Please note this is an automated transcript and as a result it may contain errors

Katherine May: [00:00:00] Hello, it’s Katherine here. I am doing a kind of February inspection of my garden. It is early in the year, but it’s really interesting that there are signs of life already. The euphorbia has got fresh green flowers in bud and there are just the first few spikes, likes of what I think might be crocuses coming through.

It’s exciting. It seems very soon after winter being so long. It’s really, really good to feel spring coming in. I can see the worms have been busy. There’s worm casts everywhere. So that’s a brilliant sign that my soil is still [00:01:00] healthy and I am praying with every fiber of my being that maybe some frogs or newts will come and lay their eggs in my pond.

I dunno if that’s a tall order. I’m hopeful at the moment. It feels like there’s quite a lot of work to do. It doesn’t quite call to me yet. I have to admit I’m a bit of a gardener, but maybe not enough of one to see the bare damp soil and see possibility. Right now I am of course, wishing I’d planted more bulbs at the end of last year, but then I was exhausted at the end of last year.

So what are you doing? Sometimes you just have to be satisfied with what you have done. Weird to [00:02:00] think that in a couple of months time I’ll be sitting out here though

it’s a funny moment, isn’t it? This turned towards spring without really feeling like spring’s here. It’s bitterly cold and I for one, do not wanna get on my knees and start digging that soil, yet a better gardener would to having to learn how to prune my fruit tree this year as well. But I’m told not until April or May for a plum.

So that’s comforting, isn’t it? ’cause it means I don’t have to do it yet. Hope you’re well and, uh, getting into this new season, I am full of optimism. That a big change will come. I dunno why. I think some people are just naturally optimistic, and I’m [00:03:00] one of them really. But I had the perfect guest for optimism for you this week.

It’s the brilliant Mike Sowden, the author of the Everything Is Amazing Substack Newsletter, and I think some people just really know how to choose the perfect title to summarize them, because really Mike writes about science, geology, geography, the natural world in a very facts driven way. But the real theme behind it is this sense of complete curiosity, fascination, and yes amazement at all the cool things out there.

He is really compelling company for that reason. It’s so great to be around enthusiastic people [00:04:00] and he talks about, in the interview, he talks about enthusiasts as a category of people in and of themselves, which, yeah, I see that it’s definitely a trait or a type, isn’t it? People who feel enthusiasm and therefore can pass it on to the rest of us.

I think the world is driven by enthusiasts. We don’t necessarily appreciate them enough ’cause they often seem a little eccentric, maybe even a little overwhelming because enthusiasm is a kind of mono tropism, a focus on one kind of intense interest. But my goodness, we need the enthusiast of this world.

And I could do with finding a little more enthusiasm for getting back into my garden [00:05:00] Maybe when the sun comes out. Eh? I’ll see you a little later after my conversation with Mike. Take care.

Mike, welcome to the Clearing. 

Mike Sowden: Thank you. Hello, Katherine, 

Katherine May: are you It’s, are you really good to have you here? I’m good, thank you. How are you? 

Mike Sowden: Good. I’m good. I could be a little warmer, but I’m good. 

Katherine May: So where are you today? 

Mike Sowden: Uh, I am on the, uh, the west coast of Scotland. Uh, I’m just southwest of Glasgow and, um, it’s looking across to the Isle of Aaron that currently has, I think it still has some snow on it, but, um, just the whole of the sweep of the, the, the Firth of Clyde is, um, is just off the shoreline here.

So it’s 

Katherine May: how 

Mike Sowden: gorgeous. It’s great. It’s sounds 

Katherine May: beautiful. 

Mike Sowden: I feel very lucky. 

Katherine May: Are you feeling in need of a, uh, to get away from it all at the moment, or is, is life pretty calm? 

Mike Sowden: [00:06:00] Ah, you see, I started listening to your interview with Oliver Bergman, uh, just a few days ago, and I had to stop because he was saying exactly what was, what was in my head and what I was planning to say to you here, which is I’m in a season of my life where I just, um, I feel like I don’t want to get away from it all.

I want to go to where it all is. So I feel like I want to, I want to go and be where the people are and, and meet people and hang around with enthusiasts and, and, and learn how this world works in a, in a bit more of an close and personal way. So I’m, I’m feeling, and I think a reaction, that’s a reaction to the news in a way because there is so much that is kind of dark and grim and worrying at the moment and it 

Katherine May: so much, 

Mike Sowden: so much and it, but that makes me think, okay, well this is, in a way, this is a little bit of a, um, a [00:07:00] call for me to engage a bit more with what I’m doing.

Mm-hmm. And to go and actually just not. Be sat in, do, do what I’m I, I would usually do, which is sat in front of my laptop surrounded by books. Um, just lost in my own thoughts. I would rather just find a way to get out into the world a little bit more. And, and I, I also, I have a reason for doing that this year, which is I’m gonna, I’m piecing together the makings of a book that’s gonna be on the Power of Enthusiasm.

Oh, that’s so, and thats gonna involve, so I, I, I’d love it because it’s just, I, it’s an excuse to hang out with enthusiastic people and learn from them. So that is very much how I’m feeling at the moment. So 

Katherine May: I love that. I, but I, it’s interesting actually, I, I think there’s something in the air about that. I don’t think that’s just you, I’m feeling quite a lot like that as well.

And I, I feel like I’ve been in a long cycle of. [00:08:00] Wanting to escape everything, you know, and, and just not wanting to be where other humans are, like very drawn towards solitude and, and things like that. And the last few months I’ve felt like I’m ready to kind of reenter the world probably on different terms.

Like probably having learned a thing or two about what I need. But also I just think that maybe in the tail end of a pandemic, that, that we’ve got too far apart, you know? And that simple bits of contact that were once really familiar have started to feel quite challenging. You know, like going into a shop to ask for something instead of ordering it online suddenly feels almost tricky.

Yeah. Um. I want to challenge that. That doesn’t, that doesn’t seem right to me. But yeah, I want to share enthusiasm with other people too. Like that’s, that’s actually a really lovely thing [00:09:00] to do. And I’m, I miss that a bit. 

Mike Sowden: I love, I love seeing somebody get infected with a beautiful idea and you see it light, you see it kind of flower on their face and in their eyes, their eyes kind of light up and, and it, it’s just a really, um, it, it’s a really fun thing to see somebody see what you are seeing in your imagination and they kind of, you know, get fall in love with the possibilities of an idea.

And I, um, I love that happening to me as well. I’m selfish enough that I want to go and hang out with people who do that to me. 

Katherine May: Well, it’s contagious, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s, it’s all contagion. And I, I think one of the things that’s happened as we’ve all retreated into our separate homes is that we’re missing those opportunities.

Like the randomizes, that, that’s where I think about it. The, those little bits of contact that you haven’t planned, you know, you haven’t gone to a talk about. Something exciting and therefore you’re learning about it. But instead, I mean, for me, a [00:10:00] big randomizer used to be the school gates. My son isn’t at that age anymore, but you’d bump into a person and they would tell you a thing and you’d be like, Ooh, that’s an interesting thing.

I might think some, you know, he thinks some more about that thing or talk to you about it for five minutes and then it’s over. But they’re like, those little kind of random elements in your day can really spread enthusiasm, I think. 

Mike Sowden: Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I, uh, that kind of ties in with, um, Steven Johnson, the writer who I, he was on Substack as well.

He wrote a book called, where Good Ideas come from, and his, um, his thesis is that a good idea is really just a fragment of, of part ideas. That bounce around and they need to, they need to collide with each other. 

Katherine May: That’s exactly how I think about it. 

Mike Sowden: I love that. Yeah. And well, it’s, it’s a, it’s a wonderful book and I’ve had it in the back of my mind for ages ever since I wrote that.

And I start to think about coffee shops and coffee shops are just the right amount of background noise for your brain to [00:11:00] relax into that state of colliding ideas together. 

Katherine May: Interesting. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. If, if it, I find, I dunno if you, you have this, but if it’s too quiet, you become your, your, 

Katherine May: oh God, yeah. 

Mike Sowden: It’s self-conscious consciousness.

You can, it’s almost like you’re listening to yourself thinking, and, and you are, it’s just a very, I find it a very awkward state. So why am I, when I’m in a coffee shop, I find my, my brain loosens and I can start to play with ideas in a different way. And I think it’s that, it’s this kind of, oh, I’ve got all these bits that I can kind of put together ’cause I’m in this kind of playful state.

Katherine May: Mm. Yeah. I wonder also though, for you, I’m just thinking about your desire to get out in the world. I mean, you are so well traveled and you’ve done loads of interesting things, but also you live in a really beautiful part of the world, right? Yeah. And I, I wonder if a bit like Oliver Berkman. You don’t need to go very far anymore.

You, you’ve sinned the world [00:12:00] quite thoroughly. You understand what it is. You’ve seen some kind of awe-inspiring, fascinating things, and fascinations a massive driver for you. 

Mike Sowden: Mm-hmm. 

Katherine May: Um, but also you’ve settled somewhere very consciously that that really works for you. And I wonder if that, if you’ve just got it right, you know, 

Mike Sowden: oh, 

Katherine May: maybe that happens sometimes.

Mike Sowden: I, I don’t, I don’t know, but I feel like I am, I’m getting a little bit restless again in a, in a good way. So, um, my plan at, at the moment, my partner is from Costa Rica, and, um, she’s here at the moment. And then our plan is to go to Costa Rica for a little while, and then we’ll bounce back and forwards. And that plan gives us the freedom to choose to not come back here immediately, to go somewhere else for a little while and try that out.

And I’m, I’m, I’m kind of feeling the appeal of that, but also I have been in this flat for a couple of years now and it’s got a, it’s things like I’ve got a [00:13:00] bookcase with books in it. You know, for years I was living out of a rucksack. Now that, that’s literally what I was doing. This was, I was doing a lot of that as a travel writer.

But, but, um, when I came up here, uh, during the pandemic, I just, uh, sold a family home and got rid of 99% of my possessions. So literally I had a ruck sack. And that felt really good at the time, and it still feels good to be, to be feeling like, oh, I’ve got my home on my back. But also I’m now feeling the other thing, which is like, oh.

This is kind of, ah, this is nice. I can put things there. Yeah. I can put things over there. I could build something there. You know, it’s that kind of feeling. Yeah. So I’m, I’m feeling 

conflicted. 

Katherine May: Well, having base is no bad thing if you’re a wanderer, is it? 

Mike Sowden: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I also like the idea that, um, I dunno who it was, I think it was Tim Ferris who suggested if you, if there are places where you know, you’re gonna be traveling [00:14:00] to and from for a few years, then set up arrangements with maybe a hotel where they hold on onto a suitcase for you.

And that suitcase is filled with things that are just for that place. So it’s like winter clothing for Scotland, summer clothing for Costa Rica, and there’s, and those things are stored in those places, 

Katherine May: so you’re not carrying the between. Yeah. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. So I, I like that wisdom. That’s next level wisdom of that.

Yeah, 

Katherine May: that’s very next level. I don’t think I can, 

it 

Mike Sowden: really is 

Katherine May: quite a match to be that organized, but there we go. 

Mike Sowden: Yes, me neither. But it’s something to aspire towards. 

Katherine May: Well, let’s take you into this space of thinking about getting away from it all for a while. You are a, you’re a busy man. You create this incredible newsletter called Everything is Amazing, which is so like, contains so much depth and research and enthusiasm and good humor and like really spreads the fire of your enthusiasm.

Um, [00:15:00] you must sometimes feel a little burnt out from that. I’m guessing it must be pretty intense. Um, so I’m taking you into my clearing, which is really your clearing, um, because it’s a clearing of your imagining. Where do we find ourselves, what landscape are we in for your, your dream retreat? 

Mike Sowden: Oh, well, I feel.

I, I read a lot of, I read a lot of fiction and a lot of fantasy and sci-fi, but I find that my thoughts go in answering this to a place that I was in recently for the first time, and that was Kofu. So after I sold the family home, I was feeling absolutely exhausted. I had no idea, um, if I wanted to become a travel writer again.

And I, little did, I know the pandemic was less than a year away when that, you know, when that arrived, travel writing went away. Um, 

Katherine May: yeah. 

Mike Sowden: But I, I, I was trying to work [00:16:00] out what I wanted to do with the rest of my life, and I also knew that I wanted to reconnect with the kind of landscapes that I grew up in.

So, I, I grew up in Cyprus and, um, 

Katherine May: I 

Mike Sowden: didn’t know that. I, I, uh, yeah, five years. My, my father was in the Royal Air Force, so we went out as part of the, um, uh, he was in the peacekeeping force when Turkey invaded the north of Cyprus. And then the Green Line was established. He, he went out, he was seconded over to the UN from the REF, so he lived in, uh, in Nickia, which is now, it now has two names because it’s Europe’s last divided capital.

Uh, and, um, I, I just grew up with these kind of very dry mountains, olive groves, blue sea, the ground so hot that you couldn’t walk on it barefoot, you know, that kind of thing. 

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. 

Mike Sowden: And, um, and, and, and the foods and, and so on. I went to, I went to Greece [00:17:00] for a holiday in 2006, and I spent a month going around Greece, and I absolutely loved it, but I’d never been to Fu and I grew up reading Jared.

Ah, yeah, I, I just, as a kid, I’d burned through so much Jared Dole. Uh, I was obsessed. And, um, unlike many, uh, many English school kids, we did my family and other animals in English literature. So, so I knew I wanted to visit Corfu, and, and I was, I went and I was thinking, this is going to be, there’s no way this can live up to the hype.

You know, I’ve got everything I have in my head about the food and about, about the place and how it would make me feel. There’s no way, but I have to go and confront it. And I, I went there and I lived halfway up the side of a, a mountain, uh, for, for, for two months. I rented a, an Airbnb and [00:18:00] it was a 20 minute walk down to the beach where I could just immediately go swimming.

And it, the, the, the, the sea was like glass and the mountains of Albania and the distance and Greece on, on the other side. And, and then I would have a kebab afterwards and then wander my way up very, you know, taking the longest route I could. It was ridiculous. But the thing I, I, I now think about that is that it taught me to read again.

Nice. ’cause I, that’s where I rediscovered reading. I think I was just so stressed out over, over the, the whole process of, uh, selling the family home, which took a year and everything that came before that, uh, my, my late mother was, um, was very ill for a long time and I, I just lost the ability to read. And when you can’t read, you’re not having, I, I always feel like, like being able to write, for me it’s, it’s as simple [00:19:00] as I’m just a bucket and words go.

And for the, and, and to turn the little valve and for words to go out at the bottom, I need to fill the bucket up. And I just wasn’t Yes, that’s right. There was nothing. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Mike Sowden: So it’s, it’s kafu. It’s the Kafu coast. Um, 

Katherine May: so would you, would you return to exactly the same Airbnb? Would you, you know, how, how identical would you make this is, is that the, the dream?

Mike Sowden: Well, the dream would be to explore the island. I, I would love to, I, I, I don’t think I would return to the exact same place. It was a li it was a, a, a little, it was quite a touristy little village. Um, and it was very quiet when I went there. So I, I arrived in October and I was there for the whole of November.

And a fascinating thing. Happened on, it was about the 6th of November, and one of the things that I’d never learnt until then was that the, the weather in the [00:20:00] Mediterranean and that part of the Mediterranean changes, uh, so predictably that the, um, that the town. Completely changes overnight in accordance to how the weather, how they know the weather is gonna change in the next couple of days.

So I went down to get my shopping one day and to go for a swim and have my kebab. And the, the, the restaurant that I went to have my kebab at had closed and all the restaurants had closed. 

Katherine May: Oh no. 

Mike Sowden: And I, everything had just shut down. And there was, I, it went from like three supermarkets to one little, little corner shop that was open.

And I, I asked him, and you know, I said, 

Katherine May: going down. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah, it was just, it was complete shock. I had no idea what happened and I was just like, I’ve just got used to this. What’s, what’s happened? So how dare you, you know, in that very, very kind of, how dare you take my holiday away from me kind of way. 

Katherine May: So it’s, it’s basically like we are no longer a holiday town.

We are now off season. Click 

Mike Sowden: the season. [00:21:00] Just, just like that. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Mike Sowden: And yeah. And, uh, and I asked, uh, I asked the guy who was in the shop, the remaining shop, and he said, uh oh. Yes. Uh, you, you will see in a couple of days the, the weather will change. Uh, we will have a incredible thunderstorm. The sea will be whipped up into a frenzy and you will have to stay in for the whole day because it will rain.

And that’s exactly what happened. And two days later, two days later, the, the sky just went from blue to just. Utterly clouded over and at night there was this spectacular lightning storm. And I was watching, I was looking out the window and watching the sky lit up from, you know, the clouds lit up from, from within.

Mm-hmm. But these incredible lightning bolts. And then the next day the lightning was hitting, um, the coast and it was hitting the town below. And you could actually hear, I heard a lightning bolt hit a roof and it made a clang. 

Katherine May: Wow. 

Mike Sowden: So it was incredible. It’s most incredible sight. Um, [00:22:00] but, uh, but yeah, and then, and then the skies kind of cleared, but the weather, the temperature had just changed 10 degrees in a couple of days, 

Katherine May: just like that.

Wow. 

Mike Sowden: Just like that. And then the, the, the sea was rough from that point onwards. It was kind of rough. And when I went, went back on the ferry, 

Katherine May: it’s amazing. 

Mike Sowden: It was, it was different. Totally different climate. So it was amazing. It, it, it amazed me how they knew and I just felt like this has been going on for decades and they know stuff.

About how the world works that I, yeah, I don’t, because I just, I’m, I’ve just been, I’ve just helicoptered my way in and then I’m saying to myself, oh, I know this place. I know nothing. And um, and that’s when I thought I would love to spend a few years exploring this island properly. So now I feel like I’d love to try living in Kafu town, which is the biggest, biggest town on the island.

Try living in the north of the island where the, where the DOLs lived. Try the far south. There’s so much. [00:23:00] Yeah. 

Katherine May: And see that all of those seasons pass through. Would you, like, do you dream of these places in the, in the sun or do, or, or was that disrupted winters quite appealing? Like what, what would be the time of year that you’d arrive?

Uh, 

Mike Sowden: I would, I would, yeah, I would love to experience all of it because the, the rain was really fun. Uh. It wasn’t fun when I was caught out in it, when it first happened, I, I had to run for it. I had to run up the hill because I, I was foolish enough to have not believed that the, the rain would be that bad.

So I went for a long walk, but when I was inside looking out, it’s fabulous. I just really, really enjoyed it, the novelty of it, and just seeing how, just how different everything looked. It went from a view that was, I could see for a hundred miles or whatever it was, probably about 50 miles maybe, but it went from that to be able to see for like 20 [00:24:00] yards, and it was, and seeing all the, all the trees lashing around and I, yeah, I, I love the variety.

That’s one of the things I love about the uk, the variety. You never know what 

Katherine May: you 

Mike Sowden: get, and I, I’d love living here all year round. I enjoy every season. For, for what it is. 

Katherine May: Well, I should think you get quite the extremes in Scotland. 

Mike Sowden: It can, it’s not too bad though. This, this, this town is a bit of a, a microclimate.

So, uh, you must have that where you are, where the sea kind of blunts the extremes a bit. 

Katherine May: Yeah, well ’cause we’re, ’cause whi was in a kind of sheltered, uh, like it’s the mouth of an esry really, rather than open sea. We have a microclimate as well, but also we, yeah, we don’t get the full open sea kind of wildness very often.

I mean, there are days when you go down to the sea and it’s, the waves are really choppy, but most of the time we, it feels quite sheltered. We never get snow. Um Right. Which. [00:25:00] Much to my disappointment, honestly. Um, quite often, you know, the next town on will have snow, but we, it just skips us. Um mm-hmm. But we, yeah, we don’t get quite the high seas that, uh, you know, round the coast in Margate, for example, some days I go, you know, I’m there and the sea is crashing over the sea wall kind of 20 feet or something, you know, and it’s like, it’s, we, yeah.

We don’t experience that. So yeah, we, we have a quite a sheltered, sheltered environment. 

Mike Sowden: Have you ever been swimming when the sea is a bit, a bit of a stir on? 

Katherine May: Yes. I now counsel myself against that because actually it’s, I do think that, you know, we can get ourselves into some more unsafe situations, but I have accidentally ventured in, uh, and I wrote about it in Enchantment, actually a day when I just got into the sea and realized I was being thrown about like a cork and, yeah.

Yeah. It was really scary. I mean, I, I do like to get into the sea when there’s some waves because [00:26:00] we so rarely get them here and they are really joyful when they’re kind of contained. But that day I, I just badly misjudged it and I Yeah. Was just being thrown about and it was, it was quite, you, you really feel the potency of that, you know, just what water can do at those moments, I think.

Mike Sowden: Yeah. Yeah. You want the waves to be like a, like a golden retriever leaping up rather than being shoved over onto Yeah. Onto your face. 

Katherine May: Or like, I think swim at a beach that has waves anyway. ’cause when there are waves in Witta, but it’s probably not the best sign, honestly. Maybe I’ve, maybe that’s what I’ve learned, but I, I’m more risk averse than other swimmers as well.

Like I just. I’m a, I don’t gamble. I don’t swim in the sea, but it’s choppy. Mm-hmm. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. 

Katherine May: I like to, yeah, try and try and stay alive, which I just think is an important principle. Hi. 

Mike Sowden: I think that’s a good, good 

Katherine May: life. I think my best, you know? Yeah. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. 

Katherine May: So I’m, what, what I’m conjured by your landscape is the [00:27:00] scent of it, because I’m just thinking about all those lovely coniferous trees around you, the hot sun, I mm-hmm.

Like, it’s a really kind of very complete landscape. What about the actual building? I mean, I, I know you want to explore around, are you the sort of person that takes a tent on your back to explore? Or is there like a dream little cabin or luxury hotel that you would be laying your head down at night? 

Mike Sowden: I, uh, I, I, I very much love sleeping, outdoors, um, in all sorts of.

Faintly ridiculous ways to be honest. Um, I, I, I’ve done a lot of bivy bagging, which is literally just sleeping in a waterproof, breathable sack. Sounds awful. Your face is 

Katherine May: okay. 

Mike Sowden: Poking out. Your, your face is just straight up into the, in, into the great outdoors all night. Wow. 

Katherine May: Okay. 

Mike Sowden: Um, but in this case, I, I really enjoyed having my own little apartment.

In. So I would, I would want to, [00:28:00] you know, if, if I was there on my own or if I was there with my partner, I would want to have a, well, it’s different with a partner, isn’t it? Because you, you wouldn’t put another human being through the ridiculous misery that you would willing be willing to inflict from yourself.

Katherine May: People like it. Mike, I dunno what to tell you. Some people seem to like it. Uh, 

Mike Sowden: mm-hmm. 

Katherine May: I can’t speak to that experience myself, but, you know, I prefer a pillow menu. But, you know, 

Mike Sowden: I hear you. Well, I, I, I mean, I, I recently wrote about, uh, there was a guy who was a, a, a young guy, graphic designer from Bristol who, um, decided to sleep in the woods for four years, and he did that.

And he was, um, yeah, he did that four years, all, you know, including in the winter he was sleeping in a hammock with a tarp over it. And he, uh, and he, he loved it. And he was, he was doing it. He was doing it because he loved doing it rather than, 

Katherine May: yeah. 

Mike Sowden: He wasn’t doing it because he. There, there were other, you know, other reasons, like he couldn’t do [00:29:00] this or he couldn’t do that.

He, he stored all his stuff in his, in his car. He parked his car and then he would go and find some woodland and he would set up camp. And he did this pretty much continuously for four years. And the reason he stopped was he got engaged. So, 

Katherine May: listen, I’m not having it that women get in the way of this, but equally well, it does sound like he met someone who was like, yeah, really?

Do we have to do that? 

Mike Sowden: Possibly. Well, I, well I also suspect that he would also get together with somebody who liked that kind of thing as well. Yes. So I, I, I’d be, I really want to interview him at some point to find out what the story was next, because Yeah, I wanna know if he’s still doing it and if he’s 

Katherine May: doing it.

I do understand that. I mean, yeah, I, I don’t, you know, I, I joke because I am not prone to camping. Um, but I think. Mostly because I hate the faff of it, [00:30:00] honestly. Mm. Like I just, I was a girl guide. I was a very enthusiastic girl guide and we were a very traditional little guide pack that used to go on two week camps where we would, you know, unfurl our canvas army ration tents, put them all up, build our own bedding rack, build our own like sink to wash up in and sink to wash our bodies in.

Like there was, you know, it was absolutely kind of 100% nature camping. Mm-hmm. Lashing together, straight twigs. We’d have to find the twigs every morning. We’d roll up the edges of the tent to air it, and then, um, lay out our bedding and then wrap them up in our bedding rolls and put them on the, like it was, oh, it was a 24 hour job to live in the girl guide method.

And of course all of it worked. And if you didn’t get your bedding roll done properly, it would leak and you’d get water in your bedding roll [00:31:00] and yeah, you had to queue up at the, um, campfire every night for some hot water to take in your washing up boat. Have a washing in. Yeah, I’m not going back there.

I’m not going back there. 

Mike Sowden: It doesn’t feel like a, it doesn’t feel like a good deal at the end of the day, does it? It’s like I’ve done, I’ve done five times the work and I’m now less comfortable and less clean. Yes, 

Katherine May: that’s right. That’s, I remember one of the senior guides with some defiance in her eye going outside one morning with her bowl of hot water and shaving her legs on the lawn.

Mike Sowden: Wow. 

Katherine May: I think, I think she’d been pushed just a bit too far, you know, but yeah. 

Mike Sowden: Well, I, I, there’s, there’s part of me that gets that as well. I mean, part of it is the, the more that I do it, you know, there are, the more I do it, the more ridiculous it appears to me, and I’m sure that at some point I will think, I will think I’m doing, I’m doing this because it’s, [00:32:00] it’s outlandishly silly.

Rather than I’m doing this because I. I’m, I’m in love with the novelty of it rather than the actual appeal of it. 

Katherine May: Yeah. That’s I, 

Mike Sowden: right. 

Katherine May: It’s a, yeah. 

Mike Sowden: The narrative, I 

Katherine May: get 

Mike Sowden: it. Appeal of it, it can be a different thing. Do you ever have that thing where you are, you’re thinking, I, okay, everything is, is going to pot here, everything’s gone, Pete to, and today is gonna be awful, but it’s gonna make a great story.

Katherine May: Yeah. I think, I think that is the great gift of being a writer is that, that when you are fed up, you kind of write a new story in your life almost. Like, I, well, I’ll do a thing then that’s fine. I can, I’ve, I have this sort of diffuse permission to do a thing that actually everyone’s really got that permission.

But as a writer I can say, oh yeah, I’m, I’m writing about this, you know? Mm-hmm. And that lets you. It lets you cross over fences. It lets you kind of talk your way into things. It lets you ask curious questions from people [00:33:00] and, and justify why you are asking. It’s yeah. Yeah. I like, I like that. Definitely.

And 

Mike Sowden: I feel, I feel like with, with this year and however long it’s gonna take to put together this book, I can, I, I can push myself to become this more enthusiastic version of myself. That is a, it’s a bit of an artificial thing. It’s a bit of a, okay, I’m, I am gonna be a bit cheekier than normal. I am gonna, I am gonna risk looking like an absolute PRT by doing something that just, that, that just seems very, um, uh, to a, a level of curiosity applied curiosity and confidence that other people might see as kind of semi deranged.

You know, that’s kind of the, that’s, that’s a role that I can, I can. Make for myself and I can step into and I can, I can wear for a while for the purposes of the book. 

Katherine May: And that’s fun. Yeah. It’s, I think it’s a real honor to do [00:34:00] that. And I, I was, funny enough, I was thinking this morning, this was my train of thought, which I’m not gonna follow through, but I was reading about people doing CrossFit and I was thinking, God, that looks awful.

I hate the idea of CrossFit. That looks horrible. And then I thought I would do it if I could write about it. Oh, like they’re the dangerous thoughts. Like I would try it just to write about how awful it is and I might discover I love it, but I doubt it very much. 

Mike Sowden: That would be I, oh, I, I, I’m not gonna say I challenge you.

That’s re 

Katherine May: made us cross 

Mike Sowden: a little part of it. That’ll be, but the thing is, the thing is doing something and doing it terribly and even doing something and, and failing miserably. 

Katherine May: Who says I do it terribly? I.

Mike Sowden: Oh, I fine. This is, no, no, this is, I I see that you’ve, you’ve already taken up the challenge yourself there if you’re Yeah. Oh, that’s good. Have, 

Katherine May: have some steel. Mike, 

Mike Sowden: I’ve, I, I very much want to see this now. I, but I, [00:35:00] but, but do, you know, doing something from the perspective of somebody who’s coming into it completely fresh, um, and then finding out that it is horrible and having a lot of fun with that.

Yeah. I mean, I, I like Bill Bryson walking the Appalachian Trail and failing miserably. 

Katherine May: He did not enjoy that, did he? Cheryl Stray made it look a lot better than he did, I think. 

Mike Sowden: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. But I, yeah, I would, I, I look forward to reading that book. Katherine, 

Katherine May: I maybe an article for Harper’s, I dunno, in the sort of David Wallace tradition of going on a cruise.

Yes. I cool. Uh, I will not be joining CrossFit, but I, but there is, there is a terrible like, writerly part of my brain, which I think you might have too. Which is like, I can, I can endure anything if I’m gonna get a good yarn out outfit. I think pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike Sowden: I, I definitely have that. And I also, you [00:36:00] know, I, I would, I, I’d love to run a marathon.

My fitness levels are nowhere near that. I would also love, as my friend Brendan does to, to run a, uh, to do an ultra marathon. 

Katherine May: Oh God. 

Mike Sowden: You know, I, but, but that, because that sounds like just a, such a strange human experience to go through such an adventure. You know, it’s like a definition of an adventure, which I learned when I was a travel writer is, number one, decide to do something.

Number two, do it entirely the wrong way. And then number three, survive the experience. That’s an adventure. It doesn’t matter. It can be doing something outdoorsy. It can be doing public speaking. It can be doing anything, anything at all. And it can be an adventure in, in the, the, you know, that arc, that journey that you put yourself through, where you have all those kind of storified, all is lost kind of moments where you’re like, oh, I can’t do this.

Katherine May: There needs to be some [00:37:00] despair. Yeah, I could definitely bring that to the story with CrossFit. There would def, I can guarantee despair and possibly, you know. Knees that will no longer work. I dunno. So I always ask people what they’re doing on retreat. Are you, are you kind of, are you hiking? Is that, is that what you mean by exploring the island?

Or is, is it more about making connections with people, you know, what, what would be, what would be the activity that would make you feel really satisfied while you’re there? 

Mike Sowden: I think, I think, yeah, talking to people, the, well, the activity that would make me really satisfied is being there long enough to brush up my terrible spoken Greek into an actual conversational level of Greek.

And then to be able to have those conversations with locals without them having to speak in English. If I got to that point, I would feel very [00:38:00] smug. But, but also I think just, um, the, the thing I really loved about being there for, for two months, I was, um. Um, I was there on my own and so I had complete control over my day and sometimes I would just go somewhere and pay attention all day.

That’s what I did. My, my job was just to go there and just kind of be, and just kind of drink in the world and see what other people were doing and be fascinated by all these things that I hadn’t seen until I slowed down enough to see them. And, um, and so there are, there are so many places in the world that I now feel, um, not that I wasted my time there, but I could have, I could have paid more attention.

I could have seen more. I, I feel this about, uh, I feel this about Costa Rica, so I’m quite excited to go back. I, I feel this about Cyprus now, and I, I recently. Not too recently. It was a while ago, I read, um, Colin [00:39:00] Tran’s Journey into Cyprus, and he was the last, um, the last person to actually do an, an entire loop of the island before it was divided in 1972.

And he just, um, he, he was essentially sleeping, sleeping rough. And he just walked around the island for a few months and the whole book is just an incredible work of paying attention. And Colin Thon, the travel writer is just, um, he’s, he’s kind of a mystery in that he always lies about who he is. He pretends, he’s a, he’s a retired school teacher, so nobody ever finds out, oh, that was Colin Thubron.

Right. They only find that later, you know, so he’s very good at getting people to just be themselves rather than to suddenly realize that the camera is on them and then they, they feel that pressure to perform. So he is very good at, at doing that. And I would, I would love to. Have those skills of paying attention.

So I think I would, I would go [00:40:00] there and I would just spend a lot of time listening and watching. 

Katherine May: There’s a depth to that experience. Yeah. Yeah. The whole, the whole sensory landscape, like immersing. 

Mike Sowden: Absolutely. 

Katherine May: I think it, it makes me think actually about how holidays can kind of fall short, really, because the holiday is centered on us as the person experiencing it, whereas travel in its kind of more profound sense is about connecting with place.

And I think often there’s a slight mismatch in our intention there. We, we go somewhere else and then don’t really, don’t really meet the place as it is, as we find it. Yeah. We, we kind of bring ourselves there too much maybe. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think so. And, and I think. The, the thing that always makes me suspicious about when I’m go traveling is when I become, suddenly become the kind of [00:41:00] person who is so organized that they filled every part of their day, you know, with something in advance.

And it’s like, why am I doing this when I don’t do this at home? And then it’s like, oh, that’s because 

Katherine May: I feel 

Mike Sowden: like I’m there and so I’ve 

Katherine May: got to, I’m time. Yeah, 

Mike Sowden: yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Mike Sowden: And as you, as you said earlier, it’s, it’s serendipity. It’s, it’s like you’ve got to kind of put some, some time in, in place so that things can happen that you’re not gonna predict in advance.

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Mike Sowden: So, and that’s, in a way, I feel like that’s the place, speaking to you, that’s the place that’s allowing the place to be part of the conversation. 

Katherine May: Yes. I’m guessing you’re also hoping to find some kind of. Unique geological feature or bizarre weather phenomenon that you can report back on? 

Mike Sowden: Oh, absolutely.

When those, um, those storms rolled in and I was fascinated for just three days, I was just like, wow, nature is incredible. Um, I was very much at the point of, um, kind of cobbling together [00:42:00] my idea for what my newsletter was going to be, and then me feeling that, that kind of three day, wow. That was the perfect moment to kind of remind myself of what I am trying to do with this newsletter that I want to do and my, the whole, I notice this as well with my newsletter.

Anytime that I’m trying to be useful with my newsletter, it’s not quite hitting the right notes and anytime that I’m trying to, I’m trying to. I, I’m trying to be, um, informative. I’m trying to be Wikipedia with my newsletter. It doesn’t quite hit the right note as well, but anytime that I’m just trying to make people go, wow.

And sometimes I can make them go Wow, by they go, wow. At what an idiot I am. That’s another kind of, wow. 

Katherine May: I think they do. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. I Well, I hope so. I hope so. I, I work very hard on that, but, um, but no, it’s, it’s like my, my newsletter really runs on trying to evoke that feeling [00:43:00] of, of being in awe. Yeah. And, um, 

Katherine May: well share actually sharing it.

And I think the thing is that it’s authentic, isn’t it? That you are authentically saying, wow, I, I think sometimes you read. Maybe articles or newsletters with similar content, but the author, it’s more cynically delivered. Like, I’m gonna hand you a thing that’s fascinating. And that’s, you know, that’s the transaction.

Whereas you are always like, wow, I have to tell you about this thing. And while I’m there, just let me tell you about a few other things too, because that, you know, they’re all linked and I’ll get back to that thing in a minute. But, you know, yeah, that’s, that feels like how enthusiasm is actually shared rather than 

Mike Sowden: Yeah.

Katherine May: Cynically given it’s not didactic. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. And I, I feel like enthusiasm is, is it, it’s kind of a, a conversational mess at times as well. Enthusiasm is stumbling over your words because you’re just trying to get the thing that you want to convey. And, um, and there sometimes I, I find there is a tension with when I’m [00:44:00] writing my newsletter, I’m not sounding like myself, so I have to go back and I have to.

Write my newsletter as a, as a piece of conversation. And sometimes it would be really useful to actually, um, I, I do this as, as well. Sometimes I’m, I’m writing my newsletter in the Substack dashboard and I’m thinking, this is sounding a bit formal, so what I need to do is I need to step back, either open up a Google Doc and say what I would say if I was talking this out from the top of my head, and then try and work the two together.

Or I just need to pick up my phone and dictate it and Interesting. In doing so. 

Katherine May: Interesting. So you capture the naturalness of voice then, and 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. And, and this was, this is something I, I, I, I heard, um, uh, it was Liz Gilbert’s podcast for Big Magic. She did, uh, magic Lessons and she was talking about, I think it was, um, it was Brene Brown who was working on a.

[00:45:00] I think this is where I heard it, Benia Brown was working on a chapter for a book, and she wasn’t sure how it was landing. So she basically got a bunch of friends together in a, a cabin, you know, of, of a mountain somewhere, and then everyone, you know, put the bottle of wine down, couple of glasses, and then she stood up and performed a chapter.

And that’s kind of, and I, I thought that’s, that’s where she could hear herself, but also get the reaction of the other, the other people. 

Katherine May: Sometimes you’ve gotta hear your own voice again. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. 

Katherine May: You know, it’s so easy to lose it in, in amongst all the things that you ought to be saying and doing and the, the grammar of the situation.

You sometimes you just need to talk. So are there any, are there any creature comforts you bring with you on this retreat? Something from home that feels familiar or do you, do you carry anything sentimental or comforting around the world with you? 

Mike Sowden: Actually, yes. I have a little. Panda Cola plastic [00:46:00] bottle that I, that I have filled up with sand from a particular beach, uh, in, uh, on the islander westray in ney where I, I used to work as an archeologist.

And this is, uh, uh, the, the beach is called, uh, bu it’s, it’s also called the links of Natland because there’s, there’s a, there’s a golf course there. I’m presuming that’s why where the links part is from it’s beautiful, huge golden beach. It’s the back of it, uh, a Neolithic site, which was a, a essentially a village that’s 5,000 years old and it’s, it’s hardly been dug.

Kathleen, Jamie wrote about it in one of her books recently. Uh, and it’s a really gorgeous place because of, I really feel like it’s a, it’s two things for me. This, this sand, it’s a connection to the, the island itself. Where I have many happy memories of, of working and, uh, just hanging out with friends.

And we [00:47:00] would, we would have every three weeks on each dig, we would have a massive barbecue on the, be on that exact beach that would go on until midnight. So that was great. Um, but it’s also connection with the sea and that, you know, a ney you, I, I really feel like the sea is more of a character in the landscape than anywhere I’ve been in the world.

Um, so I, yeah. So I have this little, so everywhere I go, if we go somewhere and it’s meaningful, I’ll, I’ll have this little bottle. I’ll just sprinkle out a few, a few grains of sand and sprinkle it there. 

Katherine May: Oh, so you, you actually release a little bit of sand across the I do across the world. Wow. Wow. 

Mike Sowden: Across the world.

So it’s, that’s, I love that. That’s kind of a ritual that I’ve been doing for quite a while now. 

Katherine May: So you’re bringing a bottle of sand, and what about a cultural. Item or experience that you bring with you? Do you bring a book? Do you bring, you know, is there music that feels important? What would you bring to kind of immerse yourself [00:48:00] in transport yourself, I guess?

Mike Sowden: Well, first of all, I think I would, I would bring, I would always have a copy of my favorite book, which is with Diversity by Urs Liw. And that, that is a book that will always follow me around. Um, 

Katherine May: wonderful book. 

Mike Sowden: It is a wonderful book, but it’s, it’s also a book that has changed as I’ve grown older. Really all that’s changed is me, but every time I’ve read it in a different period of my life, I’ve read it in a different way.

Interesting. And I’ve loved that, um, you know, rereading generally mm-hmm. Is just such a underappreciated thing, you know, there should be a, a good reads reread challenge. 

Katherine May: Yeah. I, it’s interesting. I think more and more people are talking about rereading now. It, it’s such a. Yeah, it’s such an important part of being a reader, isn’t it?

Returning to those really special books. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah. 

Katherine May: How old were you when you first read The Wizard of Earth Sea? 

Mike Sowden: I think I must have been, oh, maybe 13, [00:49:00] something like that. So when I read it then I was, I was very much falling in love with the Heroic Fantasy model and I was like, oh boy, wizard getting powers.

How cool. Yeah. 

Katherine May: Yeah. 

Mike Sowden: And um, and then just, and I was in love with the kind of the, the rags to riches. Um, you know, little, you know, boy from a little known area of the world comes out of nowhere and goes on to greatness, that, that kind of thing. But that wasn’t the overarching message of the book, and it took me a while to see that the book is really about the cost of power and how power is.

There was a scene that I really didn’t get as a kid, and it was really early on. Um, and it’s a scene where the protagonist, uh, GED is out with his, um, his tutor and his tutor can wield magic and it starts raining on them. [00:50:00] And GED can’t understand why his tutor won’t just shove the cloud away ’cause it’d be so easy.

And the tutor says, um, explains that if he does that, he doesn’t know what the effect will be on the world. So he is, it’s like power, you know, it’s now the Spider-Man mantra with great power comes great responsibility. So, and GED didn’t get that All he, all he understood was, oh, I’m feeling uncomfortable.

I have the power to make it go away. Or you have the power to make it go away. Why don’t, why don’t you do that? And he didn’t understand this wider message of. The, the power that you have has a responsibility for the world that you are in, not just for yourself. And it took me a long time to kind of see that as a message and then understand that as a, as a, as a philosophy.

It’s a book about how it chasing power for its own means can get you into a lot of trouble [00:51:00] and, and can hurt a lot of people. 

Katherine May: Urs Lein is extraordinary. Yeah. And I, but there’s something, I think the heart of that book is so dark and it’s kind of unexpected because you think I’m reading, uh, kind of Coming of Age Wizard School novel.

There’s quite a few of those actually, as it turns out. Yeah, that is, that’s kind of a genre. Even Harry Potter aside, it was a preexisting genre. Um, and it certainly is a trope now, but actually, yeah, the. It’s a book where the consequences are permanent of getting it wrong and where everything is compromised.

Yeah. But it, it’s also, it’s a profoundly ecological novel. It, it’s about the kind of interconnectedness of human deed and the, the entire landscape, it seems to me. And yeah, what a great choice. I’m fully behind this. 

Mike Sowden: Well, I, I also love the earth [00:52:00] sea cycle as well because, uh, I, I learned from an interview, um, that, um, UR Li Gwyn was not happy with who was diversity.

And she sees it as a, she saw it as a failed novel for a long time. 

Katherine May: Imagine being that good that you’ll see that as failed. 

Mike Sowden: I know. Good grief. But she, she felt like she was trying to write. She was trying to write into a genre that she felt was dominated by these very, kind of the, the same things that were going on in the golden age of, um, of science fiction, which was just sexism and this love of, of power, and especially this very macho kind of idea of power.

And, um, and she wanted to kind of write in, um, a more feminist perspective and a more ecological perspective and to, to kind of challenge these ideas, these, these tropes of, of, you know, everyone should be the hero. And, um, [00:53:00] and she, she felt like she didn’t manage to do that with the first novel, but she spent the rest of her novels expanding on these, these ideas.

And one of the things I love now about the series is how they, they go from look, essentially looking at heroes and kings. They go back into kind of looking at people. Who are not heroes and kings in villages. And this is something I I, I encountered in archeology. In archeology, you are taught very quickly that we’re, we’re, we’re not looking at the, the, the kings.

We’re not looking at the big people. We are looking at everyone else. The 99.8% of everyone who has ever lived, who were not big names, and we’re looking at their behavior, and then we extrapolate upwards from that. And I learned the value of thinking in that way. And I, it’s a really, it’s, it’s, it’s also a very relatable thing, and I love that Ursula Lewin, that’s what she was trying [00:54:00] to teach.

She was trying to teach that wider perspective on, on humanity and subvert her stories in that way. 

Katherine May: Mm. Well, I honestly, if anyone listening hasn’t read. Any Ursula Lewyn pick up any book, any book that you can get your, because I, I adore her essays as well. Like, I just think she’s the most extraordinary essayist too.

Um, 

Mike Sowden: yeah. 

Katherine May: But The Wizard of Earth Sea, for whatever she thought of it really is a perspective shifter in terms of novels of magic or coming of age, or like, it’s, it is, I think it’s quite anti heroic in and of itself, regardless of the rest of the series, but, but I’m a, you know, I’m a true believer. Okay, Mike?

Yeah. So how do you know when it’s time to leave your retreat? How do you know when it’s time to come home? Like, are there, you’ve traveled a lot. Are, are there distinct moments when you think, [00:55:00] okay, I’m, I’m done here now. 

Mike Sowden: Mm-hmm. Oh, it’s usually when the police move me on. 

Katherine May: Well, fair enough. Yeah. 

Mike Sowden: See, I always feel torn.

Every time I leave somewhere, I feel torn because I can feel myself in this, this liminal place. Oh, liminal is a good word. 

Katherine May: Mm-hmm. 

Mike Sowden: This, this, this, this zone between, I have, you know, the, the road can go in two directions here. I can, I can head off and new experiences, or I can deepen my knowledge of what’s actually happening here.

And I never feel fully committed to one approach when I leave. So, I don’t know. I, I don’t know. I feel like every time I leave summer, it’s an artificial thing. 

Katherine May: You never, you never wanna go. Really? 

Mike Sowden: I never want to go, but I also, I recognize that there are, um, there are opportunities that would not be available to me if I didn’t go.[00:56:00] 

So it’s not like I, it’s not like I’m thinking, oh, I definitely don’t want to go. I never feel that it’s, I, I always feel conflicted, but I feel like, I feel like feeling that way, is that that discomfort, this kind of goes back to sleeping in the woods and, um, doing all these ridiculous things and, and stepping into a, a and a slightly more uncomfortable version of yourself in order to write a book.

Mm-hmm. This is, this, um, this mild discomfort that is actually a very fruitful place for a creative brain to kind of, to be in, you know, you’re not too uncomfortable where you’re kind of shutting down, but you’re not too comfortable that you are, you are kind of becoming unaware. Of, of everything around you.

So I, and this is a, again, I think this is Oliver Bergman. This is like, this was in his, um, 

Katherine May: he’s the patron saint of this, this conversation. I think 

Mike Sowden: he [00:57:00] is. I just, yeah, if, I mean, he’s probably just gonna slap me with plagiarism after this interview. But, but, um, the ability to endure mild discomfort is a superpower.

And I really feel that. 

Katherine May: I think I might have asked you the wrong question actually, because I think I should have asked you, how do you know when it’s time to move on? It’s not necessarily about returning you, you hold the idea of home quite lightly. 

Mike Sowden: Mm-hmm. 

Katherine May: I wonder if it’s more about being in continuous motion and, you know, you’ve, you’ve stopped being so kind of vibrating alert to this place ’cause you’ve settled in it and so then you want to sample another environment.

Mike Sowden: Yeah. I, I, I’m just so fascinated by everything. Uh, that sounds ridiculous, but I, I’m, no, 

Katherine May: I, I, I get it. I fully get it. 

Mike Sowden: Well, one of the, one of the, one of the items I would want to take with me to, uh, to a place like this is, is, this sounds ridiculous. [00:58:00] It’s a dog ball launcher, you know, the, the, the, you know, the kind of the Yeah, I do.

Yeah. Long ones. 

Katherine May: Yeah. Pigg them really, really far. Yeah, you 

Mike Sowden: could really, hell, the, the, the thing is, what this reminds me of is the fact that when, when you do that for a dog, that dog is immediately 100% enthusiasm. I love that about, um, about dogs, and I always want to be reminded that, you know, enthusiasm can also be a choice.

You can kind of go, yes, and you can kind of throw yourself in, and then your feelings will follow because. That’s, that’s kind of the way we work sometimes. Or they won’t follow you and you’ll have a horrible time, but then you, you’ll make a great story. 

Katherine May: Mike. 

Mike Sowden: Yeah, 

Katherine May: that is the perfect thought for us to leave on.

Thank you so much. It’s been a joy. 

Mike Sowden: Oh, always a pleasure.[00:59:00] 

Katherine May: Back here. Out in my garden. Welcome back. It is school lunchtime and just a few blocks down. I can hear all the kids in the playground screaming and shouting, having the best time. They seem to find enthusiasm so easily. It can be much, much harder for we adults who are tired and cynical and maybe a little world weary.

I think a lot about. The way that my attention flows in my work today, I was sitting down to try and do some edits and I could not find the necessary passion to get me through. Just couldn’t make my brain focus on it. It’s so easy to feel really enthusiastic about brand new [01:00:00] projects, and I think it’s easiest of all to feel that enthusiasm for projects that haven’t been realized yet.

They’re so perfect before you start working on them, and then you have to grapple with just how imperfect they are. And it’s hard, honestly, but it is the staff of most of life. It seems to me. Those starlings just flew over. Still, all the wigs are there in my garden. It’s all very skeletal. I can see last year’s nests, which were invisible until all the leaves fell off, and I can see the buds beginning to burst out.

The thing I can feel enthusiasm feel right now is just feeding those birds, [01:01:00] getting into the gardening a bit later, keeping it simple and manageable. I have to remind myself to do that because I always wanna do the co most complex thing.

Still patience, always plenty to do. It’s definitely easier to look at my garden and my edits right now. Anyway, maybe you should turn to Mike instead because he has got enthusiasm to spare and maybe. I haven’t right now. You can find him on Substack and I’ll put a link in the show notes. He really to, for my money, writes one of the most consistently interesting and engaging newsletters out there.

And if you haven’t discovered him yet, I think you’re gonna absolutely love him and you’ll learn a lot too. I always like learning [01:02:00] things,

right. If you know what I’m gonna do, I’m gonna pull some dead leaves out of my pond. I, I will leave you to spare you the scratching noises and probably me swearing ’cause my hands are cold. But I’ll see you next week. Take lots of care. Bye.