … “It’s really, this water’s really cold, hey.” So first thing is my ehs come back. Nice. Second thing is we go around complaining about, uh, the city not fixing the potholes.

Yeah. That’s just an important part. Then we drive to the- Oh, we love

Katherine May: that in Whitstable too. That’s our favorite conversation, yeah.

Kate Bowler: Okay. Well then, you’re more than welcome. You’d

Katherine May: fit right in here. We’d just- We love

Kate Bowler: that … we are worried about this. We don’t have fast roads. That’s always an issue. You know, just a general sense, um, that things are not as they should be, and it pleases us somehow.

Katherine May: Mm, mm. It can’t be right, can it? That would be… I mean, this is, this is where the true kind of [00:14:00] British lineage in Canada comes through, I think. Like, it would be a terrible thing if everything would be working, ’cause what would we talk about? What would we do with ourselves? It would be just a, a great tragedy in our lives.

Exactly. I

Kate Bowler: remember I came home one from, I came home to Canada, and I could tell that the person picking me up from the airport, doesn’t matter if it’s a family or friend, has the overwhelming desire to drive me immediately to the floodway to see how the recent floodwaters have been doing- Oh, of course

Katherine May: and

Kate Bowler: complain about the volume of sticks.

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, that sounds like a really good day out, in fact. I hope you’ve got a flask of disgusting Tate’s coffee to come with you as well.

Kate Bowler: Tim Horton’s.

Katherine May: Mm, mm. That’s

Kate Bowler: right.

Katherine May: So would you come ba- would it be in the summer that you’d picture this-

Kate Bowler: Yeah

Katherine May: ideal retreat time? Is that, is that the best time to be there?

Kate Bowler: That’s the best time. It’s perfect.

Katherine May: Too cold the rest of the year?

Kate Bowler: It’s, Canada in the winter, especially where I’m from, it’s, it’s beautiful and stark and white [00:15:00] and bright, and it’s almost like being on the moon.

Katherine May: Mm.

Kate Bowler: I mean, and if you ever go ice fishing, you can feel rumbling underneath you, and it sounds like an earthquake, but it’s the sound of ice shifting slowly- Oh, wow

deeply under your feet. So it’s, it’s quite stunning, um, and bracing. But it’s the summer that feels, to me, like peace.

Katherine May: I have a Pinterest board of, uh, photos of the cabins that Canadians put on the ice to go ice fishing. I love them. Oh

Kate Bowler: my gosh. Well, if you ever come, I would totally take you. My brother-in-law is a bear hunter.

Katherine May: Oh,

Kate Bowler: wow. And he also takes us ice fishing.

Katherine May: I, I don’t think I could handle the bear hunting, but, um- Oh, won’t do that … ice fishing.

Kate Bowler: Mm-hmm.

Katherine May: I think it’s just the ca- it’s not the fishing, it’s the cabin. I just love, I love a cabin. I just can’t stop myself. They’re so beautiful, and they’re all different colors.

They’re really lovely.

Kate Bowler: That’s

Katherine May: true. Okay. They’re

Kate Bowler: beautiful. I would take you. These ones are pop-up things. They’re like [00:16:00] $80,000 pop-up cabins on the ice. So it’s almost like, it looks like in the movie The Martian where they built a greenhouse on-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Kate Bowler: you know? That’s

Katherine May: it. Yeah, that, yeah. I’m obsessed. Okay.

So you’re gonna return to Canada for your rest. Where would you stay? Have you got, would you stay with family? Or is there, like, a, a dream structure that you would inhabit? Please make it an ice cabin. No, not really

Kate Bowler: It’s an ice cabin, for sure. It would have a sign

Katherine May: Frigid underfoot.

Kate Bowler: It would, it would have a sign that was supposed to say welcome, but you bought it at the dollar store, and it just says wellium by accident.

Katherine May: You see, I’m here for this. This is my kind of place. I don’t think anyone really wants to stay at an ice cabin, though I do get it. Yeah.

Kate Bowler: No. That’s

Katherine May: right I’ll let you stay somewhere else. That’s fine.

Kate Bowler: No, it would be a lovely cabin. It would have a lot of decorative oars.

Katherine May: Yes. A lot of- On the side of a lake.

Kate Bowler: We have a, we have this, [00:17:00] it’s terrible that it is, like, consi- it’s really colonial chic, but the only decoration we have for cabins is from the Hudson’s Bay Company, which is, of course, the company that used to own Canada. And so we, we always have Hudson Bay Company blankets, and we really- Wow … all have just one welcome to the cabin decorating aesthetic, and it would be that.

Katherine May: That sounds just perfect, though, and just incredibly cozy. Would you have a tiny cabin, or, or, you know, you can have a spa cabin if you like. Like, what are the, what are the mod cons in this cabin?

