Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello, it’s Catherine here. I hope you are very well indeed. I’m not feeling so great. I’m talking to you from a seated position today because I’ve contracted a nasty infection and I feel knocked sideways by it. I’m frustrated with my body as usual because I do see my life as a battle between me and my body, and I know I shouldn’t.

But there we have it and sometimes I feel like I’m winning and sometimes I feel like my body wins and it’s a war of attrition. Really. It’s interesting to. Think about [00:01:00] that attitude though in a podcast about rest, because I don’t think I’m alone in feeling that often. Rest has to be forced upon me by my body when I’ve got far too tired, and I know the things in my life that help me to stay continually rested and to cope on a everyday level.

And quite often I don’t do them. I was thinking about this the other day that, you know, I know that breaking my day up in a certain way, not overbooking my diary, meditating every day, yada, yada, yada, yada, all really help. And yet I find it hard to do all the things that keep me feeling okay. And [00:02:00] then my body draws a hard line in the sand and I have to stop.

I am stopped. I’ve said this so often to people, um, when they’re asking about wintering and they say, isn’t it a luxury to be able to winter? I couldn’t possibly do that. And I have so often said to people, well, the problem is that, yeah, current society makes it very hard to choose a stop, but our bodies ignore that and you will be stopped.

It’s not always a choice. And I think that points to the way that we often see ill people that they have, um, you know, somehow chosen to give in, whereas actually they have been stopped and some people just go a long way before they experience that and other people experience it earlier. But yeah, I have been stopped hopefully for [00:03:00] just a few days.

Um, and already the frustration is dying back and making way for acceptance. But also I notice all the things that come back to mind in these more spacious moments, in these moments where I’m not constantly doing, it’s been lovely to concentrate really deeply on a book to think ideas start coming back.

So it’s almost for me, like I’m shown what making space can give me, and particularly if that space that came wasn’t quite so unpleasant and painful,

it would be, it would be really great. But yeah, choice is a, is a huge problem here. And uh, I am. I’m living through that right now. Anyway, I’ll stop rambling and start introducing this week’s podcast guest who is my [00:04:00] dear friend Lisa Altman, author of Poor Man’s Feast and Motherland, and most recently Permission, which is a book about our right to make stories about our lives, even in the face of opposition from others who think we should be quiet and keep certain things private.

It really grapples with the issues that Alyssa’s faced over the years telling the story in particular of her mother, but also her broader family. It was interesting, therefore, to be able to talk to Alyssa about rest ’cause she’s written so often about her own traumatized responses to the life that she’s lived, and it’s probably not a surprise, therefore, that Alyssa.

Really knows where she needs to go in order to feel safe and protected. She’s learn how to retreat from that environment that’s

​[00:05:00]

Katherine May: often felt so overwhelming and menacing for her. And I knew she’d be by the sea. We both sea lovers. So it was lovely to talk about that. But I also really hoped, and I was glad that she did that she would talk about her habit of rereading.

Issa is such a great reread of books. It’s almost like she has a personal liturgy that she returns to not just, you know, once a year, but on a daily basis that sustains her and gives rhythm to her days. And it was lovely for her to talk in more detail about that. But also I think I’m very interested in the ways that we self soothe.

It’s a very important, I dunno, habit, I suppose to have [00:06:00] for neurodivergent people. And I think it’s a skill that we could all learn, not self-soothing in a way that pretends that nothing’s wrong, but self-soothing. That lets us come to a place of calm and rest, even within the chaos. And I think that this interview talks really beautifully about that.

I hope you enjoy it. I’ll see you a little while after we’ve had a nice chat with Alyssa Altman. Alyssa, welcome to The Clearing. Thank you so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure to see you. I know. It’s so lovely. We have to do this to get a chat these days. We’re both wearing stripes. I don’t know. You know, do you know what I, I thought about this before I came on air and I thought, oh, I’m wearing a stripy jumper, and Alyssa will be too.

I better put a cardigan on. No, I, it’s just, it’s like a uniform, you know? Yeah. So it’s fine. Love a stripe. Always feel good in a stripe. It’s always good. Yes. [00:07:00] It’s happy making. It’s lovely to have you here. Thank you. I we’re, we’ll be talking about rest. I feel like you are not in a very restful phase of your life right now.

Is that fair to say? Yeah. Yeah. No, I, it’s, um, I, it feels like everything is happening. Everywhere. All at once. Like, like the title of the movie, um, you know, personal stuff. My, you know, lost my mom at the end of October. There’s medical stuff, there’s political stuff, and we are in the middle of a snow cyclone right now.

Elissa Altman: Um, so we have a, a foot of snow and it’s gonna keep snowing until, um, tonight And because where, where, um, where I am, it’s 11 o’clock in the morning. So, um, yeah. So it’s been, it’s been, um. The car died and Susan and my wife’s not feeling terrific and not, you know, so it’s, and then my back went out the other day, you know, I mean, why would it not, like [00:08:00] why would it not, why don’t, why would it not?

But I still, I still managed to make before Kal last night. So there you go. Never change. Never change. Can’t do it. Can’t do it. Does the, does the snow feel, I mean, I feel like there’s two ways you could interpret this massive snow. Like on one hand it’s another massive inconvenience on the, on the other, there’s something that’s an invitation about that snow, isn’t it?

Katherine May: It’s really keeping you home. I, it makes me snow. Makes me very happy. I mean, I, I grew up, um. I grew up with a, a grandmother, a maternal grandmother who essentially lived in our house. And, um, and she loved snow more than than anything. And if, if she were here and if I were in single digits, she would grab me by the collar and put me in my, in my snow suit and toss me out into the snow to play.

Elissa Altman: Um, but she, she loved it. And, and, um, the funny thing about her and snow is that [00:09:00] when she passed in April of 19 82, 8, this was April, um, I woke up, my phone rang terrible, you know, the, the phone call that you get woke up. Yeah. And looked out. I was living in Boston at the time, and I looked out the window and it was a.

Freak snow storm going on that happened the night that she passed or the morning after she passed. Um, so she loved, you know, she loved it and I find it very comforting, um, and sort of muffling, it quiets everything. Um, everything feels very loud to me right now, um, yeah, in, in more ways than one. But, but in including actually, volume wise, everything feels very loud to me right now.

Katherine May: Lovely. I can actually see the light coming through your window. I can see it staring light. Is that okay? Is that Yeah. Yeah. It’s lovely. I mean, it’s, the side of my head is white, but it’s, it’s that specific [00:10:00] snowy light that’s really recognizable. It’s very clean and kind of fresh and gorgeous. I think it’s, and sort of diffuse.

It’s really nice. Yeah, it’s, it’s lovely. I of course have snow envy obviously. Well just get on a plane. No, I mean I, it’s fine. It’s, yeah, I think there’ll be more of it. So, yeah. It seems like you guys have had a lot this year. We have, yes. So are you the kind of person who finds it easy to get away from it all and take a rest?

Is that something that happens in your life a lot. Um, I feel VI inevitably feel very guilty about it. Um, I, I, I try to do it. Um, and if you can hear screaming right now, that’s pissed. It’s the cat outside of my office door because Susan is not minding him. And so I apologize for, for that. Um, never apologize for the cat.

That’s fine. That’s right, that’s right. That’s right. So, um, I think it’s. Enormously important, and I’m the kind of person who needs a, a lot of [00:11:00] downtime and a lot of rest and rejuvenation. Um, and yet I feel, I often feel really guilty about, um, about taking it. And I have to find ways to sort of convince myself that it’s okay.

Elissa Altman: I need the rest, my body needs the rest, my spirit, my brain, um, on, on, on every level. You know, we’re living through a very noisy time right now. Um, and, and I think rest, certainly for me is more, more important than it’s, than it’s ever been. Yeah, I, I can really see that. I think it’s really interesting. I mean, guilt has come up in so many of these conversations.

Katherine May: It seems to be a real universal, I like, I wonder, I wonder what the actual source of that guilt is. I mean, maybe it’s different for everyone, but where, where does that guilt reside for you? What do you feel guilty about when you left? Ugh, you know, my, I think [00:12:00] a lot of it for me. Comes from having been raised in a home with, uh, people by people who lived through the Great Depression.

Elissa Altman: And my, you know, my father was, um, a flyer in the Second World War and, and, you know, enlisted when he was, um, I think right out of high school. So he was about 18 and got his wings when he was 19. And so that was like 1942, I think. Um, but my, you know, my mother and my grandmother lived through the depression, um, in a, in, in a part of Brooklyn that is now unaffordable.

Um, but then was really sort of once upon a time there were places in New Brooklyn. Yeah. Um, and, and sort of gray and, and, and grim. But my grandmother worked. All the time. And my grandfather worked all the time. And when my mother was starting [00:13:00] to sing professionally, she would go to school, sing professionally in the evenings.

Um, and then when she was out of high school, she would sing and she would model. So she was always, she was always working, always working. And you know, I mean, you are a writer. You, you know this, that when you’re a self-employed person, um, time is, um, uh, resources, you know, and, and, um, wherewithal and all of those things.

Mm-hmm. And, and so I feel guilty about not. Making what I do with that, that restful time. Quantifiable in some way. Yeah. Um, and that’s, and I think that, that’s just my, I think that’s my upbringing. I think that’s just, that’s just the way I, I was raised. Yeah. There’s that feeling when you’re a writer, that you are conscious that other people don’t really think it’s a proper job.

Katherine May: And I, you know, oh, [00:14:00] totally. Yeah. I dunno if I even think it’s a proper job sometimes I think other people that are writing, they’re doing a proper job. But I always kind of feel like, for me, I struggle to believe that I’m actually allowed to do this. And I think being a writer requires quite a lot of downtime and rest, because that’s when you do the thinking, you know?

Elissa Altman: Yeah. You know, it’s when you do the thinking and it’s when you do the reading. And I, I, I’ve found myself, um, talking to some writer friends in, in the last couple of weeks and actually asking from a practical point of view. How do you. Manage reading time. You know, I’ve got, I mean, I’m sitting here in my office, I’ve got books everywhere.

I’m about to put in a new bookcase because I have more books that are, that are like spawning. Um, and I’m, and I’m working on something new and I have to do research. And if I’m doing research, that means that I can’t be doing the other things like teaching, um, and, [00:15:00] and writing for, you know, public other publications.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so my question. To other writers is always, do you squirrel out time for yourself? Do you carve out time for yourself? Yeah. Um, and, and de make that dedicated reading time or, um, note taking time or writing in a journal. Um, my journal time has gone to hell. Um, yeah. Um, and, and I was thinking, well, if I wake up at four 30, um, I know that you are, I know that you are an early riser, but if you, if I wake up at four 30, maybe that will give me extra time, and that is just not happening.

Katherine May: No. Well, also like you have to, like, four 30 has to feel good to you, you know, if you drag yourself out of bed at four 30, feeling terrible. It’s awful. It’s never gonna feel good to me. Yeah, exactly. Like it’s just not productive, is it? No, it’s not. Yeah. [00:16:00] Okay. Well, look, let’s, let’s go into a more relaxing space then.

Sure. Um, I’m gonna invite you into my clearing, uh, which is, which can be anything you want it to be. Um, and you’re gonna dream your, your ideal place to rest and repose, hopefully guilt free. So, so tell me where we find ourselves in this clearing. What kind of landscape are we in? Um, by the sea, um, by, I, I wouldn’t say, um, beach necessarily, because the place that I’m envisioning, um, it, it.

Elissa Altman: It actually does exist. Um, and I, and I’ve been there many, many times and when I, when I close my eyes and I’m, you know, in the MRI tube, anything like that, and I am closing my eyes and trying to imagine, um, being transported somewhere. It is this cottage in, [00:17:00] um, in a village in Maine called Owl’s Head. And we, we happened upon this cottage, um, just, it was just fortuitous and, um, and it’s about 50 feet from the ocean.

Um, and the beach is all stone. So, um, it’s very British beach. It’s all stone. Um, we have sand. You do, you do have sand. I love a stone beach and it’s beautiful. Um, and. One wall, when you walk into this, to this space, one wall is all glass and it faces out, um, oh wow. Onto the ocean. It faces east and you get, um, moonrise and sun, you know, and, and, and, um, and the, the reflection of the sunset in on the, on the water.

And it is very quiet and there’s a very comfortable couch. [00:18:00] And important. Does it have to be in Maine? No, it doesn’t, but it has to be that place. Um, and I, that’s, I’m really interested. Love it. Because I would’ve thought it would have to be Maine. ’cause I know Maine is really special to you. It’s somewhere you return over and over again.

It it is, it is. And you know, there are a lot of places that I, that I love. I mean, I, I, you know, we were just in, um, the UK and June and. We were in a tiny, tiny little town in, um, outside of Perth at one point, and found our way into this beautiful stone cottage. And it was like the cottage in Maine, only outside of Perth.

Right, right. Um, and there were cows and sheep coming up to the windows and, you know, and that, and that kind of thing, which was great. Um, but Maine is very important to me, [00:19:00] and the water is very, very important to me. Um, and hearing that lapping sound, that sort of meditative, lapping sound, um, yeah. Is I find very calming and soothing.

Um, and, and when I, you know, when I think about, um, just sort of unplugging and. And, and reading or writing. And I, and that’s a space that, that I’ve actually worked in from, from time to time. Mm-hmm. Um, that’s the, that’s the place. That is the place. Yeah. Yeah. Are you alone in the cottage or do you bring any, anyone with two or four legs with you?

You know, I think it’s a very different, I think they’re very different experiences. I mean, I have only ever been in that cottage with my wife and our, um, our dog. Although [00:20:00] I think the last time we were there we had lost Pete. Um, so we, we, it was his favorite place too. But I, I think in terms of real retreat, going to a place where I have some time alone, um, is I, I find that.

Sometimes, not always, but sometimes to be very peaceful and, um, meditational and, and I, and I like that. It’s a very fine line for me. Um, I don’t love being alone all the time. Um, yeah, that’s, that’s hard. Um, you know, for many, many years, 17 years, Susan commuted into Manhattan for work, and it was just me and the dogs and the cats in the house, um, from all day, every day alone.

Um, and that, and that was sometime that could sometimes be, be hard to take, but [00:21:00] when I’m, when I’m reading, when I’m writing in a journal or I’m just spending a lot of time thinking, um, I like that. I like that solitude. I like to have that solitude. It’s complicated, isn’t it? Solitude. I mean, I, I crave it, but then when I get it.

Katherine May: I run out of love for it relatively quickly, quicker than I expect, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I, I know that feeling very well. Um, and, and when that happens to me, when I hit that wall, um, I, I will do everything I can to distract myself. Um, yeah. And that can be dangerous, you know? Okay. That, that, that can be not in a, not in a, you know, really dangerous way, but it can be, um, my mind can sometimes be, my brain can sometimes be a frightening place.

Elissa Altman: Um, right. And, and that I think is true for a lot of creatives. Uh, I, I think we we’re all, yeah, we’re all very much like that. So it can [00:22:00] spiral quite quickly. Yes. So, but you are choosing kind of solitude here, which is interesting. Yes. Does that mean that you’ve got a project to do in this space? Does that mean you’ve got an in intention to fill where you’re there?

It, it does. Um. I’m just beginning, um, to work on a new project and I’m in what I call the, my Hunting and Gathering phase. Okay. So, um, I do a lot of reading, I do a lot of notes scribbling that may amount to something or, or nothing. Um, and, but reading is, is key for my, for my hunting gathering phase. And as you know, when you are working, when you’re working on something new, you can go down rabbit holes.

You know, one thing leads to another, leads to another, leads to another. And how does that stop? Does it stop? Should it stop? I don’t know. Um, yeah, [00:23:00] and, and I, I try not to pressure myself. Um, if I have the time, I try not to pressure myself. I just want to absorb as much. Um, wisdom and experience of other people, um, who are, who have written about this thing that I’m writing about, um, or, or who have made movies about it or painted or what, whatever.

Yeah. I want to absorb that experience. So like the Derek Jarman experience of, um, of, of creating this space for himself, um, knowing that he was not going to, um, live to see it flourish, you know, however many years later. Mm-hmm. I, it’s, I, it’s important for me to be able to get my brain into that space, into that mindset.

Yeah. And, and that only I think, works for me, [00:24:00] um, on retreat. That makes loads of sense. I, you have to get obsessed, I think. Mm-hmm. And you have to let it completely overtake you and become like the kind of deep expert in that field instantly, you know? Yes. Yeah, exactly. It’s really, it’s a very distinctive phase of writing.

Katherine May: And, and then there comes a point, I think, when you are full almost, it’s like you’ve had a, a big meal, you know, and you’re like, Nope. I’m done. No, done. No more’s going in now. That’s it. Right, right. That’s, that’s, that’s exact, that’s exactly right. And, you know, and I, I don’t know, um, you know, if this is, if this is something that you do, but, uh, certainly when I’m in my hunting and gathering phase, I’ll do my readings.

Elissa Altman: Um, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll see movies and documentaries and I’ll listen to music that’s connected to it and all of these, and read book, you know, historical, um, um, historical books about, about whatever it is. Um, [00:25:00] and then I’ll go back into them and I’ll, and I’ll scribble notes. Um, and I, I have all sorts of books of notes that if I went on for my previous books and if I went back and read them right now, I would’ve absolutely no idea what the hell I was talking.

Pardon me. But, um, yeah, that would be, it would just be gone. It makes sense. Yeah. I, I never write in books. I don’t know why I keep trying, but it just doesn’t, it doesn’t happen for me. I, I, it always has to go into the notebook, I think. Yeah. But either way, I completely come to ignore it by the time I write the book.

Katherine May: It’s just, it’s like finding, it’s like, oh, it’s like understanding what you are dropping into, I think, sort of understanding a territory and Yes, you don’t, you’re not gonna use it necessarily. It’s just, it’s an appreciation of what’s gone before, what’s already there, I think. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

Elissa Altman: Absolutely. So you are going to need a good desk and chair in this place, I think. Yes, [00:26:00] absolutely. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Um, yeah, and it’s, it’s, uh, it’s funny, I mean, I’m sort of read. Working a lot of things in my office right now, uh, my home office in preparation for the, the hunting and gathering. Um, but many years ago, um, I, and I have to have the right desk.

I mean, if I don’t have the right desk, yeah, all, everything goes to hell. And, um, and I, I become obsessed with finding the right, the right desk and. I searched and searched and searched for years and I couldn’t find one. And then I found one buried in the back of an antique consignment shop in, um, here in Connecticut.

Um, and I can’t imagine not, and it’s a desk I’m speaking to you in from right now. Right. Um, I can’t imagine not having it. I can’t imagine not having found it. Um, but if I could transport this desk [00:27:00] to my, my little, the cottage of my dreams by the seaside in Maine, um, I would, I would be very happy. I would be very happy.

It’s, it’s so important that stuff. There’s like every aspect of the writing experience, it’s, I mean, it’s easy to fetishize it and I get it. Mm-hmm. And you know, if I’m trying to distract myself, I will turn it into a shopping mission. And I do try not to do that. But there is, there is something so. Sensory about having the right things.

Katherine May: You know, that not just the chair that doesn’t give you a bad back, but also the desk whose surface feels right. Mm-hmm. And that that has everything to hand and it’s big enough to kind of hold the. All of the things that you, well though, the stacks of books that just endlessly accumulate mostly from everywhere.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s really important. Yeah, no, I, I, I think it is. And my desk is, um, is very old Irish pine and, uh, and it was, it. Um, used and [00:28:00] loved by someone, uh, else, or many, maybe many people, um, for a very long time. And that makes me very happy. I sort of feel like I’m sitting here working with, you know, good spirits around me and, and for a little while.

Elissa Altman: It’s interesting, um, towards the end of my mom’s life and I was handling all of her paperwork and, um, and it all wound up on my desk and I got, it was like I broke out in hives. I couldn’t, I couldn’t work at my desk when, when that was going on. It felt, it felt, and it’s gonna sound terrible, but it felt invaded.

Um, no, I totally get it. Totally get it. You know, I had, I had to let a smudge stick, you know, the size of a, the size of a tree trunk cleanse. The cleanse the space, right. Every now and then someone will get fed up of me, lose leaving my stuff all over the house, and they’ll put my things on my desk, as you know, which I get the instinct, but it’s horrifying.

Katherine May: Like, unless I [00:29:00] have to put on the desk myself. We, I thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that. Because, you know, when we have hard line never put stuff on my desk. Yeah. When we have people here, I mean, Susan, you know, my, I love her dearly and my best friend and my, you know, um, we’ll just, we’ll just gather stuff up and put stuff here on my desk and I’m like, no, don’t do that.

Elissa Altman: Please. It’s those moments when, you know, you’ve driven the rest of the household crazy and they’ve just been resorted. That’s right. That’s exactly right. Yeah. But also the. Converse rule replies. Never tidy my desk for me. I just, just do not touch the desk. Don’t touch desk is mine. It’s my, no, don’t touch my stuff.

Katherine May: Yeah, absolutely. It’s like eating food off my plate. Yeah. Don’t touch it. I don’t like that either. Just leave my domains alone. I have few domains in this world and like I’m a Yeah. Setting my right to the I hear you. I’m [00:30:00] with you a hundred percent. So we, I mean, nobody’s gonna touch your desk. You can have whatever desk you like.

No one’s gonna touch it. Yeah. Are there other things you’re gonna do there? I mean, you are a great cook. Do you cook when you’re away or does that feel a bit too much like everyday life? No, I love cooking when I’m away. Um, I love, I love cooking when I’m away. Um, I love shopping for food in local markets when I’m away.

Elissa Altman: I find that really, um, really interesting. Um, it’s an interesting sort of cultural experience. It’s very different from place to place. Um, yeah. You know, the French cultural experience shopping in a French market is very different than it is here in the States because you’re not allowed to touch anything.

You know, you’re not allowed to pick up a tomato and go, oh, this, you know, they, they get very angry when, when you do that. Um, but I, I love cooking. [00:31:00] Um, I love cooking in. Places where I’m staying, um, whether it’s Maine or in this tiny little town in Perth, outside of Perth. Um, and, and that it just, it just makes me, it makes me very happy if I’m by myself.

Um, I will cook a lot of bad things, um, because it doesn’t really count when you’re by. Your, doesn’t really count when you’re by yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Food eating alone is, uh, is neutral always. Yes. Yeah. It’s like airport, you know, airport food. Um, and I would also, I would have to, I would absolutely have to have a guitar with me.

Absolutely. Yes. Okay. So, so this is the item you’d bring with you, presumably from home. Yeah. Yes. You’re gonna bring your guitar. Yes. Yes, that’s right. Tell me about how long have you been playing, um, and how often do you play now? Uh, well, I am 62 and I’ve been playing since I was four, so that’s 58. God help me, 58.[00:32:00]

Years that just makes many years. My head wanna pop right off my shoulders as I say that. Um, and I go through long spas of not playing. Um, and sometimes it’s time, and sometimes it’s, um, my, my mindset at any time. At any time. So if I’m not in a good place, I will Right. Um, I will neglect the things that are important to me and that make mm-hmm.

That inevitably will make me feel better. Like. Walking, exercise, you know, go, going out, getting outside, even in this kind of snowstorm and playing the guitar. Why are we like this? Why are we like this? Why do we abandon the things that we know are good for us? I don’t know when we’re having the worst time, but it is a thing.

It really, it really is. It’s a thing. Yeah, it is. It is a thing. And, um, you know, and I finally, this past, [00:33:00] um, summer, I got. Back to a place of wanting to play every day. Mm-hmm. Um, just wanting to play every day. I don’t have to play with people. I love playing with other people, but I don’t have to play with other people.

Yeah. And because for me, it can be a very private and meditative experience when, when I, when I do that, um. I was just about to get back into it and I had a really bad shoulder injury and yes. Yeah, that, that prevented me from hanging my arm over the front of my guitar. So it’s my right, my dominant side.

So I haven’t been able to really play, um, for very long. And of course now I want to. I want to play. Yes. So, yeah, of course. Yeah. Um, so it’s like God’s little joke on me. Um, but I, but I’ve been playing a really long time and, and I have five guitars, so what ha I would have to choose the right guitar [00:34:00] and a lot that there’s a lot of sturman drawing around choosing the right guitar.

Um, right, of course. Of course. Yeah. Always. Like, I, you know, and I wonder, will the other ones feel badly if I leave them behind? Yeah. Well they probably do. They’re probably really furious with you. Yeah. Probably having conversations without my knowing. Without my knowing about it. Right. Yeah. That’s it.

Katherine May: You’re in trouble with the guitars. Yeah. Do you, but do you actually travel with them normally or, you know, is this a fantasy scenario or when you go away, do you bring your guitar? When I go to Maine, yes I do. Mm-hmm. Um, I did not bring, um, a guitar with me to the uk. Um. Although once when I was there for a very long period of time, I actually went out and bought a guitar while I was there.

Elissa Altman: Oh, wow. And, you know, with the, not with the understanding that I was probably not gonna be able to get it home. Um, but I, I don’t want to, um, necessarily risk flying, uh, with a guitar because certain [00:35:00] airlines notoriously eat musical instruments. Um, I won’t name them, but they know, they know who they are and musicians also know who they are.

But, um, but when I’m in Maine, I always have a guitar with me and it may go untouched or it may not. Um, but just the fact that it’s there, uh, I find it very grounding and comforting. That’s lovely. And is there a time of day that you like to play the most? Is it a morning or an evening thing or is it just more freeform than that?

Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, I. I used to play primarily in the early evening. Um, when I used to come home from work, when I was working outside of the house. Um, when I lived in, in New York, I would come home, take my coat off and sit down and play, um, often until, you know, eight o’clock, nine o’clock at night and then realize that I [00:36:00] hadn’t eaten anything.

Um, right. But, but now it, it depends. If it’s the weekend, um, if it’s the weekend, I will often play in the early part of the, the day, um, after I’ve had my coffee, after I’ve had my breakfast, um, and during the week I tend to play in the early evenings, and it can, and it can go on, you know, anywhere. It can be as short as 15 minutes and as long as three hours, um, right.

Katherine May: Wow. Yeah. And it, and it, um, you know, it’s been an enormous comfort to me, uh, over the, over the years and, and if I don’t do it. I feel like something else is going on if I don’t, if I’m not playing. Yeah. So, yeah. That’s lovely. So we have like very relaxed, happy Alyssa here. You know, you are cooking, you are playing your guitar, you’re doing some reading, maybe a little light writing, but no pressure.

Mm-hmm. [00:37:00] Tell me the answer to the question that we always ask. What item of culture would you like to hand to kind of stimulate you in all of this? I mean, gorgeous drifty, kind of creative endeavor. Yeah. Is there something that you would love, love there to inspire you? Um, it’s actually sitting right here and I don’t know if that’s, um, okay, great.

Elissa Altman: No, I mean it’s sitting on, it’s sitting on my desk, so, um, so I. I have this, um, Mary Oliver collection that, um, that I keep by the bedside, um, by on my, on my nightstand. And I try and read, um, a poem every morning, uh, before I get out of bed. Oh, wow. Rather than look at the news and doom scroll and do, do all of, do all of that.

But, um, so definitely that [00:38:00] book. Uh, there are some other books that I love that connect me to, um, the place of storytelling, the importance of storytelling in my, in my life, and, um, how storytelling can be just so simple and. And yet so evocative and grounding, and I don’t know if, yeah, this is, this is true for you, but I, I have certain books that I read and reread and reread.

Um, well, I know you do because you are, you are an extraordinary reread, aren’t you? I almost, I am. Yeah. When I hear you talking about reading, and I don’t think I’m quite like this. I do reread things, but I’m often, maybe that’s part of my guilt. I’m often like, no, I’ve got all this other stuff that I haven’t read yet and mm-hmm.

Katherine May: Need to keep up. And I never feel like I’ve like done enough reading, you know? Yeah. Um. But it, I always see you as almost having a palette that you are dipping from in your [00:39:00] reading. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it is, it’s interesting. I mean, uh, I’ve often spoken about, um, a book by Wallace Stegner called Crossing to Safety that I discovered, um, when I was working for his publisher.

Elissa Altman: I was working for a Viking, um, a thousand years ago. And, um, I had just gone through a really difficult breakup, um, and was living in, um, my long deceased grandmother’s apartment in Brooklyn. And I had, I had like an hour and a half on the subway every day. And someone I was, I worked with sort of. Kind of got a sense of what was going on in my life and handed me a copy of this book and just said, you know, I think you will really like this book.

I think you will. And I read it. I wanna say, I’m gonna sound completely crazy, but I read it four times in one month. Um Oh [00:40:00] wow. At that point. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I found that I missed the characters when the book was, when I had finished the book. Is it, is it a novel? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of it. It’s a novel.

Um, and it is one of the greatest examples I think, of how, um, storytelling can be so deeply affecting. When in, in the right hands, the way it can be so deeply, deeply affecting, um, without magic tricks, without jumping through hoops, without sleigh of hand, without narrative, sleigh of hand. Um, it’s just a simple story of two couples, you know, and, and their friendship over the course of, I wanna say something like 50 years.

And. And it’s written with great immediacy and enormous compassion, um, for even the most difficult people in the, in the, in the book. Um, and again, you know, I find [00:41:00] it, I find it to be very grounding. Um, it feels like a narrative security blanket for me. Um, so I, I, um, so I would say that I’ve also loved, um, Olivia Lang’s gardening book.

Um, oh, yes. Yeah. What is it? A Garden Against Time. Garden Against Time. I’ve loved that. Yeah. Um, Derek Jarman’s, um, of course. Yeah. Book. Yeah. Which I only, you know, the journal, which I, uh, I only just bought mm-hmm. In, um. In the UK when I was there, I was, when, when we did the Derek Jarman book club on, uh, my Substack in December, I was really surprised how little known he was in America.

Katherine May: Yeah. I’d assumed that he loomed large, you know, in, in particularly in queer culture, in the way that he does. Yeah. In the uk. I mean, he’s, he’s always been an icon. Yeah. As long as I can. Yeah. And I, I think, um, you know, readers who are, um, definitely connected [00:42:00] to the movie and documentary community and certainly the gardening community as well.

Elissa Altman: And the queer community. And the queer community. Yeah. Um, and uh, and that’s another book that I find, um, almost like a security blanket. The idea of, um, of creating something that’s going to exist and, you know, long after you are around to see it. Those kinds of books are really impor really important to me.

Katherine May: I wonder, like, do you almost have them memorized? Like how familiar are you with them this reading and rereading as you’re reading them? Are you like, oh yeah, I know this, but you know. Yeah, I know. Crossing to safety, um, pretty much inside out and upside down and, and I, I’ve gotten, um, I’ve, I’ve gotten to think of it in terms of, I’ve gotten to think of the narrative in terms of rhythm, um, right.

Elissa Altman: And [00:43:00] almost like music and almost like, almost like music and I, and I think a lot about, um, the written word and narrative in a rhythmic sense. And so, yeah. When I read it, I mean, I know what’s gonna happen. I know what the, you know, what the characters are gonna do and what the characters are gonna say, and yet I am still, um, there’s not, um, a, a time that I’ve read it where I have not come away with something that I didn’t have previously.

Um, and, and that’s, it just uncovers another layer every time. It’s, it’s like peeling an onion, you know? And yeah. And, uh, and I find that really gratifying and a huge gift, um, of, of the authors, um, to, to me and to whoever have to, whoever read. And I, you know, I know plenty of people who just, who have read it and have been like me.

Yeah. But you know, it’s whatever. [00:44:00] Yeah. You know, um, and I, and for a lot of reasons, and I, and I, under, and I, I understand what they, you know, what they, what they are. So. It’s a, yeah, it’s interesting. So you have this like little stack of, well, well summed well loved books with crinkly pages from how many times you turn them over.

Right, right. Um, but I do, I do always associate you with Mary Oliver. I have to say, I dunno, I dunno if it’s ’cause you love similar landscapes or just, I I know that you, you know, that you love her very dearly, but I think, um, it feels like Mary Oliver has been having more of a moment than ever over the last couple of years.

Yeah, I think you’re right. And I, I, I am. I’m not sure that it’s international. I think it probably is. I, well, no, I, I think in truth that we didn’t really know much about her in the UK until a few years ago. Mm-hmm. So I think it probably, I think a lot of it is like British people going, oh, Mary Oliver, [00:45:00] this is Exci.

Katherine May: Like, we didn’t Yeah. She wasn’t such a deal here. Yeah, no. You know, I, I, um, I’ve spent a lot of time in Provincetown, um, yeah. At the very tip of Cape Cod, where there’s a huge, um, an old established literary community. Um, and, and, um. Artistic community, you know, lots of painters. Stanley C the poet, um, had a beautiful garden there.

Elissa Altman: Um, and of, of course the queer community has been there since, you know, I wanna say like the beginning of time. Um, and really, um, there were fossils. Yeah. And, and certainly during the AIDS crisis, you know, when, when, right, when people were not welcome, um, in many places, um, that community grew and grew and grew out there.

And Mary Oliver, of course, lived there for, yeah, a very long time. And her long time, [00:46:00] uh, partner, um, um, owned a bookstore, um, owned, I wanna say East End, east End book, what’s now East End Books. Um. And I, you know, I know a lot of poets who lived there and or who’ve lived there recently, and they all talk about walking on the beach and running into Mary Oliver, like, you know, scribbling in her little, or, you know, early in the morning.

And, and I used to think, you know, is this, is this sort of like liturgical in some way as Mary Oliver liturgical in some way? Because I, I’m not, you know, I, I don’t, I’m, as we say in this country, um, unaffiliated. Um, and I, I love the Quakers and I love the Unitarians and I’ve spent time with both communities and, um, and.

A, um, a minister friend of mine, uh, who’s a Unitarian minister, uh, said to me that, um, she thought that there would be [00:47:00] no Unitarian liturgy had there not been Mary Oliver. Um, because they sort of swiped, they sort of swiped, so, yeah. Yes. Ex exactly. But yeah, you know, I, I spend a lot of time thinking, you know, we’re all really big on religion in my country for better or worse, and a lot of times worse.

Um, and I, I struggle with that. Um, and. When I go away, when I’m, when I’m near the ocean, when I’m near the water, when I’m in a quiet place, um, that in itself becomes, um, something of a practice for me. Um, right. And, and certainly reading Mary Oliver, um, becomes a practice for me. I, I don’t wanna fetishize her.

Um. She is quite fetishized now. I think there is. She really, really is. And I don’t know, I mean, I [00:48:00] saw her, I don’t think she’d have liked that very much. She probably would not have. I mean, she was, no, she was extremely, um, private and, and, um, of course Krista did one of, uh, Krista Tippa did one of the only, um, long form interviews, uh, with her in when she, after she moved to Florida, which didn’t, in which shockingly, she’s smoking for a living.

You can hear her puffing, you can hear her puffing away, you can hear her puffing. And, and she had had lung cancer and the woman is puffing a cigarette. You know, it’s crazy. Mary, Mary what Doing, don’t do it, but don’t, don’t do it. But she, you know, she was in her eighties and she was like, what? You know, what am I gonna do?

You know, if you can’t do it when you’re in your eighties, when can you, honestly, but I, I just, I find her work, um, very, again, very grounding and liturgical and. Immensely important to me. So, yeah. I’m really curious also that you love this, this very private writer who, [00:49:00] you know, writes from life, but often in very glancing ways.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. Or, or kind of finds the universal so much. Your writing has been intensely personal and your most recent book is about finding the permission to produce that really personal work. Yeah. What I, I, is there a relationship between that? Are you turning to someone who kind of isn’t doing what you’re doing?

Or do you find that one of, do you find her one of those sources of permission? I do find her to be a source of permission. And, you know, I, I think that part of the reason, and I certainly couldn’t begin to speak for her in any way, but, um, I think that part of the reason why. She wrote poetry. Um, and, and, um, and why she rarely gave interviews and rarely made public appearances was because [00:50:00] she had had enormously complicated young life.

Elissa Altman: Um, yeah, there was all manner of abuse and all sorts of things that she talks about, um, to Krista. And, um, and so there are certain things that, um, that obviously meant that came to mean in an enormous amount to her. Um, whether it was, um, you know, the natural world, um, dogs. She loved dogs. Um, loved dogs.

Yeah. And, and her dog poetry is just brilliant and I mean, really brilliant and mm-hmm. Um. And if you read her work over and over the way, I tend to, um, you can start seeing and feeling, um, definite connections to this difficult personal life that she Yeah. That she lived and that words [00:51:00] saved her. Y you know, I don’t know if I can, that I give myself permission, um, be because of what I’ve read of hers, but I definitely, um, connect with the idea of, um, narrative as saving grace.

Yeah. Um, and, and the importance of, of that and the importance of it. And that that weaving of like the spiritual and the. Human and the literary, that kind of Yeah. Yeah. I get that. And yeah, and you know what I, I find that to be, um, narrative creating, you know, writing whether, whatever your one is writing, um, feels like a parachute to me.

It’s been a parachute for me. And if you were in my office right now, which I’m glad you’re not, ’cause it’s a complete bomb site. Um, I have a, [00:52:00] a box of my old. Journals, um, sitting behind me and they, they go back to 1976, um, when I was 13. And, you know, you can see my like, sort of big stupid loopy handwriting and like the, you know, the dotting of the i’s with little hearts kind of Oh wow.

Katherine May: Hearts that must have taken a while. Yes. Yeah. Um, and you know, heavy magic marker felt tip pin kind of, you know, kind of thing. Right. Um, and, and that’s the, those are the things that gave me permission to, to tell the, to tell the stories and, and realizing also is that, you know, the fact that, um, we in, in difficult situations often feel alone, but we are not alone.

Elissa Altman: Mm-hmm. And, and it’s important, it’s really important for people to remember that as hard as it is to remember that when you’re in the thick of it. So, yeah. Well. [00:53:00] Alyssa, it’s probably time for you to, to come home from your, your lovely beachside retreats. No, no. Um, but is there, like, how do you know when it’s time to leave for you?

Katherine May: Is there a point when you are ready to go home or do you wanna stay there forever? Um, I could easily stay in, in the cottage in owl’s head. Um. Forever. And at, at one time, and I know that this is imaginary, but at one time, um, I know that the owner, ’cause we, we rent it, uh, we have rented it. Um, the owners were, uh, hoping to sell it and I was like, Hmm, hmm.

Elissa Altman: You know, and there are all sorts of environmental issues with living in owning a home that’s right on the ocean. And what does that Yeah. What does that mean? And, and, uh, there’ve been, um, cottages on that street that were swept out to, swept out to see Right. Um, right. A couple of years ago. So, you know, so I, I, I know that and, but I, when [00:54:00] I’m away, um, and I, and I have done, uh, solitary retreats, um, in that area and, uh, in Rockport actually.

Um Mm. Um, which we, where I’ve, yeah. We were there together. Um, um, I, I know it’s time to go home because. I might, I get very distracted and I start to get a little squirrely and I, you know, I, I think about what’s happening here and in my home and my family and, um, and then it’s time. Then it’s time to go, you know, then it’s, then it’s time to, to go.

I’m close again. Yeah. Yeah. You can’t stay away forever. And then I’m in a terrible mood when I get here, but, oh, no, no, no. I’m really not. But, but I never wanna come home. I’m always, I’m always very reluctant, returner. Although I, yeah, you’re right. I do, you do begin to think about things cool that, you know, you can’t put life away forever.

Katherine May: Right. [00:55:00] But, right. Oh, I’d like it to happen. Really. I know. I know. And is there something that you would like to bring back home from your retreat? A memento, an idea and a notion. You know, I. I think that the reason, um, the ocean is so, um, important to me and appealing to me, and I know that this is, this has been said, uh, to death, um, is, you know, is the idea of impermanence.

Elissa Altman: You know, uh, the, the ocean go, the, the tide goes out, it comes back, it goes out, it comes back. Nothing stays, um, nothing stays. And, and if something is a certain way, um, good or bad, it’s going to change at, at some

point. And it’s very easy to forget that, you know, we, we live inside of our, um, inside of our daily [00:56:00] routines and our daily rituals.

Um. And they can become, they can become rote. You know, you do the same thing over and over again every day. You know, Susan just told me the other day that we, she makes pour over coffee in the morning and it’s like her meditation and she said that she, actually, it’s 39. Rotations around the filter. And I thought, are you kidding me?

You’re counting the number of rota. But she, that’s, that’s amazing that it’s the same every day as well. It’s, it’s the, it is, it’s the same every day. And so when I’m in a difficult situation and when I, when life is, um, you know, a rug that’s being pulled out from under me, um, and there’s a whole lot of, um, angst and instability, you know, uh, and I think like having lost my mom, very complicated situation with a whole lot of complicated feelings.

Um, [00:57:00] a lot of paperwork and people pulling at me and picking at me and wanting this and wanting that. And, and I have to remember, um, that it’s not forever and that nothing is forever. The tides are gonna go out. The tides are gonna come back. Um, and that, that’s profoundly important to me. What a lovely thing to bring home.

Katherine May: Alyssa, thank you so much. It’s been gorgeous to talk to you. Thank you so much. Lovely to see you. Welcome back. I just take such a deep breath after listening to these interviews every time. And I also feel like that after conducting the interviews, it’s, it’s really funny because in previous iterations of my podcast, I’ve often felt quite tired at the end and quite kind of drained and like it’s been this big intellectual endeavor to kind of hold everything together, to have this, you know, [00:58:00] quite acrobatic knowledge of everybody’s books or work and to be holding a conversation about that.

But these conversations are really restful in themselves for me, and I can see that they’re often really restful for the person that I’m talking to as well. I get the sense, although I’m not sure if I could prove it in a scientific sense, that thinking in detail about restful things is in itself, a rest is probably not enough of arrest, but making that time to roam mentally through those landscapes is just so, so, so useful and such a practice that we might all undertake more regularly.

I would say, and I hope that the process of making this podcast has really [00:59:00] encouraged everyone listening to think about, you know, their own modes of rest and their own dream rests. Dreaming is always okay to do. I think that might be the message of this podcast. And in fact, we are getting very close to the end of our first season.

We’re gonna take a little break after the next episode so that we can all rewind, rethink, reimagine again, and we’ll be coming back later in the spring, early summer, that kind of time of year. And we’ll be back with a bit of an increased offer for subscribers, for paid subscribers. At the moment. You can subscribe to the podcast by.

Joining my Substack. Um, you’ll also be able to subscribe through Patreon too. If you don’t want to join the Substack, you can do that already, but, um, probably not the time right now. And we’ll, we’ll be asking people to share their Dream retreats, listeners, to [01:00:00] share their dream retreats with us. Um, I’m really looking forward to doing that.

But in the meantime, if you have enjoyed this season, do look forward to the next episode. But also please do leave us a, like, a comment, a review, or pass it on. ’cause it really, really helps us to share the word. I am going to return to my very comfy sofa now and watch a movie, um, which luckily as a writer I can count as productive time.

’cause it’s all narrative, right? It’s quite good. It’s, it’s all work. Um. I have to remind myself carefully that it is okay not to work and to probably watch Bridget Jones instead of something improving. Uh, but you guys take care. Until next time, and I’ll see you really soon. Bye.