Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello from the very warm and sunny, very springy woods near my house, which um, feels like a kind of surprise. It feels like spring has come upon us very suddenly now. Oh, there is sunlight filtering through the trees, which are still bare, but something is definitely stirring. I’ve taken the dog out because is a little anxious at the moment and I think it’s ’cause the foxes are up to their foxy business in all the streets and, uh, she knows they’re there and doesn’t really like it very much.

So I’m trying to soothe the dog today. We’ll see if it works. [00:01:00] But it is so lovely to feel that freedom of movement you get at the end of winter. It’s like the air feels less thick. Mind you, I am wading through mud. So, but what would these introductions be without me squelching through mud, honestly. Oh, I hope you’re all okay.

The heavy times have got heavier, haven’t they? It is, uh, it’s horrific to see more war breaking out, more civilians under attack, more young men being sent off to war. I just very much struggle to get my head around it. Well good. A school party have just arrived at the woods. That’s great news for us, isn’t it?[00:02:00]

Shall we walk in the opposite direction? Rele? ’cause they’re quite noisy. What about if we went this way? Come on. Anyway, I didn’t wanna ignore it, but I know also that this podcast is about making space to think about other things for a little while in the acknowledgement that so many of you listening are doing real and practical things out in the world to make things better.

I think we’re supposed to assume that everybody needs jolly along to do their bit. I don’t really think that about my listeners and my readers. I know you’re all really deeply engaged in all kinds of different things. Doing your best out there. And I still want this to be a place [00:03:00] of repose, but not forgetting.

It’s not the same thing. Actually the guest we’ve got today, it’s a really fabulous example of someone who does not shrink from tackling the ills of the world straight on head on. Ooh, Fraggle. You’re right. She just tried to balance on one of those bits of plastic tubing that they put around the bottom of young trees and then leave in the woods as litter.

And, uh, it was not as solid as she expected it to be. And it was quite funny. You’re all right, girl, aren’t you? Come on, go this way. That’s it. My guest is Jen Hatmaker, writer, broadcaster. And. A truly interesting figure in the [00:04:00] world of evangelical Christianity in America where she has over time and then perhaps quite abruptly, moved into a much more liberal, all-encompassing picture of faith.

And that was triggered as she documents in her book awake, which is so worth a read, even if this doesn’t feel like your wheelhouse. Um, when her husband was caught red handed having an affair and she had to rethink an awful lot of the foundations of her life. I think she’s fabulous, honestly. And I loved the sense in our [00:05:00] conversation that Jen has already thought pretty hard about how to take the rest she needs given the stuff she puts up with online every day.

But also, I really loved the vision in it of how when she retreats and she does this already, she’s always making new friends, making deep connections, taking care of other people. I think it’s really joyful. Anyway, I will commend you this episode. I hope you enjoy it too, and I’ll see you when you’re done.

Jen, welcome to The Clearing. It is so lovely to have you here.

Jen Hatmaker: Same delighted. Thank you so much for having me.

Katherine May: We first chatted a couple of years ago on your lovely podcast, didn’t we? I, that seems like a long time ago Now that’s, [00:06:00] everything’s moving so fast.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh boy. That was like 10,000 years ago. Two years ago.

Was 10,000 years ago. Yeah. So that is why it feels that way.

Katherine May: I dunno if I can keep up. Um, I am so glad to have you here because you are such an interesting voice out there. Like, I, I watch your content all the time on Instagram. You have, you have a lovely calming presence. Um Mm thank you. I know having, uh, read awake as well that you have been through a really very disruptive and difficult few years.

Um, and that’s why I wanted to talk to you about rest today and how you process all of that. I’m really interested to know.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh, I love that. Love that question. And you’ve caught me just in the right moment for it because, ooh, I sort of, uh, I, I ran the gauntlet of book [00:07:00] tour, which you understand. It’s exciting, it’s wonderful.

I’m actually not complaining.

Katherine May: It’s big thing.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah. I’m not complaining. That is the dream every writer has, is that they write books and somebody wants to read them. That is absolutely. So it’s not a massive, it’s massive honor. And, and as is a book tour to travel around and people will give up a night to come listen to you talk about your book is a crazy, crazy development in any given writer’s life.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, but it is. Exhausting it, it is like a sprint that turns into a marathon at that pace. Mm. And so,

Katherine May: yeah,

Jen Hatmaker: I know that this is not my first book tour. And so

Katherine May: not your first rodeo.

Jen Hatmaker: It’s not. And so I prepared myself emotionally for that level of, of motion of stimulation. I’m actually an introvert by nature.

I’m very much a homebody. I very much, um, [00:08:00] identify with so much of your work. Mm-hmm. Um, that it, that’s, I feel like my natural homeostasis.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, wants to be in that in a gentler, slower, quieter space.

Katherine May: Yeah. Pace. Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, and so I prepared. For a, an, an onslaught of a also attention. It’s, it’s exhausting just to have that much attention.

It

Katherine May: just being that scene is really hard actually. Yes. I think. Yeah,

Jen Hatmaker: exactly. So that came out last September, which means you, you have found me in my fallow season.

Katherine May: Oh,

Jen Hatmaker: how nice. Isn’t it? I, I said okay. I, I told everybody I will, I will work so hard and I will, I will do it all. I’ll fulfill everything that we have promised, and I will do it with gladness and gratitude, and then when I get to the end, I’m going low.

I am going, and I’ve been that way now for. A, a couple of months.

Katherine May: Um, well, I, uh, it’s beautiful. I think that’s, that’s really necessary. Mm-hmm. I mean, it [00:09:00] takes some recovery, doesn’t it? And I think probably something that you and I both have in common as well is that we elicit quite an emotional response from our readers, and we often, or they often find us at moments of huge personal transition.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah.

Katherine May: And so those conversations are not the kind of polite, like, uh, how do you get your inspiration literary festival kind of fodder. That’s

Jen Hatmaker: right.

Katherine May: They’re like, my whole life’s falling apart. What do I do next? And it, it, you know, it’s a, it’s such a, I mean, it’s such an honor to be asked that, and you really wanna step up and offer something, but you come out at the end of those interactions feeling really like big work has been done.

Jen Hatmaker: Certainly, certainly. And, and it, it takes, um, a really intentional approach. Uh. To knowingly go into a season of life where you know [00:10:00] you are going to attract heavy and hard conversations. Heavy and hard stories of other people. ’cause anytime you hold up a story, like a Wake or anything like it, where it’s your personal story of loss and grief and upheaval and, um, recovery.

It’s like holding up a magnet. And so you, you know, it’s gonna attract similar stories, um, which is both an honor and it can be a burden. Yeah. And so you have to go in gently. Uh, I worked with a therapist before a weight came out so that I could, um, learn and be prepared to hold everyone’s stories with a lot of tenderness.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: But not put them in my backpack and carry them every day.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um,

Katherine May: really important.

Jen Hatmaker: Yes.

Katherine May: And I, I wonder ’cause you, you have a background of kind of ministry in a, in a huge church [00:11:00] congregation. Did that prepare you for the book world or is it different? Is is, are they similar, are they similar skillsets?

Jen Hatmaker: Hmm. I think I have probably drawn on my experiences from every iteration of my life to prepare me to, um, manage the one I have right now with care and the church world is not an exception. Yeah. Um, which is being in some form of leadership.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, how, you know, however you wanna, sort of define it. And, um, a a, a sense of spiritual authority.

Um, in which I have always, I’ve always known and I’ve always taken great care with the truth of the fact that [00:12:00] people are listening to what I say. Therefore, I don’t have the luxury or the privilege to be careless with my words. They matter. Yeah. They matter. And if I am throwing them against the wall, which I’ve done plenty of times, plenty of times, particularly in the younger versions of myself, um, without a lot of thought and intention and like emotional regulation and, um, that is disruptive not just for me, but for other people.

Yeah. And so I do, I do think church taught me. To, to, I don’t know if guard my words is a little bit dramatic, but certainly to be very thoughtful and careful with them, knowing that words matter.

Katherine May: Well, I mean, it would be nice if everyone thought that hard about it, and I, but I think for you as well, you attract a certain amount of disapproval as well, and controversy [00:13:00] because of the changes you’ve made.

Jen Hatmaker: Yes.

Katherine May: I, I’m always really curious about how you manage, you know, having such a public face and knowing that there are people who profoundly disapprove of you and who will attack you. How’s, what’s that like?

Jen Hatmaker: Mm.

Katherine May: I hope that’s a compassionate question and not, not a ghoulish one.

Jen Hatmaker: No, no, no. I’m glad you asked it.

And if you would’ve asked me that question, let’s say 13, 14, 15 years ago, I would have a different answer. Um, that was back when I. Um, hadn’t yet developed capacity for that level of criticism for that, uh, for a, a huge portion of people to just not like me. Not not not appreciate what I say or do what I believe.

Katherine May: Yeah. And not, not care to hear about it really. Let’s [00:14:00] face it.

Jen Hatmaker: No. And not just not care, but like, act actively oppose me and make sure that everybody in their world knows that as well. That used to be one of the most disruptive forces in my life, and it was such a burden to carry. And I, I, I don’t know if you do Enneagram at all, but I’m an Enneagram three, which means I am disproportionately wired for people’s approval.

Katherine May: Right.

Jen Hatmaker: And I care about it more than the average bear. And I don’t love this about me and my, that’s my shadow side. My shadow side can get pulled around by the nose. Mm-hmm. Um, based on how I think anyone is thinking about me.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: I obviously have had to overcome that. That is, if that was still my North star, I would’ve had to quit my work.

Um, and so now in [00:15:00] 2026, I am stunned at my capacity to hold disapproval in a different chamber where amazing. I I just don’t wear it anymore. And to be honest with you, I, I think I can link it. You know, I, I got divorced in 2020, you know, that’s what Awake is about. And, um. All the buckets of my life were overturned, and I was kind of forced to examine my own stuff, like my own junk, my own patterns, my own contribution, like my own bad habits.

And chief among them, chief among them was codependency.

Katherine May: Right?

Jen Hatmaker: And that was not something I really had any understanding of before and had to excavate in a really painful and honest way in my own life. But when I, when I, I, I was exam, sorry, this is such a long answer. When I examine that, I was [00:16:00] examining that in the context of a marriage.

Like what kind of codependent wife was I that really contributed to the demise of our marriage. But once you learn to recognize codependency, I went, oh God. I have that everywhere. I have that with my kids here.

Katherine May: I can

Jen Hatmaker: see

Katherine May: it.

Jen Hatmaker: Absolutely. Here I see my patterns and it’s not confined to that one relationship.

And I realized I had a, a lot of codependency baked into my relationship with my community, my online community, um, or just online period. So even the ones that a hundred percent would not identify as being in my community. And so I think when I learned to like, take my hands off the steering wheel of everybody else’s car

Katherine May: mm-hmm.

Jen Hatmaker: And go, I just have the one I’m driving. That’s literally it. That’s my car. That’s my, the only one I’m in charge of.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, I am not driving yours or yours. And you can drive s however I want. I noticed it loosened my, um, [00:17:00] my, the correlation between what people were saying about me online and how I felt about myself.

I was able to go, that’s your car. Drive it.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: You can drive it in the gen hat maker hate lane. And that is your choice. And

Katherine May: it would be really nice if there wasn’t a gen hat maker hate lane, though. Let’s face it.

Jen Hatmaker: I wish there wasn’t, but there is. And so I’m like, okay, that’s fine. That actually doesn’t affect my life.

Like that doesn’t, and I’m not in charge of that. And I’m not in charge of optics and I’m not in charge of convincing you otherwise. And I don’t need to defend myself. And that’s, I’m not even on that highway. I’m not even over there. I’m over here on a completely different road. And so, um, when I tell you that, that sort of criticism does not lodge in my heart anymore, I really am telling you the truth.

It doesn’t.

Katherine May: You need to write a book about that one next to teach us all how, how not to be affected by it. Because I, I do think that one of the things, I was talking about this with some of my girlfriends the other day, all of all of them writers. And [00:18:00] we were saying that actually our kind of, I don’t know, our time online has taught us that we are supposed to.

Expect abuse essentially, and that we are supposed to kind of smile through it and pretend it isn’t painful. But that’s actually terrible training in many ways as well, isn’t it? It’s deeply toxic because

Jen Hatmaker: my gosh,

Katherine May: I think women in particular are told to just keep on pushing through people being not just critical, like critical’s fine, I’m fine with critical.

It’s the viciousness of Yeah, some of it. And the idea that you are supposed to not be impacted. It’s so, it’s such an awful environment in which to make creative work and to

Jen Hatmaker: genuinely

Katherine May: have inspiration.

Jen Hatmaker: Genuinely, I, I have a lot of [00:19:00] young writers who find their way into my orbit.

Katherine May: Mm.

Jen Hatmaker: Which I love. Yeah.

Because when I started out as a young writer, I had no, I didn’t have any mentors. I was, I was knocking on every door I could find, will somebody tell me three true sentences about this industry? Like, I didn’t know what I was doing.

Katherine May: I don’t think anyone could agree on three true sentences about this industry.

Jen Hatmaker: Honestly. That’s a great point. That is a great point. That is in the eye of the holder. Um, but I didn’t, I didn’t have anybody going. Let me kind of tell you what I know or what I’ve learned or sort

Katherine May: of, yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: And so when young writers come to me, I’m incredibly generous with my, um, advice and my counsel. Um, but, you know, I do tell them this is, this is an old advice trope and I, but it, it remains for a reason because I do tell them, please listen to us.

Don’t go searching out every review of you. Of your work.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, don’t [00:20:00] Google yourself, my God. Like, don’t hate yourself.

Katherine May: Never Google yourself

Jen Hatmaker: mean this will find you. Don’t worry. They will find a way to get to you. Yeah. Like, that’s right. Don’t go searching it out and because the here is the truth. ’cause it’s, I’m a find, I find myself an interesting test case because in the same way that a certain portion of people for whom I used to be a member of their sort of subculture and now I’m not.

And so they take great umbrage with that. Right. Don’t like me, I have a different community of readers and loyalists that over love me, if that makes sense. Right, right. They love me too much and they, they inflate how great I am and how funny I am. And the truth is. If I’m gonna believe one, then I’m gonna have to believe the other.

And both of them are too far [00:21:00] on the, I am not that bad and I am not that good.

Katherine May: I feel exactly the same. I always think don’t read reviews at all, whether they’re good or bad. That’s, you know, like a lot of people say, I know you don’t read reviews, but this one’s great. Read it. Yeah. You know, because

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right.

Katherine May: I don’t need to take in that either. I just, I just need to go forward and make the work. That’s, that’s the only bit of it that any, that’s any of my business.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh my God. It’s just so true. I, I remember, um, talking one time to Brene Brown.

Katherine May: Mm.

Jen Hatmaker: And it was after one of her books had

Katherine May: like, I love that come to Brene.

Jen Hatmaker: I know, right. Casual. One of it was after one, the, a huge success of one of her books, which they’re all successful, but Yeah. Yeah. One had really Spike could

Katherine May: be 81. Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah. And I was, um, I was approaching a new project and I remember her just saying. Listen, we’re not out here trying to be one hit wonders.

We are not, we are not dancing around for everyone’s approval. We are not hit machines. [00:22:00] Yeah. She was like, our only, um, loyalty, our only responsibility is to the work. That’s it. Mm-hmm. That’s it. Like every single project deserves your highest and best investment. Yeah. That you leave nothing on the table for it.

You’re not holding anything back and you’re not, um, catering to or pandering to toward some sort of success metric.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: You’re doing the best and the highest work that year with what you know, and I’m like, that’s right. That’s it. That’s our,

Katherine May: that’s all there is actually. It’s simple. That’s, there is, that’s probably the advice, you know,

Jen Hatmaker: it

Katherine May: is you just focus on doing the best work you can.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah.

Katherine May: Well. All of this sounds a lot. So I’m gonna invite you now into my lovely clearing to imagine how, how you’d get away from it all. Tell me,

Jen Hatmaker: I love this.

Katherine May: Where do you picture yourself? I love [00:23:00]

Jen Hatmaker: when you think about, you’re so good

Katherine May: this, you’re so good

Jen Hatmaker: at this.

Katherine May: Well, we’ll see.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, you’re so good at this. You know, I’ve said this before because this is a real easy answer for me.

Okay. And it’s real clear and consistent for me as well. Mm-hmm. And I tend to notice that, um,

this may not be like a standard place where people go gently into in their imagination, but it is for me. Okay. And so when I think about rest, when I think about an environment in which every single aspect of it is going to like lower. My temperature and like calm my central nervous system and just offer me a gentle space to be every time in my imagination.

It’s mountains.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, and it’s indoors. Like most [00:24:00] people are picture themselves outdoors when they do this practice. Yeah, it does.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not everyone

Jen Hatmaker: though,

Katherine May: interestingly Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Not, yes, I see a cabin. I see absolutely. Full windows full everywhere. Mm-hmm. Floor to ceiling overlooking the mountains, snow, um, fireplace, low lighting.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Cozy blanket.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Jen Hatmaker: It’s so, it’s so clear in my mind, um, that I go there sometimes just in my brain to calm myself down and to think about quietness. And so, uh, the mountains have always been precious to me. And

Katherine May: did you grow up around mountains? Are mountains like a, a personal landscape?

Jen Hatmaker: Yes. I didn’t grow up in them.

’cause LOLI grew up in Kansas. Um, but every single year of my whole life we went to the mountains. My grandparents had a cabin, um, right up by Pikes Peak in Colorado, and [00:25:00] we took a family ski trip every single year of my entire life. Um, and so the amount, and we didn’t have a lot of money. We were really like probably lower middle class.

Right. Which is not something I understood at the time. That’s what everybody around us was too. So that was,

Katherine May: it’s only, you could only ever look back on your social class. Yeah. I’m not sure you could ever, although obviously being British, I’m obsessed with it, so, you know. Of course.

Jen Hatmaker: Totally. Totally. Um, that’s the only place we ever went.

Like, we didn’t take vacations. We didn’t have that kind of like. Yeah. Money for that kind of stuff. So we went to my grandparents’ cabin and we went on a ski trip that was paid for because of my dad’s job. Right. And so the only like getaway place I ever had, my entire childhood was the mountain where the mountains, and it’s, every good memory I have is it’s my family, it’s my siblings, it’s my grandparents.

It’s vacation. It’s, mm. It’s, we’re [00:26:00] pulling off the grid for a while. And so that’s where I go and it just does a number on me, like right away.

Katherine May: Yeah. I get it.

Jen Hatmaker: Where do you go?

Katherine May: Oh, in my head? Or in real life?

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah. In your head.

Katherine May: In my head.

Jen Hatmaker: In your head.

Katherine May: Definitely by the sea. Definitely by the sea.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah.

Katherine May: As wind swept as possible.

Like I just love crashing waves on rock. I just, I mean, when I go to sleep at night, I play that sound and I, I love feeling kind of blasted through with the wind.

Jen Hatmaker: I love

Katherine May: that. So, yeah, that’s, it’s not, I mean, it is not particularly serene, but it’s, it’s that feeling of being almost overtaken with the power of something and kind of losing yourself for a while and quietening that voice, which I think is also what mountains do you know?

Mm-hmm. This is gonna sound like a really stupid thing to say, but I’m gonna say it anyway. When you see a [00:27:00] picture of a mountain, it looks very beautiful when you are near a mountain. The scale of it is

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah.

Katherine May: Kind of powerful. All encompassing.

Jen Hatmaker: Yes.

Katherine May: It’s.

Jen Hatmaker: Yes, it is. And when I, the first time we ever took, my oldest son, he’s 27 now, but the first time we ever took him through the mountains, he was four.

And we’re driving like, you know, just the canyons are just carved out. We’re in the Rockies. So they’re like so, so big. And, you know, this is his first experience. And when we get back from that trip and he goes back to school, one of his little papers from kindergarten comes home in which he’s dictated something to his teacher.

And he is essentially saying, I was so scared the whole time that all those volcanoes were gonna erupt on us. Oh, he don’t have that. And it’s so true. They’re so majestic and powerful and even scary. Yeah. Yeah. But something about that I, I, I identify with what you’re saying in that it’s [00:28:00] comforting to me to feel small.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Next to something so powerful and majestic, it’s a comfort to me. It, it helps me go, okay, I am a little part of this huge world and this whole ecosystem and there’s enormous powerful things happening all around me that have nothing to do with me. I’m not the center of the universe.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, and something about that quiets any sense of like self-importance or doom?

I love to like, slip into doom, um, and catastrophizing. It’s not to be found right now

Katherine May: isn’t

Jen Hatmaker: that It’s a lot of doom. Yeah. I mean, we’re not crazy to feel it. Um, right. But it is comforting to realize there are more powerful forces in the world, places in the world, and that, um, are, we’re not actually the [00:29:00] solution.

To everything that’s going wrong. We’re just one little piece of it. Small, small, small, that Right. Sizes my sense of ownership and responsibility and um, and helps me move out of like paralysis sometimes.

Katherine May: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I wrote about this in Enchantment, but I, when I was a child, I used to be afraid to look at the night sky ’cause it made me feel so small.

Jen Hatmaker: Hmm.

Katherine May: And now I’m an adult. I’m delighted by it because it makes me feel so small.

Jen Hatmaker: Exactly.

Katherine May: Like I, you know, exactly. Particularly at this point in my life, I sometimes feel like the pivot around which everything revolves, you know, my family and in the outside world. And I watch the news and my thought is like, what can I do?

Like why am I not doing enough? Why haven’t I solved this global situation? That’s right. That’s

Jen Hatmaker: right.

Katherine May: Which, as I say, it sounds absolutely ridiculous, but I, I know. I know from my [00:30:00] readers that they so often tell me exactly the same, you know, the same feeling. And it is such a relief to understand yourself in the context, not just of the planet, but of the, the wider universe like we are.

That’s

Jen Hatmaker: right.

Katherine May: So tiny and we are doing our best, but we are not, we cannot expect to be effective against a, against the whole world. That’s

Jen Hatmaker: right.

Katherine May: It’s too much.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right. It is too much. And it always was too much. And it’s kind of insane that we ever slipped into thinking that our place in the story was any bigger than it is.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, but it is helpful to go, what’s my, what’s my role here? What’s the best I can do today? And that’s not always the same answer day to day. And it’s tiny. What’s the best I can do today? Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, it’s almost always tiny.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, yeah. And I just think that’s how. The [00:31:00] collective, um, force of so many small micro movements and moments that we all enact in our life, they, they conspire together into something so much greater than the some other parts.

And so it’s helpful for all of us to remember, you, me, everybody listening, we’re like a little.in the, we’re a little.in the whole matrix. So we just manage that one dot, just manage that one. Dot

Katherine May: just gonna, just gonna sort out the.today.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right.

Katherine May: So we head up to the mountains to feel, just feel deliciously small.

Yeah. I’m really curious about this cabin, because you are in it rather than outside of it.

Jen Hatmaker: Yes.

Katherine May: How much does it differ from your grandparents’ original cabin? Have you modernized, have you done some work?

Jen Hatmaker: I have, I have, I am no longer in the A-frame cabin with the red shag carpet.

Katherine May: Ooh, that sounds lovely.

Jen Hatmaker: Yes. [00:32:00] Yes. And the like a mustard yellow appliances. It’s exactly what you think outta the seventies.

Katherine May: What went wrong when our grandparents chose carpets? Like what happened in their heads?

Jen Hatmaker: What happened? What happened? It was a real moment They were all having,

Katherine May: it was carpets were interesting in the

Jen Hatmaker: seventies.

Oh boy. Yes, I have modernized. I think the cabin that I see in my brain is an amalgamation. Of several that I have been to. Yeah. Because that is straight where I run when I, yeah. I have now indoctrinated my own children in the mountains and, um, bus that is a place that we love. And so I’ve sort of put it together.

It’s, it’s modernized, but it is really quiet and it’s up a bit. I’m not down at the base. Mm. I’m up on the mountain somewhere. I’m high enough to look down, look up, look out, um, right in the

Katherine May: middle of the action,

Jen Hatmaker: in the middle. Um, yeah. Where, I don’t know, [00:33:00] it just feels gentle there in my heart.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Jen Hatmaker: Really.

And it feels really quiet and everything feels really slow and nothing feels urgent. Yeah. Um, I spend a lot of my time in life and in work. Things feel urgent all the time. Yes. It’s

just,

Katherine May: yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: And it is, you know this, you’re the center spoke of your family wheel too. Like, oh, I have five kids and they, I

Katherine May: was gonna say, I’ve only got one kid though.

And that’s plenty.

Jen Hatmaker: It doesn’t matter

Katherine May: for me, honestly.

Jen Hatmaker: Something’s always going sideways. Something is always going. So their stuff is always urgent. Mom. I mean, I had my first text this morning at seven 15. Mom, mom, mom, what? What are those apples that we like? This is a child who lives in his own apartment.

I’m like, that did not require three moms. Um

Katherine May: Oh, but it did.

Jen Hatmaker: It sure did. He couldn’t remember honey Chris, until I told him

Katherine May: it’s important. I hope he’s made a note of it, honestly. [00:34:00]

Jen Hatmaker: Honestly. So, and then work is always urgent. Everything’s a deadline and it’s calendar and it’s. So I crave non urgency. Like, I cannot tell you, I just crave it so much where the day only has one or zero things that have to get done on it.

And so’s I think that’s why I go to the mountains in my mind, where maybe I don’t have wifi. You know,

Katherine May: I, yeah, I,

Jen Hatmaker: I love that idea.

Katherine May: So are you alone here in your fantasy world, or, you know, is solitude important to you?

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah. That’s so funny. I am,

Katherine May: mm,

Jen Hatmaker: I am alone. And I had never really thought of that. I’m always by myself.

Um, which I’m, I told you earlier, I’m introverted by nature. I really love alone time. [00:35:00] I really love it. I really love silence. I, I really crave stillness, and it’s probably for obvious reasons. I came from a big family. I’m the oldest of four. I created a big family. I have a big life and I love it. I love my big life.

I have a lot of people in it, and I have a lot of moving parts, and I, I did that on purpose. Um, but the other side of me just craves a respite from that level of noise and activity and needs, um, questions, words, like, I just want to lower the volume on absolutely everything, including like how many bodies in the room with me, which is none.

Katherine May: I hear you

Jen Hatmaker: Uhhuh.

Katherine May: Do you ever actually get that in real life? Do you, do you ever get any time alone?

Jen Hatmaker: I do. I wrote about this in a wake, but, [00:36:00] um, when my life sort of dismantled, and I won’t give the backstory for this ’cause it doesn’t matter, but, um, that I’m here,

Katherine May: the whole story is fine.

Jen Hatmaker: Well, I’ll, I’ll do it in shorthand

Katherine May: I think.

I think the storytelling is lovely though, so feel free.

Jen Hatmaker: The very next summer, so it had been exactly one year, and I was married for 26 years and so I didn’t have any concept of aloneness. I got married when I was 19. I had never spent a single adult minute independently. Wow. And so that was a foreign concept for me, to be honest.

But that very next summer, my youngest kid was going to summer camp for one month, the month of July in May.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Jen Hatmaker: That is its own thing. But I,

Katherine May: that’s, that’s, sorry. I mean, in the UK we do not understand the scale of America. But that’s far from where you live, isn’t it? Maine?

Jen Hatmaker: It’s as far as a state could be from me.

Yeah. In the United States. Yeah. It’s the farthest [00:37:00] possible place I could go and still be in this country that is at Hawaii or Alaska. I’d never been to Maine. Never. Yeah. But my, my child who was gonna be there for the month of July was fragile, which is why she was going to summer camp for a month. I was fragile.

We had just been broken that year, and so I just, in a blaze of glory, said, okay, listen, how about if I go also to Maine for the month of July? That way, if you need me for any reason, I’m two hours away. So all you have to do is. SOS and in two hours I can be there. Uh, that was, this was just like an insane thing.

I said on the spot was zero foresight at all. No. Hadn’t even thought of it. And I just, in a blaze of glory, booked some random house in Bar Harbor, Maine. I’d never been to Maine in my life.

Katherine May: Wow.

Jen Hatmaker: And I spent the [00:38:00] entire month of July in Maine by myself.

Katherine May: That sounds lovely to me.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh my gosh. It changed my life.

It changed my life. Um, I didn’t mean for it to become anything. I was really just trying to be by my kid. Mm-hmm. Um, but I branded it me camp. Um, ’cause I’m like, well my kid is at camp. Yeah. Like getting restored and renewed and healed. And I guess I am at camp, I am at knee camp. Yeah. And it became so, because it’s

Katherine May: a learning process as well, isn’t it?

Learning, learning to be alone, it’s not an instant.

Jen Hatmaker: All of that. And I, it was the beginning of the uptick in my recovery story. It became so meaningful to me that I have now done me camp every single July for five straight summers. Love it. So I pick a location. It’s very remote. It’s north. ’cause I’m not about to be hot.

I already live in Texas. Yeah. Um, it’s north where it’s cool the whole time. Mm-hmm. I buy any kind of water. I don’t care if it’s an ocean or a river or a lake. Um, but I’m gonna [00:39:00] be by some water and I’m mostly gonna travel solo. And so I’ve done it for five straight summers and I hope it’ll never end.

Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s my favorite thing in my whole life.

Katherine May: I was actually curious because I, your image of the, of your mountain cabin, it seemed quite cold. Um, and you’ve just said that again, that you’re, you’re going away from the sun.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right.

Katherine May: What’s that relationship about? Because you live in an incredibly hot place, right?

Jen Hatmaker: I do. I just feel like I have done a terrible job of being self-aware and located my entire life in Texas where it’s as hot as the surface of the sun. Our summer is eight months long. Um,

Katherine May: yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: I love, I love winter. I love it. I love winter. I love cozy.

Katherine May: I know that feeling.

Jen Hatmaker: I know you do. I, I love cold, I love snow.

I just said this yesterday on [00:40:00] socials, just yesterday. Mm-hmm. I made a list of 10 random things, and number two was I actually love the winter when it gets dark earlier. And I think I’m the only one.

Katherine May: Yeah. And yeah. Well, you’re not, ’cause you have a sister over here.

Jen Hatmaker: I sure do. I really, really should have cited you as my sister, um, across the pond.

But

Katherine May: early

Jen Hatmaker: dark

Katherine May: solidarity,

Jen Hatmaker: there’s, yes. I, it’s something about a cozy environment to me is so nurturing. It’s just so nurturing when it’s cold outside, but warm inside and. It’s dark and there’s candles and it’s low light and low energy. And I just dunno. That is my jam. And so it’s lovely. I crave it. I create it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I leave my own home for the hottest month of the summer so I can go find it. Um,

Katherine May: that’s really important

Jen Hatmaker: and it [00:41:00] restores me truly.

Katherine May: I love that perspective and I am, but I’m so interested about how we crave contrast when we rest. Like it’s so often that we, that rest is true. The opposite of, of everyday life.

You know, part of that is true. No bills are coming through the door. Yeah. There’s no work. But also we get to sample that other facet. Tell me what you’re getting up to while you’re here. Are you just snuggling under the blanket? Are you, are you someone who craves stillness as well as solitude? Or are you.

You know, ever, ever venturing out at all.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s great. I love that. I so often just leave myself right there on that cozy couch, looking out the window with my blanket. That’s fine.

Katherine May: If I, you can stay there. There’s no

Jen Hatmaker: judgment. Nope. If I had to par, if I had to parse it out forward a little bit, like what would it look like over the course of an afternoon or an evening?

Um, there is absolutely a [00:42:00] pile of books next to me.

Katherine May: Yep. Yep.

Jen Hatmaker: Non-negotiable. A pile. A pile of them. And then I, I see. Coffee in the morning and tea in the afternoon, and a glass of beautiful dark red wine at night. I, something about a drink in my hand is very comforting. Um,

Katherine May: yeah, I think that’s right. Yeah. So just something like, it’s something,

Jen Hatmaker: it’s frighten,

Katherine May: isn’t it?

Jen Hatmaker: It’s a prop in something about that is also cozy to me.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, it’s, it’s like I’m giving myself a little treat of whatever the hour calls for.

Katherine May: Yep.

Jen Hatmaker: And I the

Katherine May: appropriate treat for the hour.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right. That’s right. I’m not gonna have the wine at 8:00 AM

Katherine May: Yep.

Jen Hatmaker: But, um, I will have that, not for breakfast, beautiful coffee, but I really, really love to cook.

I really do. That is, um, the kitchen for me is a reset at the end of my day and I look forward to it. And I love food and I love making food. I love the creative act of it. And [00:43:00] so, uh, for me, in my cabin by myself, I’m cooking. I’m cooking for myself and. Mm. Um, and maybe I might add this caveat, because I did this last year at Meat Camp, uh, less this last July.

I was in the most, the tiniest town that has ever existed called Ya’s, Oregon, right on the coast.

Katherine May: Definitely.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, right on the, so small, I didn’t even have a gas station.

Katherine May: Wow.

Jen Hatmaker: But I was up the hill overlooking the Pacific Ocean, full windows heaven. This the most stunning. Um, and I was in the process of doing some pre-test kitchen work for my next cookbook, which I’m writing this right now.

Katherine May: Ooh.

Jen Hatmaker: And I, so I texted my Airbnb host who didn’t live in the town, but I just said. Is there any way, are you comfortable giving me a, the info of any neighbors that you have that may be willing to just take some food? I’m like, I cannot [00:44:00] eat it all and I cannot put it in the trash. I can’t do it my, my sensibilities.

Yeah. Yeah. I cannot put all this food in the trash. I

Katherine May: hate

Jen Hatmaker: food gave me,

Katherine May: I cannot waste food.

Jen Hatmaker: I cannot do it. I will eat six day old food that is a, in the size of a thimble ’cause I just cannot throw it away. Yeah. So I got my neighbor’s information who was just down the hill from me and he is in his seventies.

Katherine May: I bet He was thrilled.

Jen Hatmaker: And I just, I knocked on their door and I went, this is unusual. I know it, but I’m your neighbor for a solid month and I am normal and I am cooking, and I’m cooking more food than one person can po Is there any way. A couple of times every other day or so, I can just bring some food down.

I’ll just bring in containers. You eat it, I’ll come back and get the containers. That’s just it. I just cannot bear to put it down the disposal. Um, to this day, that is my friend, that was my best friend at me camp. He texted me yesterday, [00:45:00] um, he has since lost his wife since July and oh, bless

Katherine May: him. Oh, that’s

Jen Hatmaker: awful.

Bless him. And so that’s my friend. And um, and then Don would give me notes on all my recipes, which was the cutest thing you’ve ever seen, just the cutest you’ve ever seen. Have you thought of cilantro? I’m like, great idea, Don. Thanks, Don.

Katherine May: Useful.

Jen Hatmaker: Thanks, Dawn. So in my vision now, I might bring food to my neighbor and I hope they’re elderly.

I, I hope they’re my parents’ age. Um, but that also, I love it. It’s just enough people and I’m getting to feed somebody, which makes me feel good. And. Then I just go back to my cozy, my cozy house for round number two.

Katherine May: This feels so you, because you’re still making those connections with people even when you’re retreating.

And that’s part of the, it’s almost like you’d be missing something if you couldn’t do that.

Jen Hatmaker: A hundred percent. I have friends to this day, [00:46:00] friends, friends from every me camp, all five of them so far. Um, because part of my posture in traveling alone, which is so precious, which means I’m gonna get a ton of time to myself.

Yeah. But, but I also. Posture myself, I call them Yes. Trips, meaning I am just gonna have this position of yes. Whatever comes to me. Like so a noon, a neighbor’s like, do you wanna come to dinner? Yes. Um, if I go to the up the street and I eat at the bar, I will absolutely make friends with whoever is around me.

Right? Do you wanna come out Jen, on our boat tomorrow? Yes.

Katherine May: Whereas, whereas my default is like, no, absolutely not. No, no, no.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s normally my default. That is nor, but MEC camp is a different, is me campus is a difference, Jen.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: And so I love, love it. And MEC camp, I am a yes. Uh, which has turned into some of the most marvelous memories I could ever describe.

And [00:47:00] friends that are still friends.

Katherine May: So it’s almost like, it’s like shaking the snow globe, isn’t it? You’re kind of randomizing everything when you do this. That’s right. You, you’re not in control of who your neighbors are gonna be in those places. It not the same as choosing where you live.

Jen Hatmaker: Totally.

Katherine May: But you are just, it’s like you’re sampling.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh, it’s so fun. It’s so good for me. It’s so good for me. It’s so good for my heart. It is so good for my creativity, which you understand. Mm-hmm. Because the link

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Between the state of our soul mm-hmm. And the possibility of beautiful creativity is absolutely inextricable.

Katherine May: Gotta do some work to get it there.

Yeah. Yeah,

Jen Hatmaker: yeah. Yeah. That’s right. I mean, really, most of us in today’s modern world, that is not gonna come naturally. Yeah. We’re gonna have to manufacture it, um Yeah. And prioritize it, which means some stuff’s not gonna get done. And

Katherine May: ways

Jen Hatmaker: that’s part of the cost of That’s the price of admission.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, which is setting aside some of the standard expectations sometimes that are [00:48:00] never gonna slow down.

No one’s gonna ask less of us.

Katherine May: Absolutely

Jen Hatmaker: ever.

Katherine May: Absolutely.

Jen Hatmaker: We’re in charge of the, of the gatekeeping of our energy and of our time, and of our boundaries, and of our yeses and of our nos. Absolutely. No one else will ever say, I feel like this might be a little too much for you. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll ask and take as much as we’ll give them.

So that’s up to us.

Katherine May: I think it’s a really interesting part of learning to set your own boundaries though, and I’ve, I’ve noticed everyone kind of sets a lot of boundaries first, but then to truly have useful boundaries, you have to make them a bit more permeable again, like you have to, you have to first of all figure out what you want to definitely keep out, but then you have to remember what you want to let in as well.

And, and that’s so

Jen Hatmaker: good.

Katherine May: A huge part of the process. I think

Jen Hatmaker: so. Good. It’s so true. Like a, a yes is just as important as a no.

Katherine May: Yeah. Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: And they both have to be used so judiciously and with such [00:49:00] wisdom and care. Mm. And, and they change. I appreciate you saying that because maybe the sort of structure in which I lived, um, comfortably or appropriately five years ago isn’t the same as today.

I mean, five years ago I had two kids in high school still.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: So that, that’s a different iteration of me than I have right now. And so I think it’s really important that we keep revisiting those boundaries and go and asking ourselves, is this still appropriate? Does this still feel good? Does this still feel right?

Um, is there an adjustment to be made now? And our bodies usually know my internal

Katherine May: Yeah. We know,

Jen Hatmaker: like alarm system is usually already going off when I have outpaced a boundary.

Katherine May: So true. So. This makes me think, ’cause I always ask if, if our guests want to bring [00:50:00] something from home that’s maybe comforting or reassuring or maybe practical.

I wonder if that’s gonna be a kitchen item for you, but perhaps I’m wrong. Oh, I love that. That

Jen Hatmaker: I really love that. Um, okay. I, I hope this doesn’t throw off the vibe because

Katherine May: it’ll be fine.

Jen Hatmaker: Okay. There’s gonna be a couple of things. So I do have, I do have a cast iron pan that I’m unable to live without, so I’m sorry.

I will load down my suitcase with my cast iron pan. It wouldn’t

Katherine May: work for backpacking, but it’s fine for this.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s exactly right. Um, so there’s gonna be some, i i, the kitchen’s gotta be well stocked for sure. That’s just carte blanche in my brain. My brain has given me a beautiful kitchen in my cabin.

Katherine May: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, of

Jen Hatmaker: course. Um. But I would also, I would also really wanna bring my laptop because [00:51:00] outside of the, the pressure of, um, work or deadlines or expectations or, um,

Katherine May: yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Writing like

Katherine May: schedules and things like that.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah, yeah. Schedule writing for me is mm-hmm. So cathartic. It is so cathartic.

Mm-hmm. I look forward to it. I, I look, the writing is just how I make sense of my whole world. It’s how I make sense of anything.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, and I, I, it’s so weird. I mean, I’m 51 years old. I’ve been writing for 20 years plus, and still, still, when I sit down sometimes to the blank page and I like put my fingers on the laptop.

I like have a surge of thrill. Like just a thrill, like what’s gonna happen? Like what am I gonna discover? What am I gonna find out about what I [00:52:00] think or what I want or what feels true to me? Or, um, what am I gonna remember that I get to then like, recreate and write through? I love being a writer. Yeah.

And so if everything else in my work world had to follow, if I got to pick one. Sliver of my pie chart of which at this point I have a lot. It would be writing a hundred times out of a hundred. Yeah. Um, and so I would want my laptop there and I’d be really, I get it excited to see what came out of that like cozy cabin.

Like, who

Katherine May: knows

Jen Hatmaker: what, what was I There could be anything able to do there. Yeah, exactly.

Katherine May: It’s so interesting ’cause I, I go away for a few days and then I want to write always. Um,

Jen Hatmaker: yeah.

Katherine May: But it’s often, and I’m curious to know if you relate to this, it’s often like a holiday romance in that it’s often like a, an idea that’s different to what I’d normally think of or that’s a new project.

Yeah. And [00:53:00] sometimes that endures when I come home, but sometimes I actually leave it there and, and it just was like a, a glorious little kind of bubble of, of creativity that doesn’t have to exist anywhere else. Love. I, I wonder, love that. Would you be love that working on something new or just continuing your, your projects?

Jen Hatmaker: That’s a great question. Um, I know last year I enjoyed my writing. Project so much because it was food based. And so,

Katherine May: yeah,

Jen Hatmaker: I, I, I mean this sincerely, the stakes were low. I, I had, I was coming up on the release of a wake, which was a heavy lift. It was a heavy lift to write.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Big time. And then I knew I’m, I’m about to put this in the world and it is gonna be a, a big boulder to hold over my head for a few months.

Mm-hmm. Um, hard questions, hard interviews. A lot of attention. Yeah. A lot of act. And so last year I was [00:54:00] writing the earliest portions of a new cookbook, which is. Completely energy escapism.

Katherine May: I should think you

Jen Hatmaker: com Absolute escapism. It is in absurd that that is a job that somebody pays me to do, to go into the kitchen.

The windows are open, uh, overlooking. I can hear the Pacific Ocean just crashing. It’s my entire view. The music is on, a glass of wine is poured. I am chopping whatever I just got at the farmer’s market. This is bliss. Bliss for me. Absolute bliss. Yeah. And then I get to sit down and write about it, which for me, when I write about food, it’s kind of funny.

Yeah. And so I got to use a different muscle.

Katherine May: Really nice. Just, it’s just switching to a different mode. Yeah. Really. It’s really important. Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Loved it. Just absolutely

Katherine May: loved it. That I love. Mm-hmm. And I, I also always ask if guests would like to bring like a, some kind of a cultural artifacts. You, you’ve already told me that you’re bringing a pile of books.

What’s in that pile? [00:55:00]

Jen Hatmaker: Mm. I am absolutely a loyalist for novels. It’s interesting ’cause I write nonfiction. Yeah. Nonfiction is my genre. Um, but you read fiction, reading fiction,

Katherine May: right.

Jen Hatmaker: And I, or my other favorite. I love a well done memoir. Love it. I love it. I want to eat it with a fork and knife. Like it is one thing to have a, an incredible story.

And then when you are also a beautiful writer mm-hmm. And those two things come together, they’re, it’s magic. It’s absolutely a beautifully written memoir.

Katherine May: Agreed.

Jen Hatmaker: Will sustain me for a year

Katherine May: more than a novel because then I get the thrill of like, and it really happened.

Jen Hatmaker: Yes. And it’s done so beautifully that it almost reads like fiction.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: You know, like, ’cause they’re just such a master at the craft.

Katherine May: Have you got a [00:56:00] favorite, have you got a favorite memoir or a, you know, a recent one you’ve

Jen Hatmaker: left? Yeah. Oh my gosh, I have so many. One of my favorite memoirs that I’ve ever read. God, she’s heard me say this so many times and she’s probably at this point, like, that’s enough.

Um,

Katherine May: that’ll do Jen.

Jen Hatmaker: Is the Middle Place by Kelly Corrigan. I don’t know if you’ve ever read Kelly’s work.

Katherine May: Never read it. No.

Jen Hatmaker: She’s the reason books exist. Um, she, she wrote a memoir called The Middle Place, and for a lot of reasons, the time that I read it, my connection to various pieces of her story, you know, sometimes a book just finds you at the exact right year.

Just really speaks

Katherine May: to Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, one of my favorite, I just was, I’ve probably read it 10 times, they’re not memoirs, but I, I, I’ll never get over the genius and the very bizarre brilliance and like uniquely singular talent of David Sedaris ever.

Katherine May: Oh, [00:57:00] I have, I’ll

Jen Hatmaker: never get over it.

Katherine May: I’ve just been indulging in an extended re-listen to every, to the whole Sedaris.

Oh, have

Jen Hatmaker: you really?

Katherine May: He’s so good.

Jen Hatmaker: He’s so

Katherine May: good.

Jen Hatmaker: I love him. Good. There’s no one like him. He lives on his own island. Like

Katherine May: he literally,

Jen Hatmaker: people try to emulate him, but nobody can

Katherine May: No, no,

Jen Hatmaker: no, no, no. There is

Katherine May: only his voices so unique, but also I, I love the way he owns his extreme grumpiness. I so respect that. I so respect it.

I love it.

Jen Hatmaker: I love him so much. Love. I just love everything about that little weirdo. I he is just such a special, special force in this world. Yeah. Um, I really love his work. Um, my, my long time favorite mentor from afar who has shockingly become an actual mentor and friend is Ann Lamott. Oh, wonder She has Wonderful.

Has meant so much to me as a writer.

Katherine May: Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Um, and then as far as novels go, I, I am, I, my, my front door is wide. Um, say [00:58:00] you’re just have a

go.

Katherine May: Anything

Jen Hatmaker: sort of. I don’t, yeah. Love. I don’t love fantasy. That’s not my favorite.

Katherine May: Yep. Not

Jen Hatmaker: for

Katherine May: everyone. Um,

Jen Hatmaker: it’s not for everyone. Although when my people force me, like, you’re gonna read this one.

Mm-hmm. Almost every time I like it. Yeah.

Katherine May: So

Jen Hatmaker: I, it’s interesting. I think maybe I’m operating on an old narrative. Um,

Katherine May: one of the things I actually like the most about going on holiday is when there’s a shelf of books and you’re kind of like. You, you’re sort of forced to dip into stuff that you wouldn’t normally read.

I’ve read so many good books that way that maybe I’ve been a bit snobbish about, perhaps that I’ve thought were a little too mainstream for me, and then you’re like, oh, this is why everyone loves this. Okay. I’m just gonna get really

Jen Hatmaker: into this. Oh gosh. You’re so

Katherine May: right. I love that.

Jen Hatmaker: You are so right. I, this is like, I, I also have that literary like elitism somewhere in my bloodstream where I’m like,

Katherine May: mm-hmm.

Jen Hatmaker: Okay. Look, if everybody is saying it, I’m not going to read it. Yeah. I’m

Katherine May: not gonna read

Jen Hatmaker: that. Or that’s just like [00:59:00] DRL for the masses. Isn’t that so hilarious? Yeah. Listen, I, um, picked up the, the cacophony, the absolute groundswell of adoration. For the correspondent, and thank God I did. I hope you’ve read it.

It’s so precious. It’s worth every bit of hype.

Katherine May: I’ve just started it actually, so I don’t know. Right? Oh, right,

Jen Hatmaker: oh,

Katherine May: got

Jen Hatmaker: it.

On

Jen Hatmaker: book. Your heart is gonna just Thank you. When you finish

Katherine May: that book, I’ve just come to the end of my Sedaris marathon and I’ve, I needed something

Jen Hatmaker: very different. Energy.

Katherine May: Very, yeah.

Record. Scratch Me. It took me a moment to adapt. I have to say,

Jen Hatmaker: uh, it’s so delightful to me. It’s a cozy winter book, so again, when I’m like steering into this like, emotional space, the for me is nurturing, which is cozy.

Katherine May: Mm.

Jen Hatmaker: It, it fits right in that category, which is, which is pretty kind of earnest, sort of heartwarming, like.[01:00:00]

You’ll finish it with apy tears rolling down your face.

Katherine May: It’s, it’s got some grumpiness in there, which I, you know, I like a bit of grumpiness.

Jen Hatmaker: A little cantankerous. It is just, it’s everything good. It’s everything good.

Katherine May: Wonderful. Wonderful. I hate to say it, Jim, but it is time for you to come back home again.

Is there a moment, I mean, you spend a long time on your ME camps.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah.

Katherine May: Is there a clear moment when you know it’s over and it’s time to come back? You can say never.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh boy. You know, it’s interesting because after four weeks, which is a luxury, I understand that that is such an absurd privilege.

Katherine May: Wonderful.

Jen Hatmaker: To get to, to do that for four weeks at a time. I find at the end of it, I am so renewed. I’m so refreshed, I am so rested that I’m craving a bit of the like, yeah. [01:01:00] Hubbub of my normal life. I miss the people and I am, I’m missing some of the productivity ’cause I really love my job and I really love my work.

And, um, that’s never ever been in question and I’m ready to kind of get back to it. And so it is a little bit like that sort of button in me finally like resets and I feel it like, okay, all right, I’ve got gas back in the tank. I have recovered from this last year and I think I’m, I’ve got fresh ideas.

Like that is one way that I know my brain is starting to churn out some new ideas and like it’s thinking thoughts that I did not have room to think before. And I’m like, okay, okay. I’ve cleared out the debris enough that there’s like, we sort of did the like scorched earth brush fire and there’s like new growth starting to come up.

And so that’s how I know.

Katherine May: It’s one of the meanings of the word, the, the phrase, the clearing. You know, [01:02:00] there’s a That’s right. A clarity that comes when you make that space. And that’s so important, I think. And is there something you bring back home with you?

Jen Hatmaker: My favorite thing to bring back home with me is whoever I met, whatever incredible conversation I had with them, whatever memory I put into my memory bank, which is a lot.

Um, like, there’s one other thing I’m going, I know that this is audio only, but I’m gonna just show you for you this I my office? No,

Katherine May: we have video. We put the video on YouTube. So you’re fine. You’re good.

Jen Hatmaker: Okay. This is my office and so I don’t know if, let me do this. Okay. Do you see that?

Katherine May: Oh yes,

Jen Hatmaker: I do. Look, those, that is local art from all five places of me camp.

Katherine May: Oh, amazing. So,

Jen Hatmaker: I’m sorry. Why can’t I figure this out? There we go. There we go. So I go into the gallery and I find a local artist.

Katherine May: Oh,

Jen Hatmaker: and I bring home art so that I will never, [01:03:00] ever forget, and it’s always right here, five feet away from me, the beautiful month I spent in that town.

Katherine May: Brilliant. What a great idea.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah.

Katherine May: Jen, thank you so much. It has been a joy to retreat with you.

Jen Hatmaker: Same. Thanks for having me.

Katherine May: Good girl. Freckle. Oh, well, wasn’t that a ray of sunshine? I am, uh, all about the sunshine this year, apparently. Who knew? Is this gonna be a change in me? Am I gonna be sunbathing soon? I doubt it. The spring sunshine’s about as hot as I like to get. Frankly, I haven’t had to take my cardigan off, which means that all’s right with the world.

We’ve managed to leave behind the school party or they’ve stopped screeching, I don’t know which. And Rele has found a lot of good sniffs to sniff. [01:04:00] No rele. Thank you. We do not want you rolling in anything. If it wants to be rolled in, it will not make you smile. Very nice. Good girl. Ah, listen, I am personally ready to embrace this new season, and I hope it’s visiting you Well.

And if you’re enjoying this podcast, can I ask just for a little favor that you like, subscribe, just use what you have in your app to show your appreciation. We have a growing number of listeners, which is fantastic. But the way that podcasts find their way into other people’s hands, you know, get recommended by the various apps and algorithms that we all use is pretty mysterious.

Um, and so we do know that if you can, you [01:05:00] what you have in your app to say that you like it and recommend it, sometimes you can give it stars, sometimes you give it a heart. It really, really helps us. So I’d be very grateful if you did that or tell your friends maybe they might need a little break too.

Ah, thank you for that. It’s very much appreciated. And quite soon we are drawing up plans for some bonus episodes for our paid subscribers over on Substack or on Patreon. So do watch this space for that. We’ll let you know when that comes, but we’ve got some thoughts. Thank you for being here. I wish you many lovely spring days and hope you’re finding a path through these difficult days.

Sending lots of love. I’ll see you next week. [01:06:00] Bye.