Kate Bowler: Mm, they’re all the same size, so I pick the medium size one, and it just all has a view of the lake. That’s what it would be.

Katherine May: Lovely. Hot tub?

Kate Bowler: I would pick a hot tub- Yeah … if I were, if I were in charge.

Katherine May: Yeah. But yeah, put that in. Well, you’re allowed to be. You’re in charge of this, so you can, you can have a, you know, a full gymnasium underground if you want. It’s really up to

Kate Bowler: you. That’s right. Then there’s a yoga room, and then there’s a, uh, and then there’s a hot tub, yeah.

Katherine May: So are you alone in this [00:18:00] cabin? How do you feel about solitude, or do you bring folk with you?

Kate Bowler: I almost always bring one of my best friends because I, there’s something to me about, I find that it’s very difficult to give myself the grace that a good friend gives when they act as a, as a true witness.

Katherine May: Mm.

Kate Bowler: So just having the friend that you laugh with but then mostly reminds you of both the goodness and the structure of whatever conflict you’re going through, I find that I really need a friend for that.

Katherine May: I love you as- that you assume you are going through a conflict at this

Kate Bowler: moment. Always. And also, exactly.

It’s, even in my greatest dreams, it’s pretty terrible.

Katherine May: There must be, like, “Yeah, in my fantasy, I’m going through this terrible conflict. I’m escaping something horrible.” Always.

Kate Bowler: That’s so funny.

Yeah. Wow. I am nothing but, nothing but a realist at heart. Yeah. It’s

Katherine May: one battle after another,

Kate Bowler: but- [00:19:00] Exactly.

Katherine May: So yeah, what, what do you guys do while you’re together? Is there, like, I mean, do you row? Do these oars ever come off the wall? Or what do you do when you have got the space and nothing on your agenda?

Kate Bowler: Yeah. Well, my, I’ve got a couple favorite things. One is- We’ll take a kayak out and, or a canoe, but I like a kayak. And then-

Katherine May: Oh, tell us the difference. I’m never sure.

Kate Bowler: Oh, um, well-

Katherine May: Is this, is this a thing that’s obvious to Canadians and not to anyways? No,

Kate Bowler: it’s fine. It’s fine. Yeah, my watercraft knowhow is quite good.

Like, what? Um, well, it’s funny, growing up in Canada, you do a lot of, when you have to carry a canoe, I don’t know why there’s a special word for carrying a canoe, but portaging is what you- Oh, wow … is the word for carrying a canoe. And canoes are, uh, insanely and horrifyingly heavy. And because they have to ballast it in the fr- in

Katherine May: the front and back [00:20:00] by, like, really lowing it, loading it up.

So e- even in my little eight-year-old arms, we’d be just like, h- this Herculean feat to- … put it over

Kate Bowler: my head. Um, yeah, canoes are super heavy, and they’re typically, they’re for two or three people and, uh, and they’re almost always the same size. Kayaks are really low to the water. You often kinda tuck yourself in, and you fully sit on your butt, like, right next to the water.

Oh, okay. They’re very light. You have two paddle on both sides. And, um, they’re very agile and very fun for one person in particular. Okay.

Katherine May: So what are you taking? You’re taking a canoe.

Kate Bowler: Oh, I’ll take a kayak, another friend will have another kayak. You’ll take a kayak. Okay. We actually do that a fair bit. Like, even here in North Carolina, there’s a little lake nearby, and on a any kind of warm day, my friend and I will put salads in a canoe, and usually a, a kayak and a bottle of wine, and we’ll just, like, row out to the middle of a lake.

Katherine May: That sounds so serene.

Kate Bowler: It’s… Well, there’s always a blue heron, which just is such an enormous awkward baby [00:21:00] dinosaur bird. I just love it.

Katherine May: They’re lovely. I think they’re extraordinary when you see them flying, and it, it’s absolutely impossible for them to be in the air, surely. Yeah. But nevertheless, there they are, like- Yeah

flapping slowly like dinosaurs. They’re amazing. They

Kate Bowler: are just school buses in the sky.

Katherine May: Incredible things. I got obsessed in Sri Lanka with pelicans, which are even bigger and even more impossible to keep alight, surely. But they, there they are. They’re just flapping away like these prehistoric creatures across the lake.

It’s amazing.

Kate Bowler: I think the other nice thing about lakes, I will say, um, in Canada, is that there’s really nothing in them. Like, here in the south and further south, you can be surprised by what we call murder logs, which is just alligators. Things that look-

Katherine May: Okay …

Kate Bowler: things that are, look decorative but are there to kill you.

But

Katherine May: we- Something there to eat you, possibly, yeah.

Kate Bowler: Yeah. Just snacky snack. But the, what’s so nice is just there’s nothing that’s gonna murder you in a [00:22:00] Canadian lake.

Katherine May: That’s, that’s great, actually. I think that’s probably preferable. So kayaking. Anything- Mm-hmm … are you a hiker, or are you more of a, like, staying in girl?

Kate Bowler: I love a long, long walk. Mm-hmm. And we have these really beautiful forests. But I also really like, and this works everywhere you are in Canada, but other than going out in, on the lake- My other great love is, um, pulling up an app called Roadside America, which also has Canadian stops, and it will be driving out to a remote location to see, like, the world’s largest northern lake trout or something insane.

Like some historical oddity. And I have done that, I mean, at least once every two months my entire life, and it just- Oh, that’s great … delights me like nothing else.

Katherine May: Just go and see a really odd, odd thing. ‘

Kate Bowler: Cause it’s not just that it’s large and dumb, but it immediately invites a whole [00:23:00] story of who built this large, dumb thing.

Yeah. Like, why was a turtle, a ceramic plaster turtle named Tommy on a, on a s- on a Ski-Doo, uh, on a- … basin of recycled tires? Like, who? Why? Like why?

Katherine May: Who? When?

Kate Bowler: The journey. And then you immediately are like, “I need to find out.” Yeah. And so all of a sudden you’re, like, in the town getting gas, asking about Tommy.

Who made Tommy? What’s his, what’s his motivation? So I do it all the time.

Katherine May: I think that’s just, that just sounds like a lovely thing to do with your time. And I, I was going to ask actually whether you were the sort of person who would go Wi-Fi-free, but it sounds like you might, you might need the Wi-Fi for your apps.

Are y- But do you, do you ever go offline? Do you manage to do that?

Kate Bowler: I guess if I was with a friend, I wouldn’t use my Wi-Fi at all. I find that because I don’t have hobbies, I really have friends. I find that with friends, I just, the, the [00:24:00] bottomlessness of time is so beautiful.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kate Bowler: So as long as I had a friend there.

Just 100%. If I was alone, I… So my friend always thought it, ’cause I tried to go kayaking by myself, and then I found I was, like, always on the phone awkwardly rowing with one hand because I really, I’m, like, so secretly extroverted at heart. So my, my friend thought it’d be funny to create, like, a limited television series called The Extroverted Kayaker-

about someone who just can’t be alone. So

Katherine May: Rowing around in circles.

Kate Bowler: Yeah. Hi, hi, hi. Hi, hi, hi. Anyone doing anything? Okay.

Katherine May: It is really hard. I mean, I, I, I really, I really, really do try and put my phone down. And I think one of the reasons I love walking is I can’t walk and look at my phone. I’m not- Yes

coordinated enough to do that. And so, and I can’t swim and look at my phone. But my problem is that there’s, I love, I love having a little thing to read. Like, I find it very, very hard to not be reading something, and I was the kid who used to sit and read shampoo bottles out of [00:25:00] desperation. You know, that’s my…

It’s a low ba- it’s a low bar for me. I will read anything that you put in front of me. And I, I just see… I’m not interested in TikTok videos or whatever. I’m not even looking at kitten content.

Kate Bowler: No.

Katherine May: There’s just so much out there to read, and I’m trying to read the entire internet, and I wish people would stop telling me I can’t.

That is so relatable.

Kate Bowler: Yeah. Like, just give me something to read …

Katherine May: just give me something to read, just some little snippet of something that I can hook my brain onto and go, “Ooh, wait. Well, who wrote that?” Mm. “Well, did they write any other books? Well, what’s…” Uh, and then I’m, and then I’m happy for hours. I’m just-

Kate Bowler: Mm-hmm

Katherine May: it’s like the act of research itself is so calming to me.

Kate Bowler: Yeah. Yeah.

Katherine May: I mean, I guess you’re an academic, so it probably no longer feels calming to

Kate Bowler: you actually. Well, I do, uh, that feeling, um, that has become… I mean, that’s been [00:26:00] one of the most powerful things I’ve really experienced as a, as a woman, like someone who was so attentive to other people’s needs, other people’s happiness.

And it was learning how to fall into a pit of research that really made me a feminist and has been one of the only ways I know how to quiet my own heart and mind and feel that, the power of it and the flow of it, and the, like the d- I feel, I like to feel hemmed in by it.

Katherine May: Oh, I just, I think some of my happiest times are when I’m researching something for a book, and therefore I have full permission to know everything about it.

I have to because I have to kind of, I feel like I have to be able to defend it, you know? Like I- Yes. Me too … you know, I don’t, I don’t wanna put a, a random quote in my book and not know where that quote came from or what context it was said in because… And I quite often res- this is bad. I quite often research other people’s [00:27:00] quotes that they put online for that reason- Oh.

Oh, right … because the number of times that quote does not mean what they’re using it for, and I, I feel like it’s my personal responsibility to check that. I’m not gonna correct them online, but I just walk away going, “Hmm, no. They didn’t-” Mm. Mm. Mm … they just got that off the internet. That’s not good.”

Kate Bowler: Exactly. And if, the feeling like, I mean, even borrowing somebody else’s quote, it feels like the privilege that you then have to l- you have to gently detach from its other little tendrils to do it. Mm. And I, I like knowing, and I like picking, like, a fresh one, you know? A

Katherine May: nice fresh new one. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good thing.

I mean, I’ve, I think I’m… Oh, this is probably controversial, but I have a problem with the reliance on quotes on the internet altogether now, rather than- More global understanding of a text. Yeah Like, the number of times I see people saying, “Oh, I’ve just read this great book called Wintering, and [00:28:00] it’s full of good quotes.”

And it’s like- … wait, no. This is the … I bet you get the same. Like, this is not here for you to, like, pick, like, some dreadful carcass after Christmas to scatter across your socials. Like, that, that is, that is not what this is. It makes me really-

Kate Bowler: Exactly right …

Katherine May: it’s such a terrible way to think of the world.

Like, how can I raid it for my own content, and that’s it. That’s the extent of the meaning it has to me.

Kate Bowler: Yeah. And also just, I mean, what a terrible thing to imagine that all of life’s experiences can be distilled into these 12-word aphorisms. Yeah. I mean-

Katherine May: Into one sentence that you’ve probably mis-edited.

Exactly.

Kate Bowler: Exactly. I mean, I like … One of my favorite books, m- I’m sure it’s many people’s favorite, is Cormac McCarthy’s The Road, right?

Katherine May: Oh, my goodness.

Kate Bowler: It’s apocalyptic and horrifying- Oh, I d- … and it’s a story of a father and son … couldn’t call it my

Katherine May: favorite. I think it’s [00:29:00] possibly the most depressing thing that I ever managed to get to the end of.

Kate Bowler: Yes. It’s just bleak, dismal, horrifying. But, you know, and it’s a confrontation of love at the end of the world. And then it do- … And so I, I when I think of the quote, um, of him looking at his son, and he said, “If that boy is not the word of God, then God never spoke.” Mm. And, like, that quote is only beautiful to me because the story itself is so wildly compelling.

Yeah, yeah. It’s true. And in that one moment, we can all picture looking into the face of someone fragile who we love and saying that there is somehow this strange sacred transmission that happens between people- Mm … and we couldn’t have known otherwise. That to me is, like, what a quote can do is like a little teleporter- Yeah

to a whole world that, that … and that world improved me. Mm. But if that quote is not taking you somewhere else-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Kate Bowler: then we all getting real dumb also.

Katherine May: And if, if you just know that quote and know nothing about the book, then you’re gonna [00:30:00] get a very strange impression about them.

Kate Bowler: Why is God-

Katherine May: It’s really not that kind of book

Kate Bowler: why is God speaking to children?

Katherine May: There is not a lot of God in evidence in a lot of that book.

Kate Bowler: No.

Katherine May: Um, but that, but that’s why it’s so wonderful because there’s this, like, little distillation of, of grace- Yes … that he, that he glimpses, and it’s quite brief. Um- Yes … incredible book. I always ask people if they- Are going to, if they’d like to bring a kind of cultural artifact with them onto their retreat.

Um, I think, I think The Road doesn’t sound very relaxing to, to bring with you. But I mean, the door’s open. But I wonder also, if you do read when you’re away, or would you prefer to have an inspiring painting on the wall or a movie to watch or an aria to play over the stereo? Like, what, how do you, what do you immerse in?

Kate Bowler: I, [00:31:00] I read a lot for my job. Um, and so sometimes I find I’m a little burdened by the volume of-

Katherine May: Oh, I hear you. Yeah …

Kate Bowler: how much I… I mean, it’s, it is a privilege. It’s why I went into this job in the first place, so that I could get to read as my job. But it does mean that my downtime reading isn’t always… I need something that more feels like active discovery.

Mm. And one version of it is a, is a book my dad gave me when I was really little called Masterpieces, and it would have these gorgeous works of art, and then it would have pages and pages of kind of a version of, like, Where’s Waldo?, where it’ll have, like- … an unusual, like a really grouchy bird. And then you get to go through all the famous works of art and try to find that grouchy bird.

And- Oh, that

Katherine May: sounds wonderful …

Kate Bowler: it is how I love, you know, like, the National Portrait Gallery is one of my very favorites because when you wander through… Um, one of the series I like to create as an ongoing series in my own mind is called Babies Behaving Badly. [00:32:00] In which it’s rage-y cherubs and, like you know, it’s just, like, flagrant nudity everywhere.

So if I could, like, pick an activity that was both, like, engaging and relaxing, I would pick big, gorgeous lie-flat art books- Oh … where I could find, like, a, my own little Where’s Waldo? of Babies Behaving Badly or something.

Katherine May: Oh, that sounds gorgeous. And do you have a favorite kind of movement or era of art today?

It sounds like you need grandmasters for this, really. I

Kate Bowler: do. Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. I do. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna find it in a Rembrandt or a Bruegel or a,

Katherine May: you know- You need a big kind of Rubens altarpiece or something that you can, like- Yes. … pore over for hours and hours and hours. And

Kate Bowler: then this sort of sound in the background where it’s like, “Dun, dun, dun, dun.”

You know? It’s just like, “Oh.” “Hope these babies will be okay.”

Katherine May: I mean, I feel like we could line the walls of your imaginary cabin with [00:33:00] giant, detailed allegorical paintings.

Kate Bowler: Yes.

Katherine May: And you could just kind of- We could make, just make it more physical. You know, you could kind of roam the walls to, to… I think this would be great.

I think this sounds very relaxing

Kate Bowler: I would love that.

Katherine May: Although you shouldn’t sleep in that room ’cause I think that would be- No … a bit too much.

Kate Bowler: Eerie. Yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kate Bowler: That’s right. Yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah. We gotta shut that

Kate Bowler: down.

Katherine May: And if you could bring something from home with you, perhaps something practical that you’d use or something sentimental that would comfort you while you were having your rest, what would you bring?

Kate Bowler: Well, I have a lot of, uh, chronic pain, and so something that makes me feel deeply comforted is an unbelievably overly elaborate bath routine where it’s like- Okay … heavily scented Epsom salts. And even if it doesn’t actually have any of the medical properties that I’m secretly hoping it does, just the, like, ritualization of old time apothecary hour combined with bath [00:34:00] makes me feel like I am, like I’m cared for, and also, you know, in some sort of sensory wonderland.

Katherine May: That sounds lovely. I am a big, big, big bathing fan, and I have sadly lost my bath in the last year because Aw. Because when my husband had to have his surgery, uh, we only had a shower over the bath, and we knew that he wouldn’t be able to step- Oh … over the bath into the show- into, yeah, to have a shower. So we had to have the bath taken away and it replaced with a lovely level shower.

It’s very beautiful. The tiles are majestic, but I have a bit of bath grief, I have to say. I do. Bit of bath grief. It was- It’s such a good thing.

Kate Bowler: It’s, it is my, it is my nightly, it’s my nightly wind-down. Everybody knows I have to go into my, like, bath nap [00:35:00] effectively Yeah … which is where it’s also one of the great social permissions for women is, “I am alone.

You can’t come in here, thank you very much.”

Katherine May: Well, there’s the theory. I don’t know. We’ve only

Kate Bowler: got

Katherine May: one bathroom in our house, so. Right. Even the cat has learnt to sort of somehow stand on her hind legs and push the door really hard- Stop … so she makes this dramatic entrance, and there she is standing in the doorway.

Yeah. What’s her name? Uh, Bibi. Bibi. My son named her Blackberry, but I think that’s a rubbish name for a cat. It’s lame. So she’s BB instead.

Kate Bowler: What would you name her instead if you could?

Katherine May: Well, so many things. All of our previous cats have been named after, um, uh, like singers. Oh. So we had Astrid, who was Astrid Gilberto, and we had Heidi, who was somebody who history forgot that my husband was into at the time.

Um, we also had Hector, ’cause male cats, couldn’t [00:36:00] name him after a diva. He was named after the great Latin band leader, Hector Rivera. I love these. So we-

Kate Bowler: Amazing …

Katherine May: so I just, I think there would’ve been, I mean, so, so many great options for accessing some kind of a diva. I mean, Shirley, Shirley Bassey surely deserves some recognition in, in the kind of pantheon of my cats at some point.

Just as an example, just to throw it out there.

Kate Bowler: I love this.

Katherine May: I just was disappointed with Blackberry. Yes. But I had said he could name her, which was a beginner’s error.

Kate Bowler: Ooh.

Katherine May: How did I not know?

Kate Bowler: We have a new, um, we don’t, we, we have a new, uh, cast member in our home. Good. And it’s a gecko, uh, who, as it turns out- Oh

will live 17 years.

Katherine May: Oh, Kate, I, I feel your pain because we have a bearded dragon [00:37:00] who will live to 30, and who two years in, my son is not aware of his existence. Stop. Not vaguely interested. Stop. We’re stuck with this thing until our old age.

Kate Bowler: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. There’s like, there has to be like estate planning involving some of these lizards.

Ugh. I’ll never forget, my sister, my older sister had a, um, a bearded dragon when she was, um, in a relationship that she didn’t want, and they would always be leaving these horrifying fetal mice to thaw out in a- Oh, you fed

Katherine May: it… Really?

Kate Bowler: I- in the bathroom. Oh. And then it was still gross.

Katherine May: We feed ours live worms.

Kate Bowler: Okay. Well, then people at least wanna come visit.

Katherine May: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, oh, well good luck with the gecko.

Kate Bowler: Well, he’s, um, my son is in a, in a very World War II- stage, so he had a lot of feelings about tanks and tank names. Mm. But then we went, um, with one of my closest friends, we went on a vacation around Christmas together, and [00:38:00] my best friend introduced him to the Shirley Temple, which he immediately misheard as a Sherman temple.

And, uh, so now his name-

Katherine May: Sorry, just to interject, Shirley, another great name for a cat. Sorry, I just wanna leave that there. Carry on. Shirley. Carry on. That would be good.

Kate Bowler: A little sassy. She’s got a good name. Oh, wait, that’s the

Katherine May: same as Shirley Bassey. No, wait, I’ve said Shirley twice.

Kate Bowler: Then, then, then this- See-

is the future. It must be Shirley … I need a cat

Katherine May: called Shirley. Yeah. This is a message.

Kate Bowler: Shirley’s a really good name.

Katherine May: I have been thinking I need another cat, but yeah.

Kate Bowler: Well, it can be a cousin to my gecko, which is a Sherman Temple.

Katherine May: Sherman Temp- that’s actually a really good gecko name. Mine is named after Tony because it, he was the beginning of an imagined project to name a series of reptiles after the real names of Marvel superheroes.

So we began with Tony Stark. Um, and thankfully we’ve stopped there because he’s not getting any more. No. ‘Cause he doesn’t, he just ignores this- … poor, poor bearded dragon, who hates me incidentally. [00:39:00] Who puffs his beard up whenever I come into the room. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. I think it’s ’cause I gave him a hot shower last year ’cause I was worried he’d got too cold, and I I didn’t know what to do.

His tank had broken down, so I put him in the shower, and he went into brumation for four months after that.

Kate Bowler: Stop.

Katherine May: In great anger.

Kate Bowler: Do you think they’re like, um, when octopus have these long-held grudges? Oh, they’re

Katherine May: amazing, yeah. Octopuses are so, so intelligent. There was a story. Do you compulsively read octopus stories?

I read quite a lot of octopus content. I only saw the one

Kate Bowler: documentary which made everyone sad.

Katherine May: Oh, yeah, that was quite sad. There was a really good story from a UK lab that were keeping octopuses, and this octopus learnt to squirt a jet of water onto the light switch to turn the light off whenever the guy came into the room.

Come [00:40:00] on. Amazing.

Kate Bowler: Come on.

Katherine May: Absolutely amazing.

Kate Bowler: Oh, I do have one crazy nature story that happened not that long ago. I, um, this was a discovery of something octopus-like. I, uh, I, so because I have a deep love of absurdity, I just wanna do something random. Well, when I was going to give a talk somewhere in Florida on Tampa Bay, and I don’t know American geography very well sometimes-

even though I live here. Um, but it turns out that Tampa is on the Side of Florida where it just has this, like, big, gorgeous, um, bay, but that can suck you out into the ocean really fast.

Katherine May: Oh, wow.

Kate Bowler: And, but I had it all out- Like a rip

Katherine May: tide or something. Exactly. Yeah, okay.

Kate Bowler: So it’s not like a tra-la-la-la place to swim.

Um- Okay. So when I got there, I thought, “Well, it’ll be… I have all day. It might be nice to do something nature-y and be outside before I give this talk.” So it turned out that I had an old man mentor who was a professor at the college. So I reached out to him, and I was like, “Do you think [00:41:00] we could just go, could we go kayaking together?

Would that be something we could do?” And he’s like, “Oh, sure. I would love that.” He loves the outdoors. Well, when I got there, it turns out that because we’d have to borrow the school kayaks, we would have to do a swim test-

Katherine May: Oh, no …

Kate Bowler: together.

Katherine May: Surely there’s an age past which you get to just certify your own swimming, surely.

Or so-

Kate Bowler: No, suddenly it’s me and my old man friend, just me in a borrowed- Oh, no … swimsuit, him down to whatever that was, just in a cold- I mean, always

Katherine May: nice to take your clothes off in front of colleagues as well, I find. That- … that’s just, like, one of my favorite things to do.

Kate Bowler: Oh, is this how we share our ideas?

Oh. So we’re just, like, doing these laps in front of unbelievably bored 18-year-olds- Oh … in a cold pool. Turns out he is, like, crushing me ’cause he’s surprisingly fit- Oh, yeah … where I’m just-

Katherine May: That was gonna happen. [00:42:00] Like… So we- You’re like, “I’m only planning to float on top of the water.” “Not to get in it.” It’s

Kate Bowler: not in it.

Not a plan. Not a plan. So, uh, we finally pass our festival of humiliations, and we get our kayaks, and we head out. And then the second we’re out in our little kayaks, they go, “Oh, just so you know, um, the current is really strong, and you actually can’t go very far. You can really only go over there,” and then points, like, 20 feet away and something

Katherine May: boring.

Oh, god. So I’m like, “Well, okay.”

Kate Bowler: So we follow the little shore. The only amazing thing is in the tiny little stretch of water we had, all of a sudden there was a dolphin. Oh, wow. Just so beautiful, and I felt so grateful. And then we’re just, just a couple feet from shore, ’cause that’s all we were allowed to do.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Kate Bowler: And then we’re having a peaceful moment together, and I was like, “You know, this is really beautiful.” And it’s, was nice to hear his stories. And then I looked over the kayak, and all of a sudden it looked… ‘Cause you can see the ground. It was partly about waist- ‘Cause it’s really

Katherine May: clear water, wow.

Kate Bowler: So clear.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kate Bowler: So shallow. [00:43:00] Um, and it was probably, like, waist-deep high. And then it, ’cause the, you know, you could see the bottom is brown, but then all of a sudden it kinda looked like- It was sort of like the bottom of an elevator, and it was going up. What? And that didn’t make any sense to me. We were like, “Am I asleep?

Am I high?” Like, why, why, why does it look like the floor is going up? And then all of a sudden, and I just want you to picture, it was, like, completely peaceful water. All of a sudden, the kayak started pitching wildly- Oh, my goodness … underneath us, and then I had the unbelievable idea like, well, this poor man, even though he passed his swimming test better than I did, I should leap into the water, because it’s only waist high, and just try to stabilize his kayak, ’cause he really looked like he was going over.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kate Bowler: And just as I was about to throw myself in the water, I realized that what was pitching about eight to 10 feet of w- where the water was trying to get out from under my kayak.

Katherine May: Oh,

Kate Bowler: my goodness. What was it? And it turns out it was a [00:44:00] stingray. It was a eight to 10-foot- A huge one … sea flap flap. Wow. And it, what it had done is I had perched myself directly over it, and it- Like a

Katherine May: tabletop, basically.

Kate Bowler: A table Massive. It couldn’t get out. So my g- amazing idea to throw myself into the water- To an absolutely lethal-

Katherine May: Yeah …

Kate Bowler: it has that enormous stinger. So yeah.

Katherine May: Yeah, yeah. You don’t wanna come into contact with that. So

Kate Bowler: yeah, it turns out that- Wow … uh, after a lot of light crying, uh, we both eventually just felt so much closer together and, and realized- Yes

that just nature is just a harbinger of death.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Kate Bowler: And we should probably never go out again.

Katherine May: Yeah. Red in tooth and claw. I mean, this could have flipped around, though, and you could have become the first person ever to ride a stingray. Just, I’m just putting that out there as a suggestion. Would’ve been really good.

Kate Bowler: Frantically, just two, one hand on each.

Katherine May: Holding on to it. That sounds terrifying. Okay, okay. So I think this is a good time to [00:45:00] suggest that it might be time to come home from your retreat. Things have got scary out there. Um, how do you, when you’ve gone away, how do you know when it’s time to come home? Is, is there a clear moment for you that you think, “I’m done?”

Kate Bowler: I guess I always love it when you have that feeling with a friend- Where you poured out all your stories

Katherine May: Mm-hmm …

Kate Bowler: you weren’t, you know, first there’s the catching them up, and then there’s the kinda getting into some, and then there’s just the lovely dredges where you’re like, “Oh, wait, I forgot to tell you about the…”

And that’s And, and you’re like, “Oh, it’s so dumb.”

Katherine May: Oh, wait, here’s a weird thing that happened to me last week.

Kate Bowler: Yeah. And then it gets, it gets less and less important- Yeah … but somehow more and more peaceful. And then ’cause the feeling like you’ve had the privilege of saying, finishing a story, but then saying the sentence after that, I have always been so grateful for that, like, lovely siphoning off feeling.

And then once all that buzz is [00:46:00] gone, and then there’s been a lot of naps, then I think I’m- Mm … I’m

Katherine May: ready. Then you’re ready, you’re ready to go. And is there something that you might bring back home with you, like a little memento of your trip?

Kate Bowler: I love people’s… I’m also just, like, almost not able to go into small businesses because I can’t not leave without something ’cause I feel so proud of them-

for starting small businesses. So I would, I would probably pick, like, the local weird berry jam- Ah … like the Saskatoon berry jam, or something that makes me feel… I always think on a trip, I nurture the delusion that I will be somebody who uses tiny glasses for orange juice or something. I’m like, “This is who I am now.”

So I would wanna get

Katherine May: something. Or that you’re gonna cook with some really arcane local ingredient because you’re, you’re gonna become that nationality now. You’re gonna just, you know, create these perfect dishes with this one weird little spice that will then go gray and dusty on your shelf for the rest of your life.

Kate Bowler: It’s, that’s, I think [00:47:00] having a delusion at the end is a key part of my- Yeah … trip experience. That’s important,

Katherine May: yeah.

Kate Bowler: Yeah. The this- I’d like to come home with a delusion, please …

Katherine May: is who I am now mania. It’s the gift- That’s so good … I’m bringing back to you, my family. Yeah. I’m now deluded. Yeah.

Kate Bowler: Here’s my new accent.

Yeah. Here’s my new… Oh, I’ve tried that. Oh, by the way, I’m

Katherine May: wearing a headscarf now. Sorry. Yeah.

Kate Bowler: I do that. I’m a

Katherine May: peasant. That’s

Kate Bowler: so true. I’m a scarf person. I, one of the, of my favorite people who I work with, she’s, she’s two weeks into trying to be a scarf person. Ah. It’s not working for her. It’s hard, yeah.

By the time this comes out, she’ll find that out.

Katherine May: I can’t do scarves. I just can’t, I can’t get anything to sit still on my body, you know? And I, after 10 minutes I’m, like, tugging at it- Yeah … in a really inelegant way.

Kate Bowler: I think

Katherine May: it’s

Kate Bowler: a shame. That’s good self-knowledge. Yeah. It

Katherine May: is. Less

Kate Bowler: things, please. I,

Katherine May: same, ditto jewelry.

Any jewelry, just can’t.

Kate Bowler: No. I just, and then I’m taking it off. That’s fine.

Katherine May: Yeah. That’s why we have tattoos. It’s jewelry that you can’t pick at.

Kate Bowler: Actually, you know why I have tattoos? I’ve got a couple little [00:48:00] tattoos mostly because my face is so Little House On The Prairie content. I just gotta edge it up in any other way.

Katherine May: You’ve gotta, you’ve gotta be a bit edgy.

Kate Bowler: They look at my face, they’re like, “She’s so wholesome.” I’m

Katherine May: like, um, am I impossible to display on a screen? I have-

Kate Bowler: Oh, they’re

Katherine May: gorgeous … it’s, uh, seaweed. So I’m never far from the sea.

Kate Bowler: Aw, that’s nice.

Katherine May: Hmm. Kate, thank you. It’s been a joy, and I love that we ended by showing each other our tattoos.

Kate Bowler: Every time I see your face, I just wanna hug you. I’m so grateful for you. Thank you, love. One day soon.

Katherine May: One day soon.

Kate Bowler: I’m gonna come visit. I really will.

Katherine May: I’ve reached the point in my walk where I’m turning around and heading back home. Still a bit of crunchy shingle for you to enjoy. It’s one of my favorite noises. I find it very relaxing in itself to hear the sound of crunchy shingle. You [00:49:00] can hear Fraggle as well, crunching away. Oh, Fraggle, this is a steep bit.

Can we get up here? I don’t know. Oh, you’ve gotta do a little run, Fraggle. That’s it. Good girl. Oh. The, uh, stormy winter seas have created a sort of shelf on the beach, and obviously, rather stupidly, that was the bit I decided to climb. Oh, that was more exercise than I’m used to, I’ll tell you that for nothing.

But we’re up. I, uh, hope you’re feeling suitably rested after that conversation. I just found it a real retreat in itself. The idea of being on that lake, mm, delicious. [00:50:00] These high summer dreams we begin to have at this time of year. I do hope, if you enjoyed that, you will check out Kate’s new book, Joyful Anyway.

I expect you already follow her on social media, but just in case you don’t, she is a real treat. She really does bring the life into Instagram. And I get the sense that she’s secretly very organized and very on top of things, which I can only stand back and admire. I do my best to be organized and on top of things, but I don’t always pull it off.

Anyway, oh, I’m still out of breath from climbing all that gravel. Um, I will be back next week with, uh, another episode. But also, don’t forget that our paid subscribers, the [00:51:00] people who support my little independent podcast- That is all my own work and Alistair producer’s work and Megan, the, uh, assistant who books everyone’s work.

Uh, let’s, uh, let’s not deny that I’m, uh, helped by lots of people, but I- we’re not supported by a big podcast company is what I’m saying. Um, those of you who do take out a paid for subscription will be getting a little bonus episode from me as well, um, where I talk about a mini break that we could all take this week, hopefully, um, and explore one of your dream retreats as well.

So do check that out if you’d like to. You’ll see it in your podcast stream. And apart from that, take excellent care of yourself. I’ll see you very soon. Bye